1. #2641
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, you are mad about the "free" education they are getting, which costs more than other countries, but still say it's a fact that it benefits the wealthy who don't often use it, even more?
    So you don't deny that poor people get inferior education just because they are poor?

    Ok, we're getting somewhere. Free education doesn't mean good education. And inferior education is pretty much worthless for the individual that receives it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Do you not see how absurd your argument is getting?
    No, but I can see that liberty and freedom are just good-sounding words to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    As for the law, now you're speaking my language. I love the idea of equality under the law, and definitely love the idea of getting rid of all those laws that limit actions that don't cause harm to others. Those include things like drug laws and abortion restrictions,
    Oh, you love the idea of equality under the law? You'd be in favor of percentage-based penalties and punishments? So that wealthy people can't just ignore laws because the penalty has no impact on them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Let me know when you've realized that we've gone full circle to corporations pushing laws and regulations to give them an advantage.
    Yeah, you still ignore that it's the corporations doing it, not the government. The only solution is to deny corporations a bigger say not reducing governments influence. We're back at getting rid of the rules to punish the cheater.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    And, welcome to libertarianism!
    Which form of it?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  2. #2642
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    So you don't deny that poor people get inferior education just because they are poor?

    Ok, we're getting somewhere. Free education doesn't mean good education. And inferior education is pretty much worthless for the individual that receives it.



    No, but I can see that liberty and freedom are just good-sounding words to you.



    Oh, you love the idea of equality under the law? You'd be in favor of percentage-based penalties and punishments? So that wealthy people can't just ignore laws because the penalty has no impact on them?



    Yeah, you still ignore that it's the corporations doing it, not the government. The only solution is to deny corporations a bigger say not reducing governments influence. We're back at getting rid of the rules to punish the cheater.



    Which form of it?
    No, I'm saying the American education system is rather shitty as a whole. Let's not forget, this is an education system run by the state, federal, and local governments. If that education is as worthless as you say, then it's worthless to the wealthy who supposedly gain more for those people having the education. Do you yet see how your argument is falling apart?

    I speak of equality under the law, then you push to do percentage-based punishments? Should people be punished more or less, depending on their age group? Should a 70-year old bank robber be given less time, because he has less years of his life left? So, the elderly can just ignore laws, because the punishments won't have any effect on them?

    So, if it's the corporations doing it, then why did every single fucking one of you support the corporation doing it? It was a corporation, using the government to do it... and you fucking supported and defended it. At this point, you've successfully argued against yourself multiple times.

    Take your pick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  3. #2643
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    No, I'm saying the American education system is rather shitty as a whole. Let's not forget, this is an education system run by the state, federal, and local governments.
    That's your argument, not mine, the run by the state, federal and local governments part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    If that education is as worthless as you say, then it's worthless to the wealthy who supposedly gain more for those people having the education.
    The education system is worthless explicitly because the wealthy get a better education than the poor.

    The education system is the system that provides education. Looks like you're confused about what that means. The system is shitty as a whole. That doesn't mean that all of it is equally shitty for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Do you yet see how your argument is falling apart?
    No, because you're using your argument, not mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I speak of equality under the law, then you push to do percentage-based punishments? Should people be punished more or less, depending on their age group? Should a 70-year old bank robber be given less time, because he has less years of his life left? So, the elderly can just ignore laws, because the punishments won't have any effect on them?
    Wait, I am talking about equal punishment and you counter with unequal punishment? Wut? You know, you could just also include percentage-based punishment there too?

    For robbery, you have to be locked up for "average lifetime left/7" .. done. Of course, depending on what laws you broke this is not always useful, murder, rape, and so on, everything that injured someone carries mandatory sentencing. Everything that is just about property though, makes it equal so that the wealthy can't just buy themselves out.

    Parking where you are not allowed to park? "monthly income/50".

    Yeah, the elderly, those are really the ones committing harsh crimes. I can just envision gangs of people with rollators roaming the streets terrorizing the neighborhoods.

    So, you're not in favor of equality under the law then, so much for what you love.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, if it's the corporations doing it, then why did every single fucking one of you support the corporation doing it? It was a corporation, using the government to do it... and you fucking supported and defended it. At this point, you've successfully argued against yourself multiple times.
    We never supported corporations doing it, we merely explained to you how your examples were not backing up your argument. Bring better examples next time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Take your pick.
    I am going with ancap. That seems to be very fitting.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  4. #2644
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    That's your argument, not mine, the run by the state, federal and local governments part.



    The education system is worthless explicitly because the wealthy get a better education than the poor.

    The education system is the system that provides education. Looks like you're confused about what that means. The system is shitty as a whole. That doesn't mean that all of it is equally shitty for everyone.



