1. #2301
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    He can, but if you go all the way to his conclusion you discover he doesn’t actually want any government. And he hates what that actually makes him.
    Are you back to calling me an anarchist?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Yes, because you are also arguing that your taxes being too low, is a burden on future generations.



    No, you forgot one and the conclusion...

    3) ???
    —————-
    Victory!!!
    Nope, cut spending.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Where is the government crippling you? I mean we all get that you'll never fully recover from the Tennessee whiskey regulation, but you're arguing as if there's 1000's and 1000's of unneeded regulations that are crushing businesses to death.

    What are they?
    That has been explained. This is about more individual liberty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  2. #2302
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Are you back to calling me an anarchist?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Nope, cut spending.
    Corporatist. Please keep up. You want corporations to own our lives with zero government oversight.

  3. #2303
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    68,102
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Do I need to explain what lowering the tax burden means?

    If so, then we have a real serious problem.
    I know what it means.

    I'm asking you to defend why you'd think it's better for everyone that we do so. So far, when I do, you just start insulting me for daring to ask.

    Well, let's do it the easy way.

    1) The government lowers taxes, therefore requiring you to give less of your income in taxes.

    2) You pay less in taxes, so have more of your own money to spend.

    Holy shit, that's all the steps.
    Except now I have to consider all the programs I'm no longer benefiting from, or which are doing less to protect other citizens, as a result of your choice to reduce spending. Most of which are more cost-effective than any private alternative, to boot.

    So I'm really not seeing the advantage, here. "More money in my wallet" is not a freebie. It comes at an identifiable cost, both directly and indirectly.

    I know, silly me, actually giving a shit about my fellow citizens and their welfare.

  4. #2304
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    All I see is someone complaining about the problem and then tries to make money off the same problem. Again, no one is shocked.
    If people are going to make stupid choices, I have no problem using it to my advantage. This is especially the case when they were warned for years about those stupid choices.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Corporatist. Please keep up. You want corporations to own our lives with zero government oversight.
    So, do I, or do I not want government?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I know what it means.

    I'm asking you to defend why you'd think it's better for everyone that we do so. So far, when I do, you just start insulting me for daring to ask.



    Except now I have to consider all the programs I'm no longer benefiting from, or which are doing less to protect other citizens, as a result of your choice to reduce spending. Most of which are more cost-effective than any private alternative, to boot.

    So I'm really not seeing the advantage, here. "More money in my wallet" is not a freebie. It comes at an identifiable cost, both directly and indirectly.

    I know, silly me, actually giving a shit about my fellow citizens and their welfare.
    I literally already explained it... more money, and more personal liberty.

    Your hatred of those things is noted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  5. #2305
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    22,957
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It's really not that complicated, just go by what I said, and not what you wished I had said. Nope. They get the same amount of money to spend for 5 straight years. The exact same dollar amount.
    So that's a decrease then. The exact same amount will not buy the exact same stuff after even one year.

    All of the revenue corporations will lose thanks to your brilliant idea will be very happy they have to take up the tab. How are you factoring in increased or decreased tax revenue? I mean an increase would probably go to paying off the debt, what happens when tax revenue decreases?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  6. #2306
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    68,102
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I literally already explained it... more money, and more personal liberty.

    Your hatred of those things is noted.
    You stated it by fiat.

    I dispute that reducing the tax burden even produces those outcomes at all. You consistently ignore what that tax burden actually pays for.

    This is why I asked earlier about what particular programs you felt should get cut down, specifically. A question you found so offensive of me to ask you resorted to similar insults in response. You really don't want to explain any of the details at all, do you? I'm not sure why you find that such a threat.

    I was even willing to agree that some spending cuts, in certain areas, could absolutely make sense. But apparently, no, you just want to avoid any kind of detail or nuance, and insult anyone who tries to get into that with you.

  7. #2307
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    So that's a decrease then. The exact same amount will not buy the exact same stuff after even one year.

