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  1. #101
    There is a reason most private servers buff their content. WoW gets progressively more difficult with every expansion but I think the pinnacle of raid difficulties were Tomb of Sargeras and Crucible of Storms. At the same time these are probably the worst raids in WoW history.

    Having established that older raids are generally easier than newer raids there is also a weird phenomenon that even though wotlk content is 12 years old now there are still people too bad to play an encounter with 2 mechanics properly.

    There are people out there who only played wotlk servers for 10 years now and they still suck at wotlk content.

    Considering that hardcore raiders who want to overcome a new challenge with each new raidtier will probably keep playing retail and classic players want a more social and relaxed experience cata would probably the point were raids will get hard for the classic playerbase. But for anyone who has cleared a mythic raid in the last 4 years WoD would probably the turning point.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    Who says i'm booting constantly? There are always eager people willing to jump in and earn a spot. We usually have anywhere from 15-40 people who are alts.

    Also, i dont necessarily gkick people. Usually swap them out and let them try again another time.
    This just hasn't been my experience in this game in a long time. Fielding 20 people at all is a challenge, and replacing them is really difficult.

    Even swapping to horde on a high pop server this expansion has barely helped.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Heroic Ragnaros 25 in appropriate gear and talents won't ever be easy.

    Also Alone in the Darkness 25 is only listed as being killed by 13 guilds on wowprogress in the 4 months before it was nerfed. Most guilds would get crushed by it.
    Alone in the darkness will be made easy with modern addons. The hard part was finding 5 debuffed targets in a stack of 20+ and taunt em out in time be4 they blew up and healed the others. With modern addons marking for the raid, sorting that out will be a peace of cake compared to the headache it was in wrath.

    Rag might hold up as a hard boss, but theres some strats that make the fight significantly easier aswell. Almost all guilds back then put too much focus on aoe classes to deal with the p2 adds. Which made the very high singletarget dps check in p3 hard to meet aswell as the softenrage of being overrun by dreadfire in p4.
    Adjusting setup to be more singletaret oriented but struggling more in p2 will be the key to make that fight smoother. (like the guild Envy did iirc).
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Viikkis View Post
    I doubt the players "sucked". The top players were always min maxing every aspect of the game scrutinizing every last detail. Wasn't Mr. Ion Hazzikostas the dude who did the math to prove that some fight in vanilla was mathematically impossible? Also created that forum Elitist Jerks along with the guild. They knew what they were doing. The general playerbase is a whole other thing but to claim that the top players sucked is ridiculous.
    Everything is relative. But comparing the top players of wrath to the top player of today... yes they sucked. I still stand by that statement.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    I like how you say this like it's fact when it's just complete hyperbole.
    WoW Players back in 2008-2010 sucked hard and water is wet. 2 Facts.

  5. #105
    Bloodsail Admiral Viikkis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Everything is relative. But comparing the top players of wrath to the top player of today... yes they sucked. I still stand by that statement.

    WoW Players back in 2008-2010 sucked hard and water is wet. 2 Facts.
    In Wrath Blizzard introduced the limited attempts model for some raids and I believe there was a 1 hour limit on Algalon etc. It was somewhat considered to be a sign of Blizzard admitting defeat against the top players where they'd need to put these artificial barriers to slow players down. I think the official statement for this was to "help raiders not to burn out due to raiding" but it really just felt like Blizzard had hard time coming up with challenging content and that issue continues to this date. The players are just so good at the cutting edge level that it's hard to design new bosses that are challenging enough but not impossible.

    If the players "sucked" there wouldn't have been need for these artificial barriers where you can try to beat the raid for X attempts until it locks down and you need to wait for reset.

  6. #106
    Algalon was not that hard. The hardest boss in that tier was No light, or Mimiron. The issue with Algalon is you only had so many attempts that could be made on him. So once you ran out of toons you could throw at him for the week on all the reset you used then it was a waiting game again.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Viikkis View Post
    In Wrath Blizzard introduced the limited attempts model for some raids and I believe there was a 1 hour limit on Algalon etc. It was somewhat considered to be a sign of Blizzard admitting defeat against the top players where they'd need to put these artificial barriers to slow players down. I think the official statement for this was to "help raiders not to burn out due to raiding" but it really just felt like Blizzard had hard time coming up with challenging content and that issue continues to this date. The players are just so good at the cutting edge level that it's hard to design new bosses that are challenging enough but not impossible.

    If the players "sucked" there wouldn't have been need for these artificial barriers where you can try to beat the raid for X attempts until it locks down and you need to wait for reset.
    The baseline difficulty of the content was extremely easy, that's why they made the "artificial barriers". But even with these the content was still very easy compared to the content of today. And the player completing it sucked compared to the top players of today. Ulduar "hard mode" wasn't hard. It was just "harder" than normal mode.

  8. #108
    Bloodsail Admiral Viikkis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    And the player completing it sucked compared to the top players of today.
    Just how exactly did players suck? Did the human brain evolve that much in 10 years? The players were doing everything they do today. Min/max, reroll optimal specs, use sophisticated addons and basically no life the game during progress raiding.