    No, because you're using your argument, not mine.



    Wait, I am talking about equal punishment and you counter with unequal punishment? Wut? You know, you could just also include percentage-based punishment there too?

    For robbery, you have to be locked up for "average lifetime left/7" .. done. Of course, depending on what laws you broke this is not always useful, murder, rape, and so on, everything that injured someone carries mandatory sentencing. Everything that is just about property though, makes it equal so that the wealthy can't just buy themselves out.

    Parking where you are not allowed to park? "monthly income/50".

    Yeah, the elderly, those are really the ones committing harsh crimes. I can just envision gangs of people with rollators roaming the streets terrorizing the neighborhoods.

    So, you're not in favor of equality under the law then, so much for what you love.



    We never supported corporations doing it, we merely explained to you how your examples were not backing up your argument. Bring better examples next time.



    I am going with ancap. That seems to be very fitting.
    It is a simple fact that is who runs the education system. The federal government controls the DOE, and let's the states largely cover the day-to-day operations, along with the counties and districts.

    Many of the wealthy get a better education, because they pay more for it. That's how it has long worked. Harvard is better than the local community college, as well. That's not the wealthy benefitting, that's the wealthy paying more. Once again, you are arguing that the government and society are factually benefitting the wealthy more, and have no evidence to offer. if you're really going to bitch that they spent more of their own money to get a better product, then you either want to get rid of private education, or you don't understand how capitalism works. That's like bitching that wealthy people own nicer cars. Well no shit, they decided to fucking buy them.

    Equal punishment would be the same punishment for the same crime. If you want someone else to pay more, then my analogy is exactly the same. And yes, that's what you were advocating for. You are literally calling for unequal treatment. It's why your narrative continues to be shredded.

    You supported corporations doing it so fucking much, you had the audacity to say it was advertising.

    If you want to embrace anarcho-capitalism, then I support your freedom to do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  5. #2645
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It is a simple fact that is who runs the education system. The federal government controls the DOE, and let's the states largely cover the day-to-day operations, along with the counties and districts.
    And if you'd change the regulations, the government would still run it but it'd be fair. Funny how that works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Many of the wealthy get a better education, because they pay more for it.
    I am talking about property tax. Not what they chose to pay. You can't as a poor person just pay more in property taxes to get a better education for your children. That's the systemic part of the whole education system I am talking about, just if you're still confused. Punishing the children of poor people for being poor, it's always the side you want to be on in a discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That's how it has long worked.
    Pinnacle of stupid argumentation reached.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Harvard is better than the local community college, as well. That's not the wealthy benefitting, that's the wealthy paying more.
    And I have absolutely no problem with that, that's also not public education but private. It is subsidized by the government though, so double benefits for the rich, woop woop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Once again, you are arguing that the government and society are factually benefitting the wealthy more, and have no evidence to offer.
    You ignore all of the evidence, that's not on me, that's on you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    if you're really going to bitch that they spent more of their own money to get a better product, then you either want to get rid of private education, or you don't understand how capitalism works. That's like bitching that wealthy people own nicer cars. Well no shit, they decided to fucking buy them.
    Stop with the straw man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Equal punishment would be the same punishment for the same crime. If you want someone else to pay more, then my analogy is exactly the same. And yes, that's what you were advocating for. You are literally calling for unequal treatment. It's why your narrative continues to be shredded.
    Well, equal punishment would mean people are equally punished. Receiving a fine of 100$ has an equal impact on one that has a few million dollars sitting in his bank account compared to someone who has twenty dollars at all? You're defining being equally punished very favorably for the rich. Interesting that you think it's ok for them to break laws and don't fear punishment. It's telling. I mean, it's not surprising, considering your arguments so far, but to be so straightforward about it is interesting.

    So far, you called it equal when they get more of a say in politics. You called it equal when the system provides them with overall better education. And now you're calling it equal when they receive the same fines despite not being impacted the same way.

    Is this a game of semantics? Should I use the word equitable to get my point across?

