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  1. #1

    (Bad) Mages pull aggro and die all the time in m+

    Anyone else notice this? I pug, and it seems like mages are the champions of dying in low level keys.

    I don’t know the rotation or anything but it seems like some players want to see how high they can make the number go right on the pull and they constantly die and cause chaos. It happens way more than any other class.

    I have been with mages who pull big numbers and don’t do this, but they seem fewer than those who do it.

    It’s depressing... best example is first pull HOA, we agree to lust and pull three packs. I charge in, thrash swipe first pack, moonfire a mob on second, then moonfire a mob on third. At this point mage has popped CDs, has aggro and continues pumping for all he’s worth until he dies. Adds are spread out across a 40 yard range, some are attacking mage, some running to me, some still casting at range.

    Are mages the new huntards? Is it that hard to wait until adds are grouped, THEN hit combust when you’re in a pug?
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-04-02 at 11:30 PM.
    Every single wow player should always try to make their own groups. Then you'd just have thousands of groups in group finder, without a single applicant.

  2. #2
    In general: you are right that certain specs should delay burst. And certain specs have problems with getting stuff, especially mediocre/bad tanks.

    But in general, if you have the problem very often, i'd say you have a problem. Mages are ranged, so one mob running away should be np. And in general, ranged are ranged, so you have time to react, just like the mage has time.

    In general, bears have low aggro, so i have seen many bears fighting with aggro. I barely see DHs or palas have aggro issues.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurosh View Post
    In general: you are right that certain specs should delay burst. And certain specs have problems with getting stuff, especially mediocre/bad tanks.

    But in general, if you have the problem very often, i'd say you have a problem. Mages are ranged, so one mob running away should be np. And in general, ranged are ranged, so you have time to react, just like the mage has time.

    In general, bears have low aggro, so i have seen many bears fighting with aggro. I barely see DHs or palas have aggro issues.
    It’s not a me problem. There’s no rocket science to getting aggro as a bear, it’s a very simple spec. And it doesn’t happen when the adds are already grouped. There’s no magical spell I can use to get aggro on all 7 spread out mobs at the start of hoa if a mage pops combust. He has to play smarter.

    I’m a KSM tank and I pull aggressively, which means there’s a few seconds of grouping at the start of a pull when I’m grabbing multiple packs. That’s inevitable, and if a mage pops combust before that he’s going to pull aggro.

    The other part that I find stunning is when a mage doesn’t ever adjust. I’ve been in dungeons where there are 12 deaths and the mage has 8, most from impatient combustion. After the 2nd or 3rd, wouldn’t you think they’d adjust? At what point do you say, ok this bear can’t get aggro as well as a dh, maybe I should delay combust by 4 seconds?

    I will also stipulate that it is also a pugging problem. Again, first pull hoa has 4 casters in it, and I can’t group them on my own, and many pugs will just let a caster sit out at range for 15 seconds instead of helping out with an interrupt. This type of thing means that the grouping task is harder in pugs - which to me again magnifies my confusion over many mages’ refusal to adjust.

    But it creates huge problems. Even if they don’t actually get hit because I get aggro back, it screws up my ability to kite because my aggro on other mobs is weaker as I run out to grab things back from the mage. It creates a cascading problem for the rest of the pull.

    The run that precipitated this post was not a run with a bad mage, it was a run with a good one, who did over 6k for the dungeon but never ever pulled aggro by bursting on pull. It was proof of concept that people can play better.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-04-02 at 11:57 PM.
    Every single wow player should always try to make their own groups. Then you'd just have thousands of groups in group finder, without a single applicant.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
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    Mages don't even need to delay at all if they actually use their kit properly. Mirror Images acts as a temporary threat ignore, it's useless for damage and the passive damage reduction isn't amazing so it's a cooldown that in most cases should be available for use. If the mage gets full aggro when images vanish it's only then that is it a tank issue, and even then Invisibility and Iceblock still exist.
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  5. #5
    Mages who die sound bad. There are just too many tricks to stay alive. As a mage, I rarely die. Also, I can't stand mages that don't run to the tank.

