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  1. #81
    Stood in the Fire Recovery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    I don't think any of the mythic bosses in CN are hard, but I can't go clone myself 19 times and clear mythic CN. In the end, how hard we feel WoW is, is perceptual. Having access to DBM/WA makes PvE significantly easier IMO. It's just my opinion that PvE is easy once you know the strat. Obviously if someone isn't mechanically adept or can't parse 80% or higher for their ilvl, they won't be downing much more than the first 2 bosses.
    Any raid / boss will be easy when you perfectly min maxed your character and raid and you know the fights like the back of your hand.

    I dont understand why people want to compare the complexity of current raids that people have been running for a year or less to the complexity of raids that people have seen for over a decade.

    Are the raids now harder mechanically than the raid of the past? Yes. 100%. No argument here.

    Is it still true that if you put in the time to learn your character and the fight that it becomes 100% easier? Yes. The thing about good ole dragon slaying is that those dragons are going to do the same exact thing, EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU FIGHT THEM. They will never do anything new.

    Even if blizzard devs give bosses a pool of abilities that a boss can use and randomize them every encounter, eventually either the player or an addon will memorize those abilities and what they do and you will be able to prepare.

    In conclusion, my opinion is that all of raiding is easy. Every raid, every boss, every difficulty. Eventually I will learn it all to a T and be able to complete the fight with zero errors. This is true starting at classic and ending at shadowlands currently. Some people do this faster than others. That is the only point of separation from top 10 guilds and casual "will down it at some point this expansion" guilds.

    Who is better?

    Guild A: down boss after 100 pulls in 48 hours.
    Guild B: down boss after 100 pulls in 5 weeks.
    Guild C: down boss after 200 pulls in 48 hours.
    Guild D: down boss after 200 pulls in 5 weeks.
    Last edited by Recovery; 2021-04-12 at 04:31 PM.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    Any raid / boss will be easy when you perfectly min maxed your character and raid and you know the fights like the back of your hand.

    I dont understand why people want to compare the complexity of current raids that people have been running for a year or less to the complexity of raids that people have seen for over a decade.

    Are the raids now harder mechanically than the raid of the past? Yes. 100%. No argument here.

    Is it still true that if you put in the time to learn your character and the fight that it becomes 100% easier? Yes. The thing about good ole dragon slaying is that those dragons are going to do the same exact thing, EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU FIGHT THEM. They will never do anything new.

    Even if blizzard devs give bosses a pool of abilities that a boss can use and randomize them every encounter, eventually either the player or an addon will memorize those abilities and what they do and you will be able to prepare.

    In conclusion, my opinion is that all of raiding is easy. Every raid, every boss, every difficulty. Eventually I will learn it all to a T and be able to complete the fight with zero errors. This is true starting at classic and ending at shadowlands currently. Some people do this faster than others. That is the only point of separation from top 10 guilds and casual "will down it at some point this expansion" guilds.
    The biggest issue with raiding isn’t really learning the fight perfectly, it’s hoping everyone else has learned the fight and doesn’t fuck up because of some dumb mistake lol.

    If you’re in a group where everyone has the fight memorized, basically any fight can be done on autopilot.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viikkis View Post

    The game is based on patch X.X.X so we know exactly how the classes and specs will play out

    Now I thought of this argument my self actually and would like some thoughts about this. Most likely the last boss of the expansion would be the least affected because it would be the closest to the actual scenario but it could have interesting impact for the earlier raid tiers.
    I was pointing this out to people before Classic launched, online and even at my job, it amazed me how many people didn't understand that the Molten Core wouldn't be like how it was when it originally launched.
    It went through nerfs and by the time the Classic patch was current, MC wasn't what it once was, that's for certain.
    Not saying we wouldn't likely still storm the raid, especially with less people simply auto-attacking, but I think it would have been harder.

    The final raid/boss is likely to be, as you said, least affected.
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    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowroguetbc View Post
    The biggest issue with raiding isn’t really learning the fight perfectly, it’s hoping everyone else has learned the fight and doesn’t fuck up because of some dumb mistake lol.

    If you’re in a group where everyone has the fight memorized, basically any fight can be done on autopilot.
    This is why you should kick anyone who is making mistakes on mechanics that are on farm. I understand an oopsie every now and then, but if you miss your soak and cause a wipe more than once during progression and you're expected to know that mechanic, you're gone.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    This is why you should kick anyone who is making mistakes on mechanics that are on farm. I understand an oopsie every now and then, but if you miss your soak and cause a wipe more than once during progression and you're expected to know that mechanic, you're gone.
    Eh I don’t play video games like this tbh, but that’s fine if you do lol. I grew out of this awhile ago.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowroguetbc View Post
    Eh I don’t play video games like this tbh, but that’s fine if you do lol. I grew out of this awhile ago.
    Ah, you dont kick / replace people who are holding the team back due to simple lack of effort? Interesting.. I wish I had your patience.

