1. #2161
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post


    There's multiple branches of anarchism and you can't control how other people adopt the ideas so I'm not even sure why you're wasting your time.


    .
    This argument is complete and utter nonsense. A politicial ideology has defined parameters and simple ignoring them so you claim the title is bullshit. If we follow your fucking logic mussolini could call himself a libertarian Marxist and we'd have to accept that because we can't tell people they can't identify with an ideology they don't actually fucking support.

    Its basically just exposing how utterly ignorant and uneducated you are about actual anarchism and socialist thought. It's the most utterly intellectually bankrupt bullshit, on the same level as the dudes who unironically call nazis socialists and get a paycheck for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    This argument is complete and utter nonsense. A politicial ideology has defined parameters and simple ignoring them so you claim the title is bullshit. If we follow your fucking logic mussolini could call himself a libertarian Marxist and we'd have to accept that because we can't tell people they can't identify with an ideology they don't actually fucking support.

    Its basically just exposing how utterly ignorant and uneducated you are about actual anarchism and socialist thought. It's the most utterly intellectually bankrupt bullshit, on the same level as the dudes who unironically call nazis socialists and get a paycheck for it.
    Anarchy doesn't have defined parameters that says there can't be capitalism and how would you even stop people from practicing capitalism without the use of authority/coercion? An anarchist can't use authority and force against capitalists because then their not rejecting authority anymore but are simply trying to become the new authority figures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Anarchy doesn't have defined parameters.
    It does indeed and thats really all anyone has to read to understand that you don't know a single fucking thing about this conversation. They are of course free to practice capitalism, they will simple no longer be anarchists.Theirs of course a wide variety of thought among anarchists about what to do with respect to the capitalists but their is no disagreement that the capitalists cannot be anarchists.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2021-04-18 at 10:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #2164
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    No that's not true. Also it wouldn't matter even if 100% of people agreed because popularity never determines whether an argument is correct.
    No,it determines the definition of a word, try to keep up.
    And an ideology is also defined by those who push for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It does indeed and thats really all anyone has to read to understand that you don't know a single fucking thing about this conversation. They are of course free to practice capitalism, they will simple no longer be anarchists.
    We'll have to agree to disagree since I see no reason to believe capitalism and anarchy are mutually exclusive. If anything a stateless and voluntary society would supercharge capitalism. But if you think anarchy would kill capitalism then I'm not sure why you would be so bothered by AnCaps instead of welcoming them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree since I see no reason to believe capitalism and anarchy are mutually exclusive.
    Because you are ignorant of the actual history of anarchist thought and anarchist thinkers. This does not change the fact that capitalism is incompatable with anarchism. Capitalism requires private property. Private property is antithetical to everything that anarchism stands for it. Its not a case of agreeing to disagree you are simple ignorant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    It’s not necessarily a singular ideology though. Just like democracy. If we use your school of thought there are very few democracies in the world.
    Democracy has a fairly wide latitude in terms of what it allows but even thats besides the point. Nobody would actual suggest mussolinis Italy was democratic (unless they were a propogandist or drank the kool aid). Because of course its a fascist Republic that stands against the principles of democracy. Capitalism stands against the principles of anarchy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-market_anarchism

    And private property isn't antithetical to everything anarchism stands for, they just call it personal property.
    Anarchists make a distinction between private property and possession. Possession is not inherently against anarchist principles but private property is. That is of course still anti capitalist. Yes anarchism has a wide array of differing beliefs on how to approach anarchism. None of them are capitalist. Private property is antithetical to everything anarchism stands for.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-market_anarchism

    And private property isn't antithetical to everything anarchism stands for, they just call it personal property.

    - - - Updated - - -



    As does anarchism. There are many schools of thought and they all disagree on the extent to which things should be taken. Pretending there's one rigid definition is silly. Just like with Libertarianism.
    And none of them are capitalist. Just like their are no fascist democracies. Unless you're ignorant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Not sure what you think the free-market part is all about...
    I have neither the time nor the desire to educate you.

    https://theanarchistlibrary.org/libr...aq-03-17#toc17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Because you are ignorant of the actual history of anarchist thought.
    I only care about the merit of the ideas and not the history of anarchism. It's irrational to care about the labels but if it bothers you so much then anarcho-capitalists can just identify as voluntaryists instead of anarchists. Same concept but different label.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I only care about the merit of the ideas and not the history of anarchism. It's irrational to care about the labels but if it bothers you so much then anarcho-capitalists can just identify as voluntaryists instead of anarchists. Same concept but different label.
    Not even remotely similar. The concepts are as wide apart as claiming the fascists were socialists. Try again.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Yeah, different schools all love to call each other phonies. It’s almost like Libertarians.
    Nope. We only call the ancaps phonies. You didn't bother to read the link so not only do you not wish to be educated you evidently prefer to remain ignorant.