    All of the revenue corporations will lose thanks to your brilliant idea will be very happy they have to take up the tab. How are you factoring in increased or decreased tax revenue? I mean an increase would probably go to paying off the debt, what happens when tax revenue decreases?
    No, it's a decrease in purchasing power, not a decrease in actual spending.

    f tax levels remain the same, then the only real reason for revenue to decrease, would be in a recession. And, over time, you see that GDP and revenues increase.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  8. #2308
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    If people are going to make stupid choices, I have no problem using it to my advantage. This is especially the case when they were warned for years about those stupid choices.
    I wouldn't. Because I'm not an immoral sack of shit.

    Then again I'm the guy who imports products from another country but refuses to use the fluctuating exchange rate as a means to make more money. I'm not out to bleed everyone dry.

  9. #2309
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You stated it by fiat.

    I dispute that reducing the tax burden even produces those outcomes at all. You consistently ignore what that tax burden actually pays for.

    This is why I asked earlier about what particular programs you felt should get cut down, specifically. A question you found so offensive of me to ask you resorted to similar insults in response. You really don't want to explain any of the details at all, do you? I'm not sure why you find that such a threat.
    Feel free to dispute it, it would literally be more money in your hands.

    As was stated, I called for a 5-year freeze on spending increases. That means every department could get literally the exact same amount.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  10. #2310
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    58,334
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Let's lower spending, as I've been saying.
    Will future generations not need this spending? You would rather shift the burden of keeping the country going, to future generations? Let me guess... you only see a doctor, once you start bleeding from various holes? Seems like you want to reap the benefits of lower taxes, at the expanse of paying for your expanses.

    No dude... I am simply not pretending that cutting ambiguous spending, will fix the ambiguous problems, instead of making them worse them due to neglect.

    Remember... you have yet to explain why debt is bad... just benefiting it from it, despite being the future generation of your ilk from 40 years ago.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  11. #2311
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    I wouldn't. Because I'm not an immoral sack of shit.

    Then again I'm the guy who imports products from another country but refuses to use the fluctuating exchange rate as a means to make more money. I'm not out to bleed everyone dry.
    It's not about bleeding everyone dry, it's about providing a good/service for those who don't plan properly. Convenience stores exist for this reason. You don't need to pay $8 for a popcorn at the movies, but people do... because they don't eat before they go inside.

    It's the same concept.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  12. #2312
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    68,102
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Feel free to dispute it, it would literally be more money in your hands.
    More money, and more problems which would need me to spend money to resolve.

    As was stated, I called for a 5-year freeze on spending increases. That means every department could get literally the exact same amount.
    And that's not acceptable to me, because given inflation and population growth, it's just asking to see social welfare programs get choked out and provide less benefit to those in need.

    A blanket approach is not a move towards liberty, it's a move to harm those in need and who lack the finances to help themselves, and won't see any benefit of reduced tax burdens in the first place.

    See, that's your problem. I keep thinking of my fellow citizens.

  13. #2313
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Will future generations not need this spending? You would rather shift the burden of keeping the country going, to future generations? Let me guess... you only see a doctor, once you start bleeding from various holes? Seems like you want to reap the benefits of lower taxes, at the expanse of paying for your expanses.

    No dude... I am simply not pretending that cutting ambiguous spending, will fix the ambiguous problems, instead of making them worse them due to neglect.

    Remember... you have yet to explain why debt is bad... just benefiting it from it, despite being the future generation of your ilk from 40 years ago.
    I'd rather cut spending, thanks.

    Already did explain about debt. It's a forced burden on people who have no say in the matter. You should watch Reaper.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    More money, and more problems which would need me to spend money to resolve.



    And that's not acceptable to me, because given inflation and population growth, it's just asking to see social welfare programs get choked out and provide less benefit to those in need.