    I mean, i wouldnt be a turd about it. But a simple, "Hey man, youve had X pulls to learn this mechanic. We're even announcing it before it get here and youre not getting it. We're going to sit you for now and try you again later."
    Last edited by Recovery; 2021-04-12 at 04:50 PM.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    Ah, you dont kick / replace people who are holding the team back due to simple lack of effort? Interesting.. I wish I had your patience.

    I mean, i wouldnt be a turd about it. But a simple, "Hey man, youve had X pulls to learn this mechanic. We're even announcing it before it get here and youre not getting it. We're going to sit you for now and try you again later."
    Well if now you’re saying lack of effort, that’s a little different. Like if they are clearly not trying then yeah if I was the leader I’d remove them. If they are just new/bad I would keep working with them and most of the time we can clear it with them being bad anyway, excluding a few fights that I know. I also don’t raid in the SUPER SERIOUS NO FUCKING AROUND groups either.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowroguetbc View Post
    Well if now you’re saying lack of effort, that’s a little different. Like if they are clearly not trying then yeah if I was the leader I’d remove them. If they are just new/bad I would keep working with them and most of the time we can clear it with them being bad anyway, excluding a few fights that I know. I also don’t raid in the SUPER SERIOUS NO FUCKING AROUND groups either.
    Yeah, lack of effort to me is seeing a fight / mechanic 20 times and still not performing the mechanic. lol. Soaking for instance, how hard is it to move your character to a puddle or melee range when your screen flashes with bright animations and your headset is screaming in your ear? lol

    I mean geez, after seeing it 3 times, I'm already getting into a position to make the move, well before it's time. lol

    But its good that there is more than 1 type of group. Someone that doesnt cut it in my group can find a home in yours. Its healthy.

    Also, I guess our raid time has a little to do with how I run my raid team. We only raid 6 hours a week, so in order for us to progress, we require perfection quick.
    Last edited by Recovery; 2021-04-12 at 05:06 PM.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    Yeah, lack of effort to me is seeing a fight / mechanic 20 times and still not performing the mechanic. lol. Soaking for instance, how hard is it to move your character to a puddle or melee range when your screen flashes with bright animations and your headset is screaming in your ear? lol

    I mean geez, after seeing it 3 times, I'm already getting into a position to make the move, well before it's time. lol

    But its good that there is more than 1 type of group. Someone that doesnt cut it in my group can find a home in yours. Its healthy.

    Also, I guess our raid time has a little to do with how I run my raid team. We only raid 6 hours a week, so in order for us to progress, we require perfection quick.
    How can you actually recruit enough people if you boot them constantly?

  10. #90
    Energy. Power. My people are addicted to it. Their dependence made manifest after the Sunwell was destroyed. Welcome to the future...a pity you're too late to stop it. No one can stop me now. Selama ashal'anore.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    Yeah, lack of effort to me is seeing a fight / mechanic 20 times and still not performing the mechanic. lol. Soaking for instance, how hard is it to move your character to a puddle or melee range when your screen flashes with bright animations and your headset is screaming in your ear? lol

    I mean geez, after seeing it 3 times, I'm already getting into a position to make the move, well before it's time. lol

    But its good that there is more than 1 type of group. Someone that doesnt cut it in my group can find a home in yours. Its healthy.

    Also, I guess our raid time has a little to do with how I run my raid team. We only raid 6 hours a week, so in order for us to progress, we require perfection quick.
    Well you’re sort of jumping all over the place here lol. Yeah, if they wipe us literally TWENTY times then I would say they need to go. But your initial post was making it sound like if they aren’t performing the fight exactly like they need to, aside from maybe 1 mistake then they get kicked.

    To me, that’s not fun for anyone involved. Yes, if they are wiping you TWENTY times or something nuts then I would kick them, but I wouldn’t just kick them for not knowing fights and such. To me I play games for fun, and I understand a lot of other people do as well, I’m not expecting people to be watching videos and analyzing every single fight. That’s just not a fun raid environment that I like to be around.

    Don’t get me wrong, I get it, I’ve done and been in these raids before for quite some time. But this type of playing isn’t fun for me anymore. I’d rather jump into karazhan and only clear the first half with people while having fun and not making people feel like they are walking on eggshells, than to clear the full raid and have everyone on edge hoping they aren’t the one to fuck it up.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowroguetbc View Post
    Well you’re sort of jumping all over the place here lol. Yeah, if they wipe us literally TWENTY times then I would say they need to go. But your initial post was making it sound like if they aren’t performing the fight exactly like they need to, aside from maybe 1 mistake then they get kicked.

    To me, that’s not fun for anyone involved. Yes, if they are wiping you TWENTY times or something nuts then I would kick them, but I wouldn’t just kick them for not knowing fights and such. To me I play games for fun, and I understand a lot of other people do as well, I’m not expecting people to be watching videos and analyzing every single fight. That’s just not a fun raid environment that I like to be around.