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You supported corporations doing it so fucking much, you had the audacity to say it was advertising.
    I said it was about marketing and gave you the definition which prompted you to call religion marketing because you're reading comprehension sucks balls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    If you want to embrace anarcho-capitalism, then I support your freedom to do so.
    Fuck no, I am not going to help you bring the world down to its knees.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  6. #2646
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Ancaps do not actually seek an abolishment of the state.If you read rothbard for example he merely makes the state a private entity. The existence of private property REQUIRES a state to enforce and uphold claims to said property. Furthermore anarchy is not simple an idiology that seeks to remove the state, that is the barest of definitions which is completely ahistorical and uninformed. Anarchy is a political movement which seeks to end unjustifiable hierarchies. Ancaps seek to maintain to grossest of these hierarchies, private property. They are not anarchist, they have simple usurped the word for their favor. Other people can see anarchism all they like it doesn't make them anarchist. Its the same bs that calls the nazis and the ussr socialist. Only the ignorant would accept that.
    Only the ignorant would see the state abolished and private property guaranteed by a private concern, and slide into some “but that’s a new state and thus not anarchism.” Sorry, if it’s not a vote, statute (law) and just contracts, then it’s not the state. See other schools of anarchism that hate capitalism and invent their own solutions to the abolition of private property. Properly put, anarchists try to force others to hate capitalism as much as most “trendy” anarchist movements do, and that’s the real breaking point. And while I don’t force you to believe market contracts are a sufficient remedy for the protection of private property (you don’t have to jump to their side to understand the categorization), I do expect you to have a basic understanding about why someone there would understand it would work after the end of the state. I don’t subscribe to the ideology and it’s a pretty basic point. Anarchism for people that don’t hate capitalism, and if you find one as passionate with you, would argue other anarchist philosophies are dumb when it comes to personal property and the maintenance thereof.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  7. #2647
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    And if you'd change the regulations, the government would still run it but it'd be fair. Funny how that works.



    I am talking about property tax. Not what they chose to pay. You can't as a poor person just pay more in property taxes to get a better education for your children. That's the systemic part of the whole education system I am talking about, just if you're still confused. Punishing the children of poor people for being poor, it's always the side you want to be on in a discussion.



    Pinnacle of stupid argumentation reached.



    And I have absolutely no problem with that, that's also not public education but private. It is subsidized by the government though, so double benefits for the rich, woop woop.



    You ignore all of the evidence, that's not on me, that's on you.



    Stop with the straw man.



    Well, equal punishment would mean people are equally punished. Receiving a fine of 100$ has an equal impact on one that has a few million dollars sitting in his bank account compared to someone who has twenty dollars at all? You're defining being equally punished very favorably for the rich. Interesting that you think it's ok for them to break laws and don't fear punishment. It's telling. I mean, it's not surprising, considering your arguments so far, but to be so straightforward about it is interesting.

    So far, you called it equal when they get more of a say in politics. You called it equal when the system provides them with overall better education. And now you're calling it equal when they receive the same fines despite not being impacted the same way.

    Is this a game of semantics? Should I use the word equitable to get my point across?



    I said it was about marketing and gave you the definition which prompted you to call religion marketing because you're reading comprehension sucks balls.



    Fuck no, I am not going to help you bring the world down to its knees.
    Once again, your definition of equal doesn't fit the dictionary. As for the rest, it's clear you aren't even close to showing it to be a fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  8. #2648
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Only the ignorant would see the state abolished and private property guaranteed by a private concern, and slide into some “but that’s a new state and thus not anarchism.” Sorry, if it’s not a vote, statute (law) and just contracts, then it’s not the state. See other schools of anarchism that hate capitalism and invent their own solutions to the abolition of private property. Properly put, anarchists try to force others to hate capitalism as much as most “trendy” anarchist movements do, and that’s the real breaking point. And while I don’t force you to believe market contracts are a sufficient remedy for the protection of private property (you don’t have to jump to their side to understand the categorization), I do expect you to have a basic understanding about why someone there would understand it would work after the end of the state. I don’t subscribe to the ideology and it’s a pretty basic point. Anarchism for people that don’t hate capitalism, and if you find one as passionate with you, would argue other anarchist philosophies are dumb when it comes to personal property and the maintenance thereof.
    Who upholds contracts? who mediates and arbitrate disputes? who set the boundaries in which those contracts operate? when you figure this out you'll understand why you're just talking about the state albeit in a different name.

    Anarchism for people that don't hate capitalism is not anarchism and even rothbard said as much. You are at this point basically wilfully ignorant of the entirety of anarchist and socialist though. Proudhon literally says property is theft but apparently we went from that to ancaps are anarchist...
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #2649
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Once again, your definition of equal doesn't fit the dictionary. As for the rest, it's clear you aren't even close to showing it to be a fact.
    Ok, dropped everything else to just talk about the word equal.

    Would you say someone is being equally punished if the punishment has the same impact on them as on someone else? And what do you think punishments are for? So people don't do it? Would you agree?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  10. #2650
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It is a simple fact that is who runs the education system. The federal government controls the DOE, and let's the states largely cover the day-to-day operations, along with the counties and districts.
    Charter schools are mostly for-profit and private. They are also mostly shit. At best they teach to the test and cherry pick the smart kids. When it comes to doing the hard part, teaching less-advantaged kids, they mostly fail. When it comes to paying teachers they mostly fail.