    I'm done. Stay ignorant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #2171
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Not sure what you think the free-market part is all about...
    And you can't have a free market without capitalism... because?


    From your own link even,
    It is associated with left-libertarians[4][9] such as Kevin Carson and Gary Chartier, who consider themselves anti-capitalists and socialists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Not even remotely similar. The concepts are as wide apart as claiming the fascists were socialists. Try again.
    Okay so voluntaryism isn't a part of anarchism? In my opinion they share the same core principle but I suppose it's a good thing if they are separated because "anarchy" tends to have a negative connotation where as "voluntary" has a positive connotation.

  13. #2173
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I frankly don't give a shit when it comes to your feeling about anarchy. You don't actually understand what anarchy represents and that's why you feel comfortable lumping in ancaps with the wider anarchist tradition. I wasn't really making a case for anarchy anyway. It is not nonsensical to dismiss people who claim to represent an ideology while having not the foggiest clue what that idiocy represents. In the same sense that the 3rd Reich wasn't socialist

    You can't really answer any of the arguments I made for dismissing the claims of so called ancaps and instead you'd rather derail the discussion. Its fine, you're ignorant of socialist and anarchist thought but please don't pretend to understand things you haven't a clue about.
    You're asserting that "they haven't the foggiest clue what that idiocy represents." If you were a God or some infallible philosopher, I would take your writ as truth.

    Seeing as how I believe you to be neither, it appears you must argue your point like a normal person, without dismissing the position hastily and without proper cause.

    You've only offered arguments to why you don't adhere to ancap philosophy. You've failed to establish that it isn't truly an anarchist tradition. Restating for a third or forth time why you think it ends in something bad is simply a critique of the philosophy. So don't offer criticism as a substitute for classification.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Once again, if you are talking about the impact punishments have on them, then how many years should Bernie Madoff have been sentenced to?
    I am not talking about prison time. I don't have to pretend all crimes are comparable just to make you happy. Why would you think murder is comparable to jaywalking, are you insane? You can keep minimal sentencing for all kinds of crimes, that doesn't change the impact fines have.

    You are equating two very different things for consistency’ sake, which is quite ironic considering how inconsistent you are yourself all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Equality under the law means same protections regardless of who it is, and same punishments, regardless of who it is.
    There is no difference in punishment. It has the same effect on everyone punished. You just want wealthy to fell no punishment, that's what you're currently arguing for. That equality under the law means wealthy people can safely ignore a good portion of laws because the punishment they bring with them has no effect on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    But, at least we're past your attempt to say the wealthy get more from government.
    I am not, you just ignored all of my attempts at explaining it. You literally ignored 95% of the post to just talk about what the word equally means. And this very argument right above is also an example of the wealthy getting more from government in being able to safely ignore all laws that just carry a fine with them. That's a benefit only for the wealthy.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  15. #2175
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    I am not talking about prison time. I don't have to pretend all crimes are comparable just to make you happy. Why would you think murder is comparable to jaywalking, are you insane? You can keep minimal sentencing for all kinds of crimes, that doesn't change the impact fines have.

    You are equating two very different things for consistency’ sake, which is quite ironic considering how inconsistent you are yourself all the time.



    There is no difference in punishment. It has the same effect on everyone punished. You just want wealthy to fell no punishment, that's what you're currently arguing for. That equality under the law means wealthy people can safely ignore a good portion of laws because the punishment they bring with them has no effect on them.



    I am not, you just ignored all of my attempts at explaining it. You literally ignored 95% of the post to just talk about what the word equally means. And this very argument right above is also an example of the wealthy getting more from government in being able to safely ignore all laws that just carry a fine with them. That's a benefit only for the wealthy.
    Of course you're not talking about jail time, because that blows up your entire narrative. This is just another time where you want the wealthy to pay more, but when it doesn't work in your favor, like when old, rich assholes like Maddoff commit a crime, you scamper away.

    There is literally a difference in punishment, that is what you are calling for. You are quite literally calling for punishing people more, because they are wealthy.