    What mystery did the players solve since Wrath? What was they key to "not suck"?

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Viikkis View Post
    Just how exactly did players suck? Did the human brain evolve that much in 10 years? The players were doing everything they do today. Min/max, reroll optimal specs, use sophisticated addons and basically no life the game during progress raiding.

    What mystery did the players solve since Wrath? What was they key to "not suck"?
    The human race has been improving in almost every area since 2008. And this also include video games. The top CSGO players today are much better than the top players in 2012. The top LOL players today are much better than the top players in 2010. And the top WoW players today are much better than the top players in 2008-2010. It's completely natural the we improve and get better just like the technologies we use. Gamers are in general much much better today than gamers were 10 years ago. And in that context then yes.. gamers absolutely sucked 10 years ago compared to the players of today. Disputing that is just disingenuous.

    I can see you're from Finland so I assume you want Paragon to be remembered as some of the best players in WoW history. But the truth is that the skill level of Paragon players back in the days is no where near the skill level of Echo/Limit players today.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2021-04-13 at 10:28 AM.

  10. #110
    Bloodsail Admiral Viikkis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I can see you're from Finland so I assume you want Paragon to be remembered as some of the best players in WoW history. But the truth is that the skill level of Paragon players back in the days is no where near the skill level of Echo/Limit players today.
    Couldn't care less actually. Was cool at the time for sure but those days are over. I've heard that some ex-Paragon players are still competing but I don't know in which guild.

    What you described as reason why they suck is relative to the time period. People always make the best out of the available technology. Like saying people sucked when they traveled with horses when they should've just invented cars already.

    But with the topic of this thread what is the expansion you think where things changed to harder?

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Viikkis View Post
    Couldn't care less actually. Was cool at the time for sure but those days are over. I've heard that some ex-Paragon players are still competing but I don't know in which guild.

    What you described as reason why they suck is relative to the time period. People always make the best out of the available technology. Like saying people sucked when they traveled with horses when they should've just invented cars already.

    But with the topic of this thread what is the expansion you think where things changed to harder?
    Fragi is an ex Paragon player and is playing for Echo today. He is a much better player today than he was back in 2008-2010.

    I understand what the thread is about, but please remember that I was originally answering a post about player skill back in Wrath, hence the topic of my posts.

    I get that technology plays a huge role and I have never disputed that. But it still doesn't change the simple fact: Gamers in 2008-2010 sucked compared to Gamers today. No knowledgeable person will dispute that.

  12. #112
    Cata onwards?
    If not, WoD onwards for sure.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Viikkis View Post
    Couldn't care less actually. Was cool at the time for sure but those days are over. I've heard that some ex-Paragon players are still competing but I don't know in which guild.

    What you described as reason why they suck is relative to the time period. People always make the best out of the available technology. Like saying people sucked when they traveled with horses when they should've just invented cars already.

    But with the topic of this thread what is the expansion you think where things changed to harder?
    It's not really different than how Olympic records are constantly smashed. Competitors in the 80s wouldn't even make modern teams. Great players of past eras would be mediocre now.

    I agree that it's relative, but that's the thing with rolling out these classic models - the game is old but the players aren't. Everything will be trivial (except arena, which is going to be hilariously degenerate)

  14. #114
    there will never be a "hard" raid,many years of practise and min/max have removed the hard part of the game,try going to a shadowlands private server in 15 years from now and you will see that CN mythic will be cleared in 2 days tops,knowledge is a game changer
    Classic was suppose to show people what hard raids was suppose to be but those 15 years in priv.servers really helped.
    Im not saying that a normal raiding guild would clear naxx in 1 hour but even those guilds that back then had no chance in naxx now they can clear it in a couple nights

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The human race has been improving in almost every area since 2008. And this also include video games. The top CSGO players today are much better than the top players in 2012. The top LOL players today are much better than the top players in 2010. And the top WoW players today are much better than the top players in 2008-2010. It's completely natural the we improve and get better just like the technologies we use. Gamers are in general much much better today than gamers were 10 years ago. And in that context then yes.. gamers absolutely sucked 10 years ago compared to the players of today. Disputing that is just disingenuous.

    I can see you're from Finland so I assume you want Paragon to be remembered as some of the best players in WoW history. But the truth is that the skill level of Paragon players back in the days is no where near the skill level of Echo/Limit players today.
    Saying the Humans race has ben improving is most likely not a full truth it has changed but improved not really and the most difficult famous games are quite old about 15 years or older....
    Today's gaming world is famous for its impatiens and it need to go fast.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Viikkis View Post
    People were saying ICC 25 Heroic was easy in 2009 when it came out? It wasn't cleared until the first nerf 5% I believe. And Paragon was considered a pretty good guild back then so surely it should've been easy for them.



    Cleared on day one for sure on classic, but by how many? Top guilds will not struggle but how about your average "dad guild"?



    I do think that WoD with its mythic difficulty raised the bar. No doubt about that.
    I remember my normal (now HC) guild in Siege of Orgrimmar and the 4th boss on mythic (aka old Heroic) was already very hard so I would definitely say end of MOP was already looking harder and harder.

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