    No child has control over their own circumstances. They are not even legally allowed to. Yet an unequal system punishes poor kids for nothing more than accident of birth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Many of the wealthy get a better education, because they pay more for it. That's how it has long worked. Harvard is better than the local community college, as well.
    Harvard has a 41 billion dollar endowment fund. It pretty much keeps them near the top. Furthermore, anyone good enough to go to Harvard doesn't pay for it.

    This is the same for all the top universities. Now imagine what things would be like if all the schools had reasonable endowment funds?

  11. #2651
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Who upholds contracts? who mediates and arbitrate disputes? who set the boundaries in which those contracts operate? when you figure this out you'll understand why you're just talking about the state albeit in a different name.

    Anarchism for people that don't hate capitalism is not anarchism and even rothbard said as much. You are at this point basically wilfully ignorant of the entirety of anarchist and socialist though. Proudhon literally says property is theft but apparently we went from that to ancaps are anarchist...
    Seems like you see problems with anarcho-caps. Fine, don't join their political movement.

    I see problems with all kinds of anarchist thought. That's mostly why I don't subscribe to any of them. It's just a stupid, ideological position to declare something both unworkable and also therefore not an example of a category. That's a critique of the movement, not the hare-brained denial of membership.

    Seriously, set some ground rules you can live by in political ideologies. Huge majorities of human beings will think your particular solution ends in misery and totalitarianism. So afford yourself and others the position to debate it before doing nonsensical dismissal.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  12. #2652
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Seems like you see problems with anarcho-caps. Fine, don't join their political movement.

    I see problems with all kinds of anarchist thought. That's mostly why I don't subscribe to any of them. It's just a stupid, ideological position to declare something both unworkable and also therefore not an example of a category. That's a critique of the movement, not the hare-brained denial of membership.

    Seriously, set some ground rules you can live by in political ideologies. Huge majorities of human beings will think your particular solution ends in misery and totalitarianism. So afford yourself and others the position to debate it before doing nonsensical dismissal.
    I frankly don't give a shit when it comes to your feeling about anarchy. You don't actually understand what anarchy represents and that's why you feel comfortable lumping in ancaps with the wider anarchist tradition. I wasn't really making a case for anarchy anyway. It is not nonsensical to dismiss people who claim to represent an ideology while having not the foggiest clue what that idiocy represents. In the same sense that the 3rd Reich wasn't socialist

    You can't really answer any of the arguments I made for dismissing the claims of so called ancaps and instead you'd rather derail the discussion. Its fine, you're ignorant of socialist and anarchist thought but please don't pretend to understand things you haven't a clue about.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #2653
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Ok, dropped everything else to just talk about the word equal.

    Would you say someone is being equally punished if the punishment has the same impact on them as on someone else? And what do you think punishments are for? So people don't do it? Would you agree?
    That's the problem, trying to make something equitable, like a prison sentence for guy like Bernie Madoff. Should he have received less of a punishment for his theft, since he was older?

    The same for rape, murder, or any other crime. I get that you want to just talk about financial impacts, but if this is about being fair, and not equal, then at least be consistent in the application.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Charter schools are mostly for-profit and private. They are also mostly shit. At best they teach to the test and cherry pick the smart kids. When it comes to doing the hard part, teaching less-advantaged kids, they mostly fail. When it comes to paying teachers they mostly fail.

    No child has control over their own circumstances. They are not even legally allowed to. Yet an unequal system punishes poor kids for nothing more than accident of birth.



    Harvard has a 41 billion dollar endowment fund. It pretty much keeps them near the top. Furthermore, anyone good enough to go to Harvard doesn't pay for it.

    This is the same for all the top universities. Now imagine what things would be like if all the schools had reasonable endowment funds?
    Great, good for them. I fully support a private alternative. But, this all started when the other poster declared it as a fact that the wealthy receive more from the government. I simply questioned it, and he has yet to show how it's actually anywhere close to a factual statement.

    Wealth begets more wealth, and the government isn't needed to make this happen. It's about planning for generations, and sticking with it. Harvard is older than the United States, by a fair amount. There's a reason it's managed to accrue such an endowment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  14. #2654
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I frankly don't give a shit when it comes to your feeling about anarchy. You don't actually understand what anarchy represents and that's why you feel comfortable lumping in ancaps with the wider anarchist tradition. I wasn't really making a case for anarchy anyway. It is not nonsensical to dismiss people who claim to represent an ideology while having not the foggiest clue what that idiocy represents. In the same sense that the 3rd Reich wasn't socialist

    You can't really answer any of the arguments I made for dismissing the claims of so called ancaps and instead you'd rather derail the discussion. Its fine, you're ignorant of socialist and anarchist thought but please don't pretend to understand things you haven't a clue about.
    An anarchist society can be capitalistic or non-capitalistic. There's more than one way to interpret anarchy. I'd say it's more compatible with capitalism than socialism because how do you redistribute resources for social purposes if there is no form of authority like the IRS and the police?