    You do realize your entire argument about taxation and paying for the massive government you want, rests on your attempt to claim something as a fact, right? If wealthy don't in fact get more from society and the government, then you have no cause (other than being malicious and selfish) to push the burden on them. What you have not done, is even come close to establishing that fact. In fact, you've managed to show the opposite to be true.

  16. #2176
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Of course you're not talking about jail time, because that blows up your entire narrative.
    My entire narrative was that fines should have equal effect on everyone.

    You counter with, but what about jail time? Is jail time just a fine to you?

    What about jail time? Jail time has equal effect on everyone, namely being in prison for x amount of time. Well, one could argue that the wealthy get lighter sentencing or go to better prisons, so not entirely equal effects, but you get the point, probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    This is just another time where you want the wealthy to pay more, but when it doesn't work in your favor, like when old, rich assholes like Maddoff commit a crime, you scamper away.
    You're trying to straw man yourself out of answering questions. That is all you're doing right now, well and always actually. You ignored 95% of my post and accuse me of scampering away?

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    There is literally a difference in punishment, that is what you are calling for. You are quite literally calling for punishing people more, because they are wealthy.
    Yeah, there is currently a difference in the effects of those punishments. You like it that way, you think it's I don't know, fair, their right to ignore fines?

    But go ahead, explain how being able to ignore fines while others can't is equality. That'll be fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You do realize your entire argument about taxation and paying for the massive government you want, rests on your attempt to claim something as a fact, right? If wealthy don't in fact get more from society and the government, then you have no cause (other than being malicious and selfish) to push the burden on them. What you have not done, is even come close to establishing that fact. In fact, you've managed to show the opposite to be true.
    Ignorance is bliss.

    They get better public education. (apparently, not a fact according to you)
    They use public infrastructure more. (apparently, not a fact according to you, all parcels are literally delivered by Bezos himself)
    They get to have more influence on politics. (apparently, not a fact according to you, despite you also defending that so idk, schrödingers fact maybe)
    They are able to ignore fines and get better defense in court. (apparently, also not a fact)
    They get overall better healthcare and don't have to fear for going broke because of a medical emergency (yeah, yeah, not a fact)
    They get to use loopholes to pay less in taxes. (I know, not a fact, just hearsay)

    All of these things are systemic, some even systematic, part of society, government related. Do you get it now or are you pretending all those things, even the ones you defend, don't exist?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  17. #2177
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    My entire narrative was that fines should have equal effect on everyone.

    You counter with, but what about jail time? Is jail time just a fine to you?

    What about jail time? Jail time has equal effect on everyone, namely being in prison for x amount of time. Well, one could argue that the wealthy get lighter sentencing or go to better prisons, so not entirely equal effects, but you get the point, probably.



    You're trying to straw man yourself out of answering questions. That is all you're doing right now, well and always actually. You ignored 95% of my post and accuse me of scampering away?



    Yeah, there is currently a difference in the effects of those punishments. You like it that way, you think it's I don't know, fair, their right to ignore fines?

    But go ahead, explain how being able to ignore fines while others can't is equality. That'll be fun.



    Ignorance is bliss.

    They get better public education. (apparently, not a fact according to you)
    They use public infrastructure more. (apparently, not a fact according to you, all parcels are literally delivered by Bezos himself)
    They get to have more influence on politics. (apparently, not a fact according to you, despite you also defending that so idk, schrödingers fact maybe)
    They are able to ignore fines and get better defense in court. (apparently, also not a fact)
    They get overall better healthcare and don't have to fear for going broke because of a medical emergency (yeah, yeah, not a fact)
    They get to use loopholes to pay less in taxes. (I know, not a fact, just hearsay)

    All of these things are systemic, some even systematic, part of society, government related. Do you get it now or are you pretending all those things, even the ones you defend, don't exist?
    That's the thing, if it's about impacting their lives, in your eyes, older people should not have to serve as long of sentences. If you ant equitable, and not equal outcomes, then at least be consistent about it.

    Now, circling back to the entire basis of your desire to push all the taxes you want on the wealthy, most of the things you mentioned... they paid for out of their own pocket. One of the things you mention is an objective lie, because the evidence was already presented.

    They get better PRIVATE education.

    Your claim of using more public infrastructure... still hasn't been proven.

    They do sometimes have more influence in politics, because they spend more on things like advertising... just like BLM and Planned parenthood.

    They don't ignore fines, and they pay more for lawyers... a private choice. This has nothing to do with government, and is akin to complaining that they own nicer cars.