    But....I burst pretty quick, and never have tank issues.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    Mages don't even need to delay at all if they actually use their kit properly. Mirror Images acts as a temporary threat ignore, it's useless for damage and the passive damage reduction isn't amazing so it's a cooldown that in most cases should be available for use. If the mage gets full aggro when images vanish it's only then that is it a tank issue, and even then Invisibility and Iceblock still exist.
    That might be what these people are thinking, but I disagree. If the adds are spread out, in the kiting meta it's really frustrating/bad for a tank to be chasing down aggro a few seconds into a pull, and that's completely possible if the mage bursts the first trash pack while the tank is pulling the second and third.

    What a tank wants to do is get really, really solid aggro early in the pull when cds are up so he can kite and not lose it once he's out of cds. If he has to run after the adds that the mage pulled off him that limits his ability to build that solid aggro and limits ability to kite, because he ends up with mediocre threat on everything because he had to stop fighting the main pack to pull the 2 adds off the mage. So the mage might be thinking, it's fine he got aggro in the end, but the tank is thinking, god damn it my cds are down and if I kite I'm going to lose aggro, so ????

    What's interesting is, again I don't know the toolkit, but if you're blowing cds before adds are grouped, isn't that a dps loss? Why not just wait until they are grouped then hit combust? Yes you hit it like 5 seconds later, but you get to aoe on a larger pack. I think it's just that people like to see the big number on details early in the pull.

    And I really only see this problem with lolcombust mages. Sure it happens with melee sometimes, but they just die like melee always do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    Mages who die sound bad. There are just too many tricks to stay alive. As a mage, I rarely die. Also, I can't stand mages that don't run to the tank.

    But....I burst pretty quick, and never have tank issues.
    So I mean the question is really... if you're in halls of atonement, and you know that you're going to lust and burn down three packs on pull, when do you hit combust? Do you hit it as soon as the tank pulls the first pack (which many mages seem to do) or do you wait until the tank has pulled all 7 adds together?

    I don't know the class but to me it seems obvious that the answer is to wait until I can AOE all 7. And dude, I'm just happy if the mage doesn't run away, pulling the adds further and further away lol... I rarely see mages actually do something helpful like run to me if they are pulling aggro.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-04-03 at 05:20 AM.
    Every single wow player should always try to make their own groups. Then you'd just have thousands of groups in group finder, without a single applicant.

  7. #7
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Not so bad if you have md. But yea as a guardian druid i find i need a second or two. Just so I can BEARly hold on. aha
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Not so bad if you have md. But yea as a guardian druid i find i need a second or two. Just so I can BEARly hold on. aha
    Yes and that's another point... in some groups is ok, if the tank plays a spec that is better at getting threat (dh) or if he has md, the mage will be fine, but in other groups where that's not true he won't. And I get the sense that a lot of these mage players, instead of adjusting, just blame the tank and die over and over.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-04-03 at 12:16 PM.
    Every single wow player should always try to make their own groups. Then you'd just have thousands of groups in group finder, without a single applicant.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    What's interesting is, again I don't know the toolkit, but if you're blowing cds before adds are grouped, isn't that a dps loss? Why not just wait until they are grouped then hit combust? Yes you hit it like 5 seconds later, but you get to aoe on a larger pack. I think it's just that people like to see the big number on details early in the pull.
    I expect in a pickup group most mages have been burned by twitchy tanks moving out of their ground effects. At least in my experience it feels like that if you wait until packs are grouped they will immediately be moved by (bear) tanks. And seeing as a decent amount of fire (and frost) mage damage comes from the packs standing in our AoE ground effects it becomes ingrained that if you wait until the packs are gathered tanks will actively screw you over by moving out of these effects.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that for a lot of players the M+ overall dps is a fun sidegame to play so you want to beat the other dps at the end of the run. Considering that way mage cooldowns (and their reduction) work you want to have as much uptime as possible. So sitting on your 1 min cooldown for 5+ seconds feels bad.

