1. #1481
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Except, weed legalization is growing in popularity, and can help win elections. The party in charge can use gerrymandering to continue winning elections. Getting rid of it is literally legislating away your advantage.
    Except that opposition to gerrymandering is also bipartisan, with a majority of all parties having an unfavorable view of the practice too: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-wo...gerrymandering

    Which is kinda the point I'm getting at. A lot of these issues, like legalizing weed, have popular support but are slow to see the effects of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Take Maryland as an example. The Dems control the state (GOP governor), and gerrymandered the shit out of it in 2014.
    https://www.brennancenter.org/our-wo...me-gerrymander

    Yes, and it was Republicans that complained about it. Because it's legal for Democrats to gerrymander along partisan lines as well.

  2. #1482
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Those are about laws not regulations. Regulations tend to be rules businesses have to follow and can be found in the CFR.
    And they are rules that come with the force of government, including punishments.

    With abortion, many regulations were pushed, like mandating ultrasounds, widening hallways, and requiring admitting privileges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Except that opposition to gerrymandering is also bipartisan, with a majority of all parties having an unfavorable view of the practice too: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-wo...gerrymandering

    Which is kinda the point I'm getting at. A lot of these issues, like legalizing weed, have popular support but are slow to see the effects of it.



    https://www.brennancenter.org/our-wo...me-gerrymander

    Yes, and it was Republicans that complained about it. Because it's legal for Democrats to gerrymander along partisan lines as well.
    And yet... they have no problem continuing to vote for the parties doing it.

    What people swear they oppose, and what they actually oppose is often very different. That's like asking people if they think racism is bad. People say sexual assault is bad, but it didn't stop them from voting for Trump. At the end of the day, admitting to supporting gerrymandering amounts to a person admitting to being a shitty human. Not many people actually think they're terrible.

  3. #1483
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    And they are rules that come with the force of government, including punishments.

    With abortion, many regulations were pushed, like mandating ultrasounds, widening hallways, and requiring admitting privileges.
    Blah, blah, blah.

    Not the point, the point is you've been bitching about regulations. You hate regulations because you want corporations to have less rules to follow so they can have more power and you think that somehow makes you less of a corporation sycophant.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  4. #1484
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Blah, blah, blah.

    Not the point, the point is you've been bitching about regulations. You hate regulations because you want corporations to have less rules to follow so they can have more power and you think that somehow makes you less of a corporation sycophant.
    You chimed in to make the distinction, I don't much give a shit how it tastes.

    No, I bitch about unnecessary and burdensome government. I bitch about shitty laws, shitty regulations, and shitty behavior of our government.

    So, those abortion regulations that the conservatives want to put in, does that mean you support those regulations, because you want to make sure corporations have more rules to follow?

    Or, are you a corporation sycophant?

  5. #1485
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    And yet... they have no problem continuing to vote for the parties doing it.
    Because the other options are...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    What people swear they oppose, and what they actually oppose is often very different.
    No, there is just no perfect candidate. You're never gonna find a candidate that agrees with 100% of what you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    At the end of the day, admitting to supporting gerrymandering amounts to a person admitting to being a shitty human. Not many people actually think they're terrible.
    Right now, those are the rules of the game. If you don't play by them, you're at a disadvantage.

    This is like with HR1 and campaign finance reform. It's not sexy, and it's far from perfect, but it's needed. Badly. But it's a hard thing to get through given the political forces at work, and has taken huge efforts from voters in pressuring their Reps/Senators for it. One battle at a time, sadly, and I hope gerrymandering is up soon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, those abortion regulations that the conservatives want to put in, does that mean you support those regulations, because you want to make sure corporations have more rules to follow?
    This kinda absolutist thinking that leaves no room for nuance is why this "discussion" has gone in circles for eternity. That and y'all continually talking past each other rather than to each other.

  6. #1486
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Because the other options are...?



    No, there is just no perfect candidate. You're never gonna find a candidate that agrees with 100% of what you want.



    Right now, those are the rules of the game. If you don't play by them, you're at a disadvantage.

    This is like with HR1 and campaign finance reform. It's not sexy, and it's far from perfect, but it's needed. Badly. But it's a hard thing to get through given the political forces at work, and has taken huge efforts from voters in pressuring their Reps/Senators for it. One battle at a time, sadly, and I hope gerrymandering is up soon.
    You know.... not supporting gerrymandering, by not voting for gerrymanderers.

    People lie all the time when it comes to issues like that. The only people who really care about gerrymandering, are the losers. But, when they are in charge, their concern diminishes considerable. It's a lot like the budget in that manner.