    They get better healthcare, because they pay for it. Once again, this is a private choice.

    They pay more in taxes, both in raw numbers and as a percentage of their income. This is simply a lie you are perpetuating.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2021-04-19 at 12:40 PM.

  18. #2178
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That's the thing, if it's about impacting their lives, in your eyes, older people should not have to serve as long of sentences. If you ant equitable, and not equal outcomes, then at least be consistent about it.
    Well, considering people die at some point it's pretty hard to make everything equal. I mean, you can't make old people live longer to serve the same time in jail. Other things, like the effect fines have on a person can be made equal.

    Just answer this one little question: What do you think is the purpose of fines?

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Now, circling back to the entire basis of your desire to push all the taxes you want on the wealthy, most of the things you mentioned... they paid for out of their own pocket. One of the things you mention is an objective lie, because the evidence was already presented.
    Circling back to your straw man, brilliant move. Which one is the lie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    They get better PRIVATE education.
    Public school funding is based on property tax. Maybe you just don't understand what that entails to. Public schools in rich neighborhoods are better funded than public schools in poor neighborhoods. Do you understand it now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Your claim of using more public infrastructure... still hasn't been proven.
    That's like, basic logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    They do sometimes have more influence in politics, because they spend more on things like advertising... just like BLM and Planned parenthood.
    Ah, so they do, you agree with that. At least something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    They don't ignore fines, and they pay more for lawyers... a private choice. This has nothing to do with government, and is akin to complaining that they own nicer cars.
    Jeebus, arguing semantics, the last resort of those without arguments.

    I mean, you ignored my simple example, an example an 8-year-old would understand. Being able to pay more is a choice? Poor people just don't have that choice - you know - equality. Everyone's supposed to be equal before the law, the stuff you supposedly love, unless they have vast amounts of money to spend, then they get a better defense, making the system quite obviously unequal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    They get better healthcare, because they pay for it. Once again, this is a private choice.
    Ah, it's a choice. Again, being able to pay for healthcare is a choice. Got it. Poor people just choose not to being able to pay for healthcare. Yeup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    They pay more in taxes, both in raw numbers and as a percentage of their income. This is simply a lie you are perpetuating.
    https://americansfortaxfairness.org/...thy-americans/

    Yeah, a lie.

    So far equality to you is when you have more money you can get the things you need. (NEED, not WANT, I know you're going to ignore that word, but I wanted to emphasize it anyway.)
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  19. #2179
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Well, considering people die at some point it's pretty hard to make everything equal. I mean, you can't make old people live longer to serve the same time in jail. Other things, like the effect fines have on a person can be made equal.

    Just answer this one little question: What do you think is the purpose of fines?



    Circling back to your straw man, brilliant move. Which one is the lie?



    Public school funding is based on property tax. Maybe you just don't understand what that entails to. Public schools in rich neighborhoods are better funded than public schools in poor neighborhoods. Do you understand it now?



    That's like, basic logic.



    Ah, so they do, you agree with that. At least something.



    Jeebus, arguing semantics, the last resort of those without arguments.

    I mean, you ignored my simple example, an example an 8-year-old would understand. Being able to pay more is a choice? Poor people just don't have that choice - you know - equality. Everyone's supposed to be equal before the law, the stuff you supposedly love, unless they have vast amounts of money to spend, then they get a better defense, making the system quite obviously unequal.



    Ah, it's a choice. Again, being able to pay for healthcare is a choice. Got it. Poor people just choose not to being able to pay for healthcare. Yeup.



    https://americansfortaxfairness.org/...thy-americans/

    Yeah, a lie.

    So far equality to you is when you have more money you can get the things you need. (NEED, not WANT, I know you're going to ignore that word, but I wanted to emphasize it anyway.)
    And through all that, the wealthy still pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes, as has been shown.

    You whined that the wealthy had better health care, because they fucking paid for it in the private sector.

    This isn't a matter of semantics, this is you getting caught pushing a bullshit narrative, one where you damn well know you don't have the data to back it up. Instead, you are pushing talking points, because you got called out on your bullshit. It has already been shown that to cover the deficit, and have only the top 1% pay for it, their tax burden would need to be tripled.

    I get that this is what you want, but that's because you're being selfish.

  20. #2180
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Some of them pay more percentage wise. Many utilize loopholes to pay less than their employees.
    The same goes for people of every income level. That's no different than child tax credits, or mortgage interest deductions.

    When taken as a whole, they pay a higher percentage of their incomes than the other income levels.

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