    I agree though that most fire mages are too focused on dps to see what is going on with the other players in a group or the pack they are attacking. Clever use of mirror images and invisibility, as well as using frost nova and shimmer will ensure pulling agro is a minor issue. It is a minor dps loss, but being dead seems to be a bigger dps loss . I can imagine it happening once, but after that the mage should adjust.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    Mages who die sound bad. There are just too many tricks to stay alive. As a mage, I rarely die.
    Exactly - I'm generally the last one to die when there is a stuff up with trash, so much CC and defensive and stuff to try and keep them going until the tank gets back.

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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Yes and that's another point... in some groups is ok, if the tank plays a spec that is better at getting threat (dh) or if he has md, the mage will be fine, but in other groups where that's not true he won't. And I get the sense that a lot of these mage players, instead of adjusting, just blame the tank and die over and over.
    If the are popping combust before all the adds are grouped you already know they are not a good player. They are lowering their own damage potential

  12. #12
    Unfortunately it's also just a guardian issue, even if you play perfectly you have weak damage output and threat generation (and mob control, but that's a different issue). Having played both Guardian and Prot Pala in very high keys, the difference in DPS and threat generation is palpable. Unfortunately co-ordinating with the group is the only way around it, and making use of that 2second cooldown on taunt when Incarnation is up (which is itself ridiculous, needing a 2second CD on a taunt with your big 3minute damage cooldown up shows what bears are lacking).

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Sageless View Post
    I expect in a pickup group most mages have been burned by twitchy tanks moving out of their ground effects. At least in my experience it feels like that if you wait until packs are grouped they will immediately be moved by (bear) tanks. And seeing as a decent amount of fire (and frost) mage damage comes from the packs standing in our AoE ground effects it becomes ingrained that if you wait until the packs are gathered tanks will actively screw you over by moving out of these effects.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that for a lot of players the M+ overall dps is a fun sidegame to play so you want to beat the other dps at the end of the run. Considering that way mage cooldowns (and their reduction) work you want to have as much uptime as possible. So sitting on your 1 min cooldown for 5+ seconds feels bad.

    I agree though that most fire mages are too focused on dps to see what is going on with the other players in a group or the pack they are attacking. Clever use of mirror images and invisibility, as well as using frost nova and shimmer will ensure pulling agro is a minor issue. It is a minor dps loss, but being dead seems to be a bigger dps loss . I can imagine it happening once, but after that the mage should adjust.
    Ah this is a great example of why pugging can be such a mess!

    "Mage, why are you blowing your cds so early?"
    "Because the fucking tank is going to move out of my abilities!"

    "Tank, why are you so twitchy and moving all over the place?"
    "Because the fucking mage is blowing cds on the pull and pulling aggro!"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Healerme View Post
    Unfortunately it's also just a guardian issue, even if you play perfectly you have weak damage output and threat generation (and mob control, but that's a different issue). Having played both Guardian and Prot Pala in very high keys, the difference in DPS and threat generation is palpable. Unfortunately co-ordinating with the group is the only way around it, and making use of that 2second cooldown on taunt when Incarnation is up (which is itself ridiculous, needing a 2second CD on a taunt with your big 3minute damage cooldown up shows what bears are lacking).
    Curious what you mean about mob control because I don't see that. As guardian I have an aoe disorient, I can choose vortex or a knockback depending on affix, choose an aoe root or a single target stun, and because I play Tauren I have a AOE stun too, and my interrupt includes a charge. Only thing really missing is a slow, and I make up for that by being fast.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-04-03 at 02:21 PM.
    Every single wow player should always try to make their own groups. Then you'd just have thousands of groups in group finder, without a single applicant.

  14. #14
    Its a combination of bears having terrible snap aggro and mages having broken burst dmg.

    When you tank on your bear you need to tell him to wait a couple of seconds when they're grouped up.

  15. #15
    What happens is that Mage AoE is target uncapped, but not every tank ability is.

    It's just wonky interactions of the latest Blizz changes.

    Also, yes, unless the bear is popping a cooldown, he sure aint gonna keep aggro from huge burst.
    Honestly, the way the game is now, mythic+ requires DH or Paladin tanks to not run the risk of dying in big burst specs.
    I'm sure good players can make it work, but chances are that isn't what you will get.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2021-04-03 at 03:11 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Sageless View Post
    I expect in a pickup group most mages have been burned by twitchy tanks moving out of their ground effects. At least in my experience it feels like that if you wait until packs are grouped they will immediately be moved by (bear) tanks. And seeing as a decent amount of fire (and frost) mage damage comes from the packs standing in our AoE ground effects it becomes ingrained that if you wait until the packs are gathered tanks will actively screw you over by moving out of these effects.
    This is a point worth reiterating - there are too many bad tanks in lower keys that refuse to hold packs in aoe. It's not always a problem, but you have to look at your group comp - if you have a mage and an ele shaman for instance 60% of your aoe damage requires you not to constantly drag mobs around.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    This is a point worth reiterating - there are too many bad tanks in lower keys that refuse to hold packs in aoe. It's not always a problem, but you have to look at your group comp - if you have a mage and an ele shaman for instance 60% of your aoe damage requires you not to constantly drag mobs around.
    This is where we go round in circles, because my response is, as a tank in low keys, there’s no one to hear you scream as your health gets chunked down, as interrupts get missed, and you try to kite while the ele shaman blithely keeps dpsing instead of popping out an ele to help out.

    The number of times I’ve been desperately running around watching my health slowly but surely go to zero, only to see the shammy pop his elemental AFTER I’m dead, drives me up the wall. As soon as you hit 1300 io you start seeing treants and elementals everywhere (god bless all the boomkins who helped me reset necrotic last week with treants) but below that you just get a lot of dps popping CDs on pull, taking aggro, dying, and wondering why the tank suddenly ran halfway across the instance mid pull instead of using their utility to lend a hand.

    The reason I made this thread is it’s surprising to me that, specifically about burst, the mages I see in 12s or so haven’t yet figured out that they should delay, because I was assuming this happens all the time to them.

    And I think you guys helped get me an answer: it doesn’t happen all the time. If there’s a hunter in the group or it’s a pally or dh tanking it’s fine. So I think there are a lot of mages just popping CDs fast constantly and saying “bad tank” when it goes wrong.
    Every single wow player should always try to make their own groups. Then you'd just have thousands of groups in group finder, without a single applicant.

  18. #18
    It's not rocket surgery.

    Don't blame Mage burst. Don't exempt yourself.

    It's a team issue it seems, that the tank and DPS can't coordinate enough.

    Fire is expected to play aggressively (and has uncapped AoE) - pulling three packs, popping hero, and expecting anyone else to "wait for 3 sunders" is antiquated game play.

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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Xjan View Post
    It's not rocket surgery.

    Don't blame Mage burst. Don't exempt yourself.

    It's a team issue it seems, that the tank and DPS can't coordinate enough.

    Fire is expected to play aggressively (and has uncapped AoE) - pulling three packs, popping hero, and expecting anyone else to "wait for 3 sunders" is antiquated game play.

    Did convoke not work?
    As soon as all three packs are pulled, it's fine. The issue comes before all are pulled, when the mage starts combusting on the first pack as I'm targeting and pulling the next two with moonfire. I basically use two gcds on first pack, then two pulling the next two packs. There's not a druid in the world who can keep aggro off a combusting mage using 2 gcds to the mage's 4. I mean I could pull the first pack, convoke on them, then pull the other two and it would probably be ok (and not even convoke, just spam thrash with incarn), but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense when we have lust and are trying to aoe down 3 packs (just like it doesn't make sense to combust on two adds when 5 more are on the way).

    On that particular pull, the issue is less that the mage will die from the two adds because I have incarn up and can taunt, and more that once he has aggro on those two, we now have chaos and adds spread out all over the room which makes it very hard on me (both of those first two adds sometimes melee and sometimes cast, so they might run to him then stand there casting. On other pulls it's a bigger problem because I don't always have incarn.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-04-03 at 08:18 PM.
    Every single wow player should always try to make their own groups. Then you'd just have thousands of groups in group finder, without a single applicant.

  20. #20
    I guess you have this issue only with fire mages since you say combustion this, combustion that.

    Stop playing with fire mages. Problem solved.

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