    As for those rules, you made my point for me, the winners have no incentive to change the rules.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    has taken huge efforts from voters in pressuring their Reps/Senators for it. One battle at a time, sadly, and I hope gerrymandering is up soon.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This kinda absolutist thinking that leaves no room for nuance is why this "discussion" has gone in circles for eternity. That and y'all continually talking past each other rather than to each other.
    He's the one who just labeled me, I just used his own fucking argument against him.

    This all started, because I was opposing a regulation being pushed by a major corporation to tip the competitive playing field.

    I tried talking to people, I literally mentioned those regulations to try and find middle ground, go back and check. I was trying to show that compromise can be made, by pointing to very small regulations, and did so for a reason. Do you know what happened? Every fucking so-called progressive jumped in to shit on me, and defend that legislation.

    So, if they want to keep that shit up, I can give it right back. Shall we go back and roll the tape when you chimed in to try and pile on?

    Here's my two posts where I tried to show compromise and reasonable steps:

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That's the point of it, to focus on something small in the short term.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Nope, not at all.

    That's the point that people don't seem to get. I have no illusions that I will get my way with everything, nor should you believe that to be the case. That's why the key is starting small, and getting what little victories you can.

    - - - Updated - - -



    A less-powerful government means that the corporations have less of a sword to use against other corporations and the people.

    The government is the "or else" aspect of the equation.

    Here's the part that people get, they want to focus on their misinterpretation of the "utopian" aspect of it, instead of the incrementalist part. These are things that I would do in the short term:

    Make it easier to vote. Conversely, stop making it more difficult to vote. Voting should be as simple as possible, and suppression should not be used as a tactic to win elections.

    Legalize marijuana at the federal level. This will greatly aid the ending of the prison-industrial complex, cut down on welfare in the long term, and not disrupt the lives of citizens who are not harming others.

    Stop federal government spending increases for 5 years. This is to push government to run more efficiently, seek out fraud, waste, and abuse... and means that they are not simply trying to continue getting funding.

    Stop governments from trying to limit the 1st Amendment rights of website and business owners. This is rather simple, businesses and their owners employees should have rights.

    Stop governments from limiting the right to an abortion, as they have bodily autonomy. This is to ensure the 14th Amendment rights of women.

    Stop governments from supporting legislation and government action that limit the constitutional rights of gay people. This is a clear attempt to protect the 14th Amendment.

    Not allow for eminent domain for private use. This protects private property rights, and limits corporatism

    Start with those. Are those stances outlandish? Every single one of them has a reasonable justification.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Corporations use government to push regulations that stifle competition. I'm reminded of when Jack Daniel's Distillery tried to use the Kentucky government to determine that it couldn't be called Kentucky whiskey unless it was aged in the same barrels thar they used.

    Then there's the organic-food industry that tried to force labeling restrictions on their competitors in order to help sell the narrative that organic food is better.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2021-04-13 at 03:13 AM.

  7. #1487
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You know.... not supporting gerrymandering, by not voting for gerrymanderers.
    You say that as if

    A) Gerrymandering is a "single issue" kinda vote and...it ain't.
    B) There's ever an anti-gerrymandering candidate who doesn't also come with some other...baggage.
    C) There are multiple candidates that put gerrymandering at the center of their platform, or even really address it at all for voters to chose from

    Everything in your world is easy, or at least should be. That's not how it is in reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    The only people who really care about gerrymandering, are the losers. But, when they are in charge, their concern diminishes considerable. It's a lot like the budget in that manner.
    Sure, and the same goes for campaign finance reform and electoral reform. But look at Democrats, at least in the House, pushing that shit hard. Because there's pressure. There just needs to be pressure on other issues, one (or two) things at a time.

  8. #1488
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    What people swear they oppose, and what they actually oppose is often very different.
    The irony is staggering.

    Sorry, couldn't resist. bye
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  9. #1489
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    The irony is staggering.

    Sorry, couldn't resist. bye
    Except, I'm stating emphatically what I support, and I'm sticking to it.

    You fucking called it marketing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    You say that as if

    A) Gerrymandering is a "single issue" kinda vote and...it ain't.
    B) There's ever an anti-gerrymandering candidate who doesn't also come with some other...baggage.
    C) There are multiple candidates that put gerrymandering at the center of their platform, or even really address it at all for voters to chose from

    Everything in your world is easy, or at least should be. That's not how it is in reality.



    Sure, and the same goes for campaign finance reform and electoral reform. But look at Democrats, at least in the House, pushing that shit hard. Because there's pressure. There just needs to be pressure on other issues, one (or two) things at a time.
    Which proves my point that people don't actually give a shit about gerrymandering, and it shows why gun control will never be a thing (in my lifetime), no matter how much people swear it's totes a popular issue.

    Gerrymandering isn't going to be a federal issue, it will be one solved at the state level. You've made your stance on that quite clear. And, we've seen that the party in power in states, be it Democrat or Republican, has embraced gerrymandering.

  10. #1490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Except, I'm stating emphatically what I support, and I'm sticking to it.
    .
    The thing is, and why people keep being as exhausted at you as they are, is that what you claim to support will inevitably lead to a world dominated by the mega wealthy and everyone else being defacto indepted persons if not outright slaves.

    You can claim to be against that result as much as you want. The policies and world that you argue for would end up there.

    That you use a horrid example of regulation used to hurt people to try and counter what is at worst a neutral one doesn't help your case. The Tennesee Whisky law is common I Europe.
    Look up Feta Cheese, Parmesan, Parma Ham, Champagne, or lots if other regionally produced produce that has to follow set standards.

    What are your opinion on Glass-Steagle? Was that a good harm preventing regulation?
    - Lars

  11. #1491
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    The thing is, and why people keep being as exhausted at you as they are, is that what you claim to support will inevitably lead to a world dominated by the mega wealthy and everyone else being defacto indepted persons if not outright slaves.

    You can claim to be against that result as much as you want. The policies and world that you argue for would end up there.

    That you use a horrid example of regulation used to hurt people to try and counter what is at worst a neutral one doesn't help your case. The Tennesee Whisky law is common I Europe.
    Look up Feta Cheese, Parmesan, Parma Ham, Champagne, or lots if other regionally produced produce that has to follow set standards.

    What are your opinion on Glass-Steagle? Was that a good harm preventing regulation?
    So, getting rid of that single regulation will lead to a world dominated by the mega wealthy? That regulation was pushed by a multi-billion-dollar corporation.

    So, because of things like that, you won't have my sympathy when the GOP-controlled SCOTUS shreds abortion rights. Now, as much as I detest the attacks on liberty, I'm used to them by now. So, I'll at least be able to enjoy the misery of hypocrites.

  12. #1492
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You chimed in to make the distinction, I don't much give a shit how it tastes.

    No, I bitch about unnecessary and burdensome government. I bitch about shitty laws, shitty regulations, and shitty behavior of our government.

    So, those abortion regulations that the conservatives want to put in, does that mean you support those regulations, because you want to make sure corporations have more rules to follow?

    Or, are you a corporation sycophant?
    What the fuck are you even talking about? Are you asking me where I stand on corporate abortions?

    I said I wanted the people in charge of the government instead of corporations. You called that authoritarian, facist and socialism. And since then have been arguing in favor of LESS regulation of corporations so they have more unhindered power to literally do as they please.

    And you keep trying to peg everyone else as the corporatist.

    It’s batshit fucking cuckoo bird bananas.

    Are there a few unnecessary regulations? Yes. But you’re acting like the biggest fucking travesty you can think of is standards for Tennessee whiskey, when right now Amazon workers are forced to shit in bags.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  13. #1493
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, getting rid of that single regulation will lead to a world dominated by the mega wealthy? That regulation was pushed by a multi-billion-dollar corporation.

    So, because of things like that, you won't have my sympathy when the GOP-controlled SCOTUS shreds abortion rights. Now, as much as I detest the attacks on liberty, I'm used to them by now. So, I'll at least be able to enjoy the misery of hypocrites.
    So we can add schadenfreude to the list of shitty things you're in favor of.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #1494
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    What the fuck are you even talking about? Are you asking me where I stand on corporate abortions?

    I said I wanted the people in charge of the government instead of corporations. You called that authoritarian, facist and socialism. And since then have been arguing in favor of LESS regulation of corporations so they have more unhindered power to literally do as they please.

    And you keep trying to peg everyone else as the corporatist.

    It’s batshit fucking cuckoo bird bananas.

    Are there a few unnecessary regulations? Yes. But you’re acting like the biggest fucking travesty you can think of is standards for Tennessee whiskey, when right now Amazon workers are forced to shit in bags.
    And, people will be in charge of the government when they restrict abortions.

    I've been arguing in favor of more liberty, the entire time. That hasn't changed. As for the corporatist thing, you guys are the ones supporting the regulations pushed by the major corporation in order to gain a competitive advantage.

    No, I was pointing to very small regulations, so as to show middle ground can be found. I picked minor ones on purpose. The fact that you guys were so intractable, shows exactly why people like me won't really give two shits when the GOP seeks to push major ones. After all, if you guys are so unwilling to compromise, why should people like me lift a finger? The liberties being taken away by both parties aren't much different.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    So we can add schadenfreude to the list of shitty things you're in favor of.
    I have long said I enjoy the misery of miserable people.

    Guilty as charged.

  15. #1495
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Except, I'm stating emphatically what I support, and I'm sticking to it.
    That's the ironic part of it. Man, how did you make it to almost 50.000 posts without understanding a word that is written?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  16. #1496
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    That's the ironic part of it. Man, how did you make it to almost 50.000 posts without understanding a word that is written?
    No, the issue is that I know the difference between what I say, and what you guys think I said.

    I pointed to a single piece of legislation that was unnecessary, and being pushed by a major corporation to give itself a competitive advantage, to show that compromise can be found.

    I guess there's no room for compromise, which means I shouldn't care when the GOP does this same shit for the things you guys do care about. And yes, you and I both know it's coming, and soon.

  17. #1497
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    No, the issue is that I know the difference between what I say, and what you guys think I said.

    I pointed to a single piece of legislation that was unnecessary, and being pushed by a major corporation to give itself a competitive advantage, to show that compromise can be found.

    I guess there's no room for compromise, which means I shouldn't care when the GOP does this same shit for the things you guys do care about. And yes, you and I both know it's coming, and soon.
    Na, you've presented regulations that you thought were a perfect example of corporations pushing regulations that harm the competition. The GMO thing blew up in your face so fast you dropped it like a hot potato. The JD one is the only thing you've got left and that has been established to not harm the competition but protect smaller and larger corporations against the biggest player in the market. You weren't able to produce anything but an article with interviews to back up your claim. You could've shown revenue numbers or profits because enough time has passed but for a very weird reason, you don't want to go there. My guess is you've looked at them and found out that you are entirely wrong and just hope no one else does it so you can use that one regulation as an example for your black/white reasoning that if you aren't against one "unnecessary" regulation you mustn't be against abortion regulations.

    But where you are the wrongest any person ever was in the history of being wrong is when you equate healthcare to regular services and even products because most of the time people have very very little choice in what healthcare "service" they can use which should be obvious to everyone that ever had to go to the doctor because of an emergency.

    That's why you're a hypocrite. And that's why it's ironic that you preach one thing and constantly argue for the exact opposite while screaming you're against it.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  18. #1498
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Na, you've presented regulations that you thought were a perfect example of corporations pushing regulations that harm the competition. The GMO thing blew up in your face so fast you dropped it like a hot potato. The JD one is the only thing you've got left and that has been established to not harm the competition but protect smaller and larger corporations against the biggest player in the market. You weren't able to produce anything but an article with interviews to back up your claim. You could've shown revenue numbers or profits because enough time has passed but for a very weird reason, you don't want to go there. My guess is you've looked at them and found out that you are entirely wrong and just hope no one else does it so you can use that one regulation as an example for your black/white reasoning that if you aren't against one "unnecessary" regulation you mustn't be against abortion regulations.

    But where you are the wrongest any person ever was in the history of being wrong is when you equate healthcare to regular services and even products because most of the time people have very very little choice in what healthcare "service" they can use which should be obvious to everyone that ever had to go to the doctor because of an emergency.

    That's why you're a hypocrite. And that's why it's ironic that you preach one thing and constantly argue for the exact opposite while screaming you're against it.
    I'm more than willing to talk a out the GMO thing, let's do it.

    The dude who is saying it's just marketing saying I'm wrong doesn't make it so. A bunch of hypocritical progressives disagreeing with me doesn't make me wrong.

    Do I need to remind you that you called this all marketing?

    Oh, and abortion is a service,you really need to learn what words mean.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2021-04-13 at 12:25 PM.

  19. #1499
    Herald of the Titans bladeXcrasher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Na, you've presented regulations that you thought were a perfect example of corporations pushing regulations that harm the competition. The GMO thing blew up in your face so fast you dropped it like a hot potato. The JD one is the only thing you've got left and that has been established to not harm the competition but protect smaller and larger corporations against the biggest player in the market. You weren't able to produce anything but an article with interviews to back up your claim. You could've shown revenue numbers or profits because enough time has passed but for a very weird reason, you don't want to go there. My guess is you've looked at them and found out that you are entirely wrong and just hope no one else does it so you can use that one regulation as an example for your black/white reasoning that if you aren't against one "unnecessary" regulation you mustn't be against abortion regulations.

    But where you are the wrongest any person ever was in the history of being wrong is when you equate healthcare to regular services and even products because most of the time people have very very little choice in what healthcare "service" they can use which should be obvious to everyone that ever had to go to the doctor because of an emergency.

    That's why you're a hypocrite. And that's why it's ironic that you preach one thing and constantly argue for the exact opposite while screaming you're against it.
    Ivanstone already showed them that more distilleries opened that make Tennessee Whiskey since the regulation was passed or that distilleries making said whiskey by said process also have had increased revenue since then. They just ignored those facts and kept taking about this harming people even though everyone knows that all Tennessee Whiskey now has to adhere to the specific Lincoln County distillation and resting method