    Anarchy only works if people don't want to coerce other people into involuntary action which doesn't work for most socialists because most of their plans require the use of force against rich people.
    Optimism! (HumanProgress.org)

  15. #2655
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    An anarchist society can be capitalistic or non-capitalistic. There's more than one way to interpret anarchy. I'd say it's more compatible with capitalism than socialism because how do you redistribute resources for social purposes if there is no form of authority like the IRS and the police?

    Anarchy only works if people don't want to coerce other people into involuntary action which doesn't work for most socialists because most of their plans require the use of force against rich people.
    Yes, and all of them are anti-capitalist.


    I could go further, but as seen before in this thread, its a waste of time to even discuss anarchism with any sort of conservative.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    it’s mostly a syndicalist fantasy that “the workers” are going to rise up, which is disconnected from the fact that “the workers” are your racist uncle and jerk co-workers who you don’t like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The election has passed and 58 million working class Americans stood up and proved that they are in fact your racist uncle and jerk co-workers.
    They really can't help but show disdain for the working class.

  16. #2656
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That's the problem, trying to make something equitable, like a prison sentence for guy like Bernie Madoff. Should he have received less of a punishment for his theft, since he was older?
    You know we weren't talking about that, because all your examples talk about prison when I was talking about fines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    The same for rape, murder, or any other crime. I get that you want to just talk about financial impacts, but if this is about being fair, and not equal, then at least be consistent in the application.
    Why do I have to pretend rape, murder, or any other crime is comparable to crimes with just a financial impact?

    I see you haven't answered even one question. Does that mean you disagree and want wealthy people to ignore the laws because they have virtually no impact on their situation?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  17. #2657
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    You know we weren't talking about that, because all your examples talk about prison when I was talking about fines.



    Why do I have to pretend rape, murder, or any other crime is comparable to crimes with just a financial impact?

    I see you haven't answered even one question. Does that mean you disagree and want wealthy people to ignore the laws because they have virtually no impact on their situation?
    You want to talk about equitable punishments, so you better want it for everything.

    It's not about ignoring the laws, it's about having equality under the law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  18. #2658
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Great, good for them. I fully support a private alternative. But, this all started when the other poster declared it as a fact that the wealthy receive more from the government. I simply questioned it, and he has yet to show how it's actually anywhere close to a factual statement.

    Wealth begets more wealth, and the government isn't needed to make this happen. It's about planning for generations, and sticking with it. Harvard is older than the United States, by a fair amount. There's a reason it's managed to accrue such an endowment.
    The alternative is personified by Betsy DeVos. She was wealthy before the government from shady business dealings, she now uses her superior financial position to extract more money from everyone via the government. Some people said she was an incompetent head for the Department of Education. This is incorrect. She used her immense political contacts (which include a Vice President) to get what she wanted and to enable her to gain more wealth for her cronies. The presence or absence of government is not really relevant because the dishonest will cheerfully fuck over other people to get what they want in either case.

    Rich people gain more benefit from the world. If you order something from Amazon, they need a well maintained infrastructure to get you that item. You need a well maintained infrastructure to get that item. The difference is they use that same well-maintained infrastructure how many times per day?

    Yeah but every other university also needs a quality endowment. Hell, regular schools need appropriate funding. Life is easy for Harvard because they don't have to put in the hard work of dealing with difficult problems.

  19. #2659
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    Yes, and all of them are anti-capitalist.
    No that depends on whether the anarchists we're talking about support capitalism or not.

    Anarchist is just a label though so the debate should be about any disagreement with the underlying ideas and not a debate about what a word means.
    Optimism! (HumanProgress.org)

  20. #2660
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You want to talk about equitable punishments, so you better want it for everything.
    I was talking about the difference between rich and poor and the different impacts punishments have on them. You, having no objection or argument against that, now move the goalpost to something entirely different.

    I don't have to be consistent, because those things are not comparable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It's not about ignoring the laws, it's about having equality under the law.
    So that's a yes then, thanks for confirming.

    You want everyone to be fined equally.

    I want everyone to be affected by fines equally.

    Keep up fighting for the wealthy, everyone knows they're really at a disadvantage in the US.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

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