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  1. #1
    The Lightbringer Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Post Punk rockers/anarchists and Libertarians, what is the difference?

    Besides the wardrobe?

    Seems they want all benefits of society n none of the responsibility, it all seems very narcissistic..

    this video showed up in youtube recommended after some metal songs which led metal kids in the 80s

    Most comments though are about Bernie looking the same


    Could a politician just walk around today in a mall n ask people questions?

  2. #2
    People should be more open minded? Terrible.
    People can express themselves freely? Terrible.
    This isn't a true democracy? Accurate.
    Supporting communism because they view it as a better way to ensure basic needs are met but rejecting authoritarian control over speech? Awful.
    Don't believe in total anarchy? Bad?
    Criticizing US foreign wars? Horrid.
    Supporting national sovereignty and opposing meddling in other countries? Bad?
    Public highschool education was pretty good and they're in community college now? Cool.
    Pointing out that not visually conforming to societal norms leaves them feeling rejected? Seems accurate.

    What was so objectionable about this interview, again? Were you trying to make some kind of point?

  3. #3
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Strange choice of video for the title... How about business man in clown suits?

    Edit: Ha! Can’t link the video, since Jello’s weiner is dangling about at the end... sorry, will have to just read:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jello_Biafra
    Last edited by Felya; 2021-04-06 at 07:08 PM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
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  4. #4
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Besides the wardrobe?

    Seems they want all benefits of society n none of the responsibility, it all seems very narcissistic..
    This is a pretty ridiculous strawman of what punk, anarchists, and libertarians believe. If you just wanted an excuse to flame libertarians and anarchists you could just go to reddit.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  5. #5
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Punks/anarchists are almost polar opposites to the far right wing version of liberalism(libertarians). Its about opposing corporations vs bootlicking them, its about having no hierarchical/weak hierarchical system vs a very strong one.


    none of the responsibility
    What does this even mean? responsibility to what?
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    it’s mostly a syndicalist fantasy that “the workers” are going to rise up, which is disconnected from the fact that “the workers” are your racist uncle and jerk co-workers who you don’t like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The election has passed and 58 million working class Americans stood up and proved that they are in fact your racist uncle and jerk co-workers.
    They really can't help but show disdain for the working class.

  6. #6
    Immortal Milchshake's Avatar
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    Sorry, but if you're hanging out in a mall. You're a poseur.

    "Just Asking Questions" off on a gaming forum. You're also a poseur.

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    People should be more open minded? Terrible.
    People can express themselves freely? Terrible.
    This isn't a true democracy? Accurate.
    Supporting communism because they view it as a better way to ensure basic needs are met but rejecting authoritarian control over speech? Awful.
    Don't believe in total anarchy? Bad?
    Criticizing US foreign wars? Horrid.
    Supporting national sovereignty and opposing meddling in other countries? Bad?
    Public highschool education was pretty good and they're in community college now? Cool.
    Pointing out that not visually conforming to societal norms leaves them feeling rejected? Seems accurate.

    What was so objectionable about this interview, again? Were you trying to make some kind of point?
    Take off your battle helmet for a moment...

    read what I wrote...you list lots of things many can agree on, different political sides can do that but when it comes down to actually putting politics in practice, these kids spoke of things they like or object to, but their general attitude is "get off my lawn!"...which is problematic, you can't have society if everyone is a recluse...like I said, they want all the benefits, but don't come to them thinking they want to lend a hand, that's tyranny in their eyes is what it sounds like..

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Take off your battle helmet for a moment...

    read what I wrote...you list lots of things many can agree on, different political sides can do that but when it comes down to actually putting politics in practice, these kids spoke of things they like or object to, but their general attitude is "get off my lawn!"...which is problematic, you can't have society if everyone is a recluse...like I said, they want all the benefits, but don't come to them thinking they want to lend a hand, that's tyranny in their eyes is what it sounds like..
    Very little of what they say falls under libertarianism short of the, "let folks do what they want.", which on a personal level which they're talking about jives with pretty progressive politics.

    Their attitude isn't, "Get off my lawn.", it's, "Stop being a dick to me for looking a bit different and just treat everyone with respect."

    What benefits do they want without thinking they need to lend a hand? Or that they'd be willing to lend a hand? I watched the full interview and there was nothing of that sort involved.

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    Punks/anarchists are almost polar opposites to the far right wing version of liberalism(libertarians). Its about opposing corporations vs bootlicking them, its about having no hierarchical/weak hierarchical system vs a very strong one.
    libertarianism isn't far right, nationalism is about looking out for your nation, libertarianism is about only looking out for yourself, the individual which is what punk/anarchists also believe in.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Very little of what they say falls under libertarianism short of the, "let folks do what they want.", which on a personal level which they're talking about jives with pretty progressive politics.

    Their attitude isn't, "Get off my lawn.", it's, "Stop being a dick to me for looking a bit different and just treat everyone with respect."

    What benefits do they want without thinking they need to lend a hand? Or that they'd be willing to lend a hand? I watched the full interview and there was nothing of that sort involved.
    When their world view is that they should go do their own thing, -only- , well, if we all did that, society would collapse.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    libertarianism isn't far right
    It is in many regards, especially economically. Socially it's not, which is why the joke has always been that libertarians are just conservatives that want to smoke weed with their same-sex spouse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    nationalism is about looking out for your nation
    It's about a slavish devotion to your nation more often than not, and often leads to authoritarianism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    libertarianism is about only looking out for yourself, the individual which is what punk/anarchists also believe in.
    Except for that part where they explicitly agree that they'd prefer a "true" communist society where everyone is equal and peoples basic needs are met.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    When their world view is that they should go do their own thing, -only- , well, if we all did that, society would collapse.
    That's not it at all. They're rejecting much of existing society and are critical of it. You don't appear to have actually watched this video you linked.

  11. #11
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    I've met quite a few punks in my lifetime and none of them was only looking out for themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  12. #12
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    FYI, here is the follow up:

    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  13. #13
    "Mike Blair/Michele Perry: Mall Punk"

    That's quite a title.

    Those two have become nice middle aged punks.

  14. #14
    "Punk rockers" are not anarchists or libertarians, per se. That is some gross misunderstanding or foolish generalizing.
    "It's a big club. And you ain't in it. It is also the club they use to beat you with." - George Carlin

  15. #15
    The Lightbringer Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    It is in many regards, especially economically. Socially it's not, which is why the joke has always been that libertarians are just conservatives that want to smoke weed with their same-sex spouse.


    It's about a slavish devotion to your nation more often than not, and often leads to authoritarianism.
    its originally a reaction to unchecked authoritarianism of kings that lived in a bubble and saw the economy as someone elses burden and no responsibility, except to wage war..it's giving agency to a group from those who thought they should have none..but yes, all political ideas have bad sides too.

    Except for that part where they explicitly agree that they'd prefer a "true" communist society where everyone is equal and peoples basic needs are met.
    that's only possible in a utopia society where the robots do all the labor..

    That's not it at all. They're rejecting much of existing society and are critical of it. You don't appear to have actually watched this video you linked.
    I did watch it, like I wrote before, they say things many can agree on, all political groups can do that, but one has to be able to put their specific views for society into practice, and well, to be "left alone" and hope everyone else behaves, seems very contradictory, lots of wishful thinking, no personal responsibility...it's like religion, only works if everyone plays nice, which they don't so people need instead to come together n agree on basic shit for things to function "the leave me alone" leads to nowhere..

  16. #16
    Pandaren Monk The Casualty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    libertarianism isn't far right, nationalism is about looking out for your nation, libertarianism is about only looking out for yourself, the individual which is what punk/anarchists also believe in.
    While the term "punk" is an absolutely huge umbrella, a huge amount of the music and ideology that came out of it was left-wing and socialist. Look at The Clash, Social Distortion, Bad Religion, Anti-Flag, Billy Bragg etc...

    Political activism to support marginalized groups is a huge theme and that has spanned back further than I've been alive.

  17. #17
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    Sorry, but if you're hanging out in a mall. You're a poseur.

    "Just Asking Questions" off on a gaming forum. You're also a poseur.
    Ah, yes, that damn youth these days just ""hanging out"" and stuff, back in my day, well ill tell ya
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    it’s mostly a syndicalist fantasy that “the workers” are going to rise up, which is disconnected from the fact that “the workers” are your racist uncle and jerk co-workers who you don’t like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The election has passed and 58 million working class Americans stood up and proved that they are in fact your racist uncle and jerk co-workers.
    They really can't help but show disdain for the working class.

  18. #18
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Libertarianism, in the American sense, is definitively far-right in nature.

    Left-libertarianism exists, but that looks more like market socialism than anything American libertarians would recognize.

    its originally a reaction to unchecked authoritarianism of kings that lived in a bubble and saw the economy as someone elses burden and no responsibility, except to wage war..it's giving agency to a group from those who thought they should have none..but yes, all political ideas have bad sides too.
    This is flatly incorrect. On essentially every level.

    Nationalism pushes authoritarian approaches more than the obverse.
    Nationalism has no contradiction with monarchism, though it generally emerged after monarchies had been deposed or stepped back, to create a sense of national identity separate from the monarch now that the void had been created. But nationalist sentiments including the monarchy exist; that's true in the UK pretty clearly, for instance.
    Nationalism is not about "giving agency" in any respect whatsoever.

    that's only possible in a utopia society where the robots do all the labor..
    False. If we can meet people's needs in a capitalist system, then we could do so in a communist one. Arguing otherwise is just empty capitalist jingoism.

  19. #19
    A lot of libertarians are big fans of rock music. I visited liberty festivals and yeah, you can tell we are very much into this. Dunno much about punk though.

    Libertarian here. No. we are not "far right", we hold the "live and let live" mentality.
    Don't like marijuana? Don't use it, like it? Fine, as long as you are 18 or older.
    Don't like video games? Don't use it, like it? Fine, as long as the games are age appropriate (if you are 18 or older idc what games you play).
    Don't like the death penalty? Don't use it, like it? Fine, as long as you keep it IN YOUR STATE ONLY and don't try to impose it on other jurisdictions.
    Don't like the death penalty abolitionist movement? then keep the death penalty, like it? Fine, as long as you keep it IN YOUR STATE ONLY and don't try to impose it on other jurisdictions.

    When I was a minor, I used to like liberals a lot more than I do now, but then I realize they were very controlling, like trying to ban the death penalty on the federal level, telling states how their abortion laws should be, and not to mention the huge issue of cancel culture and guilt by association. I think modern progressives could learn a lot by at least somewhat merging their ideology with libertarianism. I think most progressives are decent people, but their ideology as of now is pretty extreme and controlling.

    We support freedom of speech, I feel extremely strongly that people should be able to say anything they want, so long as they are not part of a criminal conspiracy, illegally violating trade secrets or the use of csem/cp, that state should not be involved. I despise racists, but I strongly support their freedom of speech to preach hate, and to even advocate for genocide as long as they don't attempt it. I believe that we really should question laws which criminalize so called "death threats" and really question whether they violate the first amendment. It's one thing if someone is part of a conspiracy to commit murder, an entirely different thing when they are simply trying to intimidate or put the other person in fear. You have the right to be safe, you don't have the right to feel safe. I care about safety, not so much about feelings.

    As libertarians, we believe that the free market is the best way to run society. Obviously there are limits, for example, I think there is credible evidence universal healthcare on the catastrophic level is both affordable and a benefit, but this does not mean you get to raise taxes through the roof and red tape all our industries. Federal regulations in particular are a huge interference in the economic development in various states. Even my state, Texas literally set up our own electric grid to get around this over regulation crap.

  20. #20
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sole-Warrior View Post
    Don't like the death penalty? Don't use it, like it? Fine, as long as you keep it IN YOUR STATE ONLY and don't try to impose it on other jurisdictions.
    Don't like the death penalty abolitionist movement? then keep the death penalty, like it? Fine, as long as you keep it IN YOUR STATE ONLY and don't try to impose it on other jurisdictions.
    Just to make the point; supporting authoritarian measures like supporting state executionary powers flies pretty directly against supposed libertarian values, like political freedom, individual rights, limited government, and non-aggression/peace.

    This is why people largely don't take libertarians very seriously, politically; libertarians are almost never consistent about what they supposedly believe and support.

    When I was a minor, I used to like liberals a lot more than I do now, but then I realize they were very controlling, like trying to ban the death penalty on the federal level, telling states how their abortion laws should be, and not to mention the huge issue of cancel culture and guilt by association.
    Imagine thinking that opposing the death penalty is somehow more authoritarian than supporting it.

    Like, this makes no sense on any level.

    As libertarians, we believe that the free market is the best way to run society.
    And yet, you took issue with "cancel culture", which is just the free market in operation.

    Seriously, is there any maxim you state that you actually believe to be true? Because you're not being honest about this stuff, at all, here. You're contradicting yourself every second sentence, practically.

    Obviously there are limits, for example, I think there is credible evidence universal healthcare on the catastrophic level is both affordable and a benefit, but this does not mean you get to raise taxes through the roof and red tape all our industries.[/quote]

    "Catastrophic level"? What the hell are you even saying here?

    Federal regulations in particular are a huge interference in the economic development in various states. Even my state, Texas literally set up our own electric grid to get around this over regulation crap.
    You mean the system that was an absolute and colossal failure and led to Texans freezing to death this last winter?

    Imagine defending that decision in the aftermath of that tragic failure of basic infrastructure management.

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