    Don’t get me wrong, I get it, I’ve done and been in these raids before for quite some time. But this type of playing isn’t fun for me anymore. I’d rather jump into karazhan and only clear the first half with people while having fun and not making people feel like they are walking on eggshells, than to clear the full raid and have everyone on edge hoping they aren’t the one to fuck it up.
    Oh i thought i was pretty clear with my original comment:

    "This is why you should kick anyone who is making mistakes on mechanics that are on farm. I understand an oopsie every now and then, but if you miss your soak and cause a wipe more than once during progression and you're expected to know that mechanic, you're gone."

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    Oh i thought i was pretty clear with my original comment:

    "This is why you should kick anyone who is making mistakes on mechanics that are on farm. I understand an oopsie every now and then, but if you miss your soak and cause a wipe more than once during progression and you're expected to know that mechanic, you're gone."
    Yes, and this original statement is a LOT different than “if they are wiping you TWENTY times”.

  14. #94
    Stood in the Fire Recovery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    How can you actually recruit enough people if you boot them constantly?
    Who says i'm booting constantly? There are always eager people willing to jump in and earn a spot. We usually have anywhere from 15-40 people who are alts.

    Also, i dont necessarily gkick people. Usually swap them out and let them try again another time.

  15. #95
    As someone who has killed every endboss on the hardest difficulty ranging from world 90-300 since TBC.

    TBC is going to be very easy if youre guild is trying. People are going to outmuscle TBC from start to finish even Sunwell. Something like Illidan is a oneshot to 3 attempt boss if you are good.

    Wrath is where it starts to step up. Freya 3 keepers, Firefighter, Alone in the Darkness, HC Lich King 25 with 0-10% zone buffs is where the classic andys will start to feel the heat.

    Cataclysm, once you get to Ragnaros HC its almost modern mythic raids era of difficulty but not quite.

    MoP now were talking, Lei Shen and Garrosh is modern bosses which with no knowledge beforehand or maybe you have people who have killed it who can lead guilds through will take hundreds of attempts.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowroguetbc View Post
    Yes, and this original statement is a LOT different than “if they are wiping you TWENTY times”.
    Oh, you took 20 as I definitive / literal thing... got it.

    Put it this way then, I guess. First time on fight - boss has stack mechanic. By attempt 8 everyone except 2 people are stacking correctly. If by attempt 10, those 2 people dont have it, theyre replaced.

    Does that make sense? use any number youd like here. I like 10.

    Once the boss is on farm completely, there really is no excuse for mistakes. An oopsie every now and then is whatever.. But if youre consistently
    screwing up mechanics on bosses you one shot, youre replaced. THAT is lack of effort.
    Last edited by Recovery; 2021-04-12 at 05:37 PM.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    Oh, you took 20 as I definitive / literal thing... got it.

    Put it this way then, I guess. First time on fight - boss has stack mechanic. By attempt 8 everyone except 2 people are stacking correctly. If by attempt 10, those 2 people dont have it, theyre replaced.

    Does that make sense? use any number youd like here. I like 10.
    No I didnt it definitively, I’m pointing out your first statement was

    but if you miss your soak and cause a wipe more than once during progression and you're expected to know that mechanic, you're gone
    More than once, and ten-twenty times is a massively different thing. You understand this, certainly.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowroguetbc View Post
    No I didnt it definitively, I’m pointing out your first statement was



    More than once, and ten-twenty times is a massively different thing. You understand this, certainly.
    but if you miss your soak and cause a wipe more than once during progression and you're expected to know that mechanic, you're gone

    I guess youre missing that big text there, huh? You think i mean that someone is expected to know a mechanic after one attempt or with no attempts? come on man.

  19. #99
    25-man Ulduar hard modes would still be difficult, as would 10-man Sarth3D prior to out-gearing it (at which point you can zerg it). 25-man Heroic LK would still be hard until it was outgeared/nerfed.

    10-man heroic BoT and TotFW in Cataclysm would still be difficult, as they were never properly tuned (especially the Twilight Ascendant Council in 10-man BoT and everything in 10-man TotFW).

    Aside from that, I can't really say that anything else would be too difficult. By and large, the only really difficult fights would be the ones that had extreme/unbalanced tuning, like the ones that I just mentioned.
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  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    but if you miss your soak and cause a wipe more than once during progression and you're expected to know that mechanic, you're gone

    I guess youre missing that big text there, huh? You think i mean that someone is expected to know a mechanic after one attempt or with no attempts? come on man.
    No I’m not missing that at all, I pointed out that you swapped your arguments. You said first if they wipe more than once you’re gone, then you rattled off something like “so what if they are wiping your raid 20 or 10 times you just keep them?”

    These are two completely different scenarios and you know it lol.

    The “expected to know the fight” part doesn’t magically make your statements align with each other lol. You said one thing, then you said another, that’s what I’m talking to you about.

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