    A blanket approach is not a move towards liberty, it's a move to harm those in need and who lack the finances to help themselves, and won't see any benefit of reduced tax burdens in the first place.
    You'd be free to do that.

    Meanwhile, you're supporting forcing people who aren't even alive yet, to pay for those things, and don't see anything wrong with it. You aren't thinking of them.

    That's harm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  14. #2314
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    68,102
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You'd be free to do that.

    Meanwhile, you're supporting forcing people who aren't even alive yet, to pay for those things, and don't see anything wrong with it.

    That's harm.
    Nah. That's not how national debts work.

    Also, maybe you don't know this, but Canada paid off a massive chunk of our national debt a while back. Which I contributed to, through taxes. As did all Canadians. And that program was overall pretty popular at the time.

    I'm not gonna agree with directly hurting people now out of some fear that people in the future might be indirectly harmed. Particularly when the debt is paying for the status quo today that produces those future generations.

  15. #2315
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Nah. That's not how national debts work.

    Also, maybe you don't know this, but Canada paid off a massive chunk of our national debt a while back. Which I contributed to, through taxes. As did all Canadians. And that program was overall pretty popular at the time.

    I'm not gonna agree with directly hurting people now out of some fear that people in the future might be indirectly harmed. Particularly when the debt is paying for the status quo today that produces those future generations.
    Yeah, it is. The debt gets pushed back, continuously.

    Alas, the United States spends like drunken sailors, so maybe you'll jump on board and support those spending cuts.

    You are directly hurting people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  16. #2316
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That has been explained. This is about more individual liberty.
    What individual liberties are being crushed senselessly then, especially the ones costing you money?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yeah, it is. The debt gets pushed back, continuously.

    Alas, the United States spends like drunken sailors, so maybe you'll jump on board and support those spending cuts.

    You are directly hurting people.
    That's not how the national debt works. This has been explained to you 1000's of times, but the national debt is not like personal debt.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  17. #2317
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It's not about bleeding everyone dry,

    it's about providing a good/service for those who don't plan properly.

    You don't need to pay $8 for a popcorn at the movies, but people do... because they don't eat before they go inside.
    For you it seems like it sure is. Same with most capitalists.

    That's why we have government. At least government isn't out to turn a profit. Expectation of profit is horribly inefficient.

    Some people love movie popcorn. They go to the theatre looking forward to that meal.

  18. #2318
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    What individual liberties are being crushed senselessly then, especially the ones costing you money?
    Ahh, nice use of hyperbole.

    As was pointed out, this is about thousands and thousands of smaller cuts. the current topic of discussion is tax burden., I want to reduce it, meaning more liberty to spend your own money.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    For you it seems like it sure is. Same with most capitalists.

    That's why we have government. At least government isn't out to turn a profit. Expectation of profit is horribly inefficient.

    Some people love movie popcorn. They go to the theatre looking forward to that meal.
    Our government runs at a huge debt, and the people obliged to pay it off, often have zero say in the matter.

    If you want to buy movie popcorn, I support your freedom to do it. Do you despise the theater for selling it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  19. #2319
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    22,957
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    No, it's a decrease in purchasing power, not a decrease in actual spending.
    Well, the companies getting less will be delighted about that fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    f tax levels remain the same, then the only real reason for revenue to decrease, would be in a recession. And, over time, you see that GDP and revenues increase.
    That's a big if. What about the companies that would have to lay off workers because of the decreased government spending?

    But even if everything just checks out, how are you going to reduce the deficit? So far all you've come up with is a suggestion on stopping deficit increase in the best-case scenario.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  20. #2320
    Pandaren Monk
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,872
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, lower taxes.

    More liberty, more freedom to buy what you want, and less government involvement.
    Except, if that means they'll need to pay more for what their current taxes cover. Then they'll have less liberty.
    Health insurance, fire insurance, safety insurance, work insurance, road tolls, extortionist water prices, without even getting into Scrip of different natures.
    - Lars

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •