1. #2921
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    Well, good to see you don't see problem with violence in that case. We can now freely force rich people to hand over whatever taxes we need, such lovely news.
    Nah, fuck that. That's like saying you agree murder should be banned, so you are allowed to rape people for fun.

    Or to put it more succinctly, you have no problem with the wealthy enslaving the poor, in order to get the labor that they want.

    Your logic is scattered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  2. #2922
    A very basic bot could literally give you guys your Machismo posts to argue with at this point. No matter what you say, he can only boil everything down to like 3/4 incredibly basic regurgitated points. At this point, he might even be a bot....

    Low key kinda miss when this was about whisky and abortion, 2 totally comparable things.

  3. #2923
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Nah, fuck that. That's like saying you agree murder should be banned, so you are allowed to rape people for fun.

    Or to put it more succinctly, you have no problem with the wealthy enslaving the poor, in order to get the labor that they want.

    Your logic is scattered.
    No, that's what you have no problem with.
    Yes, you'll claim you've got an issue with slavery. But your society will defacto become the wealthy in practice enslaving whole swaths of the population in everything but name. All in the name of "liberty".
    - Lars

  4. #2924
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    No, that's what you have no problem with.
    Yes, you'll claim you've got an issue with slavery. But your society will defacto become the wealthy in practice enslaving whole swaths of the population in everything but name. All in the name of "liberty".
    Reducing spending by 2-3% per year for 5 years will lead to slavery?

    Or... you could simply oppose authoritarian shitbags...
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  5. #2925
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    No, that's what you have no problem with.
    Yes, you'll claim you've got an issue with slavery. But your society will defacto become the wealthy in practice enslaving whole swaths of the population in everything but name. All in the name of "liberty".
    No, you see, he stated a number of times, he's against that.

    So, he would be standing on the side, telling slavers that slavery is not ok and that they should stop it because it's against what he envisioned while handing them another even better whip.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  6. #2926
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Reducing spending by 2-3% per year for 5 years will lead to slavery?

    Or... you could simply oppose authoritarian shitbags...
    Easing regulations (aside from those that "cause harm"), removing social safety nets, and letting money translate directly into influence will cause the situation I described.
    You're explicitly for the first. You're in practice for the second. And you haven't outright stated you're against the latter (and anytime anyone brings up limiting money in politics you get very angry at them limiting liberty).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    No, you see, he stated a number of times, he's against that.

    So, he would be standing on the side, telling slavers that slavery is not ok and that they should stop it because it's against what he envisioned while handing them another even better whip.
    Oh but since they wouldn't be slaves. They'd be voluntary workers! He'd have no issue with it. They could just quit whenever they wanted!*

    *and starve to death
    - Lars

  7. #2927
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    Easing regulations (aside from those that "cause harm"), removing social safety nets, and letting money translate directly into influence will cause the situation I described.
    You're explicitly for the first. You're in practice for the second. And you haven't outright stated you're against the latter (and anytime anyone brings up limiting money in politics you get very angry at them limiting liberty).

    - - - Updated - - -



    Oh but since they wouldn't be slaves. They'd be voluntary workers! He'd have no issue with it. They could just quit whenever they wanted!*

    *and starve to death
    I pointed to examples like BLM and Planned Parenthood. To be clear, you don't think they should spend all that money pushing their political agendas?

    My main goal is to balance budgets, and not saddle future generations with massive debt. You seem to think that somehow translates to slavery. Meanwhile, we have progressive after progressive just saying that we merely need to keep taxing the rich to pay for it all.

    I do want to easy restrictions and regulations, because a great many of them are unnecessary and burdensome. This points to the very same issue. Most people don't give a shit about someone else's liberty, so long as theirs remains intact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  8. #2928
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    Oh but since they wouldn't be slaves. They'd be voluntary workers! He'd have no issue with it. They could just quit whenever they wanted!*

    *and starve to death
    "Okay, so we can do whatever we want with our lives?"
    "Well, no. You'll have to work. Or else you can starve to death in a ditch."
    "But I can choose who I work for, at least?"
    "In practice, you'll be the one applying to dozens of employers and taking whatever offer comes in. So not really."
    "But I can choose what city and neighbourhood I live in?"
    "I mean, can you afford it? Is there work there? Will a landlord accept you as a tenant? Difficult to say. Unless you're okay with the 'stave to death in a ditch' option."
    "So the capitalists choose what job options I have, what pay scales I get, where I can work, where I can live. How am I not a slave, again?"
    "Well, if you starve to death in a ditch, the capitalists aren't losing value from the depreciation of a piece of property they own, any more!"
    "God fucking damn it."

  9. #2929
    Most people don't give a shit about someone else's liberty, so long as theirs remains intact.
    like your liberty to look on as people die in poverty and lack of proper healthcare. this is why I bring up Little saint James, you're the guy who works on the island but would never in a million years let his kid onto it.

  10. #2930
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I pointed to examples like BLM and Planned Parenthood. To be clear, you don't think they should spend all that money pushing their political agendas?

    My main goal is to balance budgets, and not saddle future generations with massive debt. You seem to think that somehow translates to slavery. Meanwhile, we have progressive after progressive just saying that we merely need to keep taxing the rich to pay for it all.

    I do want to easy restrictions and regulations, because a great many of them are unnecessary and burdensome. This points to the very same issue. Most people don't give a shit about someone else's liberty, so long as theirs remains intact.
    As for the first. Yes. They shouldn't spend money on political campaigns and lobbying congress.
    Town Squares and pamphlets? Sure. That's direct action and education. They can blow as much money on that they want. Sending stacks of money to help a political actor win an election? Fuck no. Never.
    And -everyone- here that has taken this issue up more or less agrees with this stance. This money shouldn't be in politics as it stands.

    And your way of balancing the budget would hurt. And taxes for those who can afford it (which wouldn't hurt those who can afford it. If I were to pay 110 USD in taxes, or 120 USD, I'd hardly notice the difference as things stands. As a small example. Bezos wouldn't notice paying 5 million USD in tax, or 10). But higher taxes would also balance the budget. You also absolutely don't understand how government loans work and have bought into GOP scaremongering on that issue.
    I also don't say "tax the rich". I say "tax everyone who can afford it". Also, cutting the budget as you suggest, causing harm to people on the margins. Would harm. And you yelling "charity" wouldn't help them either since it's systemic issues. Systemic problems need systemic solutions. (Also, if you donate to charity and then deduct it from your taxes, imo you aren't being charitable, you're being selfish).

    And almost non of them actually are. They are some malicious regulations. They tend to get removed. Most regulations are there because greedy bastards forced them to be in place because people died.
    See Fire Extingishers.
    See Glass-Steagall.
    See Food Safety.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    "Okay, so we can do whatever we want with our lives?"
    "Well, no. You'll have to work. Or else you can starve to death in a ditch."
    "But I can choose who I work for, at least?"
    "In practice, you'll be the one applying to dozens of employers and taking whatever offer comes in. So not really."
    "But I can choose what city and neighbourhood I live in?"
    "I mean, can you afford it? Is there work there? Will a landlord accept you as a tenant? Difficult to say. Unless you're okay with the 'stave to death in a ditch' option."
    "So the capitalists choose what job options I have, what pay scales I get, where I can work, where I can live. How am I not a slave, again?"
    "Well, if you starve to death in a ditch, the capitalists aren't losing value from the depreciation of a piece of property they own, any more!"
    "God fucking damn it."
    But you have complete liberty in how you live your life or what you say! Just work harder and you can do it!
    - Lars

  11. #2931
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    But you have complete liberty in how you live your life or what you say! Just work harder and you can do it!
    Well, there -are- certain levels of liberty.

    I know plenty of folks who are unemployed and just crash at a friend's place, or some people who are happy living in the mountains in their own cabin far away from society.

    I think the real thing people are saying is, when they say they -have to- work is:
    "I've to work if I want to live a normal life according to the urban family model"

  12. #2932
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    I know plenty of folks who are unemployed and just crash at a friend's place, or some people who are happy living in the mountains in their own cabin far away from society.
    [/I]
    Both of those show one kind of privilege or another.
    The first show that you've got a suport network of people who'll let you crash at them. Might the one doing it be abusively using people? Yes, or she's out on her luck and just need a place to get back.
    The second demands you've got ability to live off-grid. If you're lacking a leg that might be difficult unless you, again, got a suport network.
    - Lars

  13. #2933
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    like your liberty to look on as people die in poverty and lack of proper healthcare. this is why I bring up Little saint James, you're the guy who works on the island but would never in a million years let his kid onto it.
    You had your shot to donate more, you refused.

    So, your argument is refuted by your own actions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    As for the first. Yes. They shouldn't spend money on political campaigns and lobbying congress.
    Town Squares and pamphlets? Sure. That's direct action and education. They can blow as much money on that they want. Sending stacks of money to help a political actor win an election? Fuck no. Never.
    And -everyone- here that has taken this issue up more or less agrees with this stance. This money shouldn't be in politics as it stands.

    And your way of balancing the budget would hurt. And taxes for those who can afford it (which wouldn't hurt those who can afford it. If I were to pay 110 USD in taxes, or 120 USD, I'd hardly notice the difference as things stands. As a small example. Bezos wouldn't notice paying 5 million USD in tax, or 10). But higher taxes would also balance the budget. You also absolutely don't understand how government loans work and have bought into GOP scaremongering on that issue.
    I also don't say "tax the rich". I say "tax everyone who can afford it". Also, cutting the budget as you suggest, causing harm to people on the margins. Would harm. And you yelling "charity" wouldn't help them either since it's systemic issues. Systemic problems need systemic solutions. (Also, if you donate to charity and then deduct it from your taxes, imo you aren't being charitable, you're being selfish).

    And almost non of them actually are. They are some malicious regulations. They tend to get removed. Most regulations are there because greedy bastards forced them to be in place because people died.
    See Fire Extingishers.
    See Glass-Steagall.
    See Food Safety.

    - - - Updated - - -



    But you have complete liberty in how you live your life or what you say! Just work harder and you can do it!
    So, you don't have a problem with money in politics, so long as it's spent how you like it. Well, BLM and Planned Parenthood have donated quite a lot to get the people they want into office, which is exactly what corporations do.

    Balancing the budget is going to hurt. We've been overspending for so long, we don't even have a fucking clue what it's like to live within our means. Yes, it's not much different than some rich entitled kid who gets cut off by their parents.

    As was already pointed out, in order to balance that budget, the top 1% would need to TRIPLE their tax burden. So, it's not like another $5 million from Bezos, it's like another tens of billions from him... per year.

    So, exactly how much more are you willing to spend, in order to balance it? As was already shown, the average is about $3k per person, per year. But, with Covid, it's about $10k per person. So, your $10 isn't really much help. Can I count you in for the average, and $3k a year? Oh, that's per person, so multiply that by the number of people in your household.

    - - - Updated - - -

    As a consumer, feel free to not spend your money at any business that pays their employees less than you'd like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  14. #2934
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, you don't have a problem with money in politics, so long as it's spent how you like it. Well, BLM and Planned Parenthood have donated quite a lot to get the people they want into office, which is exactly what corporations do.
    I'll only take this bit. As the other you can just read again.
    And this here is you fully either missreading, or misrepresenting me.
    I said I didn't want them to spend either. At least not direct contributions. If they want to educate in the grass-roots? That's fine. They can go to the town square, get permission to put up a wagon or something. And talk and give out pamplets.
    They shouldn't send money to legislators or political parties.

    And neither should anyone else.
    Corporations can do the same thing. Even if I assume the unpaid intern they send to do their talking would be far worse at convincing people.
    - Lars

  15. #2935
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You had your shot to donate more, you refused.

    So, your argument is refuted by your own actions.
    there are planets, in our solar system, that have less hot gas than you do. even if I did what you asked, why the hell would you believe me if I did? that would require you having to confront your confirmation biases about me and we all know by now that's never going to happen.

  16. #2936
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    I'll only take this bit. As the other you can just read again.
    And this here is you fully either missreading, or misrepresenting me.
    I said I didn't want them to spend either. At least not direct contributions. If they want to educate in the grass-roots? That's fine. They can go to the town square, get permission to put up a wagon or something. And talk and give out pamplets.
    They shouldn't send money to legislators or political parties.

    And neither should anyone else.
    Corporations can do the same thing. Even if I assume the unpaid intern they send to do their talking would be far worse at convincing people.
    Private citizens are allowed to donate to politicians. Private citizens are allowed to donate to political parties.

    That would mean a complete and total dismembering of the political system, and would mean nothing without first getting rid of the Electoral College.

    And yes, most of this is done via advertising, which largely comes in the form of radio and television ads. Are those going to be banned?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    there are planets, in our solar system, that have less hot gas than you do. even if I did what you asked, why the hell would you believe me if I did? that would require you having to confront your confirmation biases about me and we all know by now that's never going to happen.
    Once again, when given the opportunity to do what you claim you want done, you couldn't be bothered. Nah, this is just about your hatred of wealthy people, and your desire take their money from them.

    Let me know when you've made that donation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  17. #2937
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Punks do not have a defined ideology, to be a political movement like Anarchist. Jello having business men dress as clowns or MC5 having platform of fucking in the streets, are not really political ideologies. Calling your self a punk, has an inherent acceptance, that politics don’t have... you inherently accept that you are worthless.

    It’s why I keep posting such varied music that is contained in punk. Regardless of your political affiliation, you need to accept being worthless in society. Even Green Day sang about jerking off, because they are worthless... before they became rich and pop... gaining a voice as a flaccid antiwar band... it’s why the sell out part works in punk, but is virtue signaling in everything else. You can’t be punk and have socially acceptable value in what you say...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  18. #2938
    ...but but but ...CBGBs!

  19. #2939
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    I'll let Richard Wolff explain the basics of Labor Theory;
    If anyone is interested, am watching Wolff debate Destiny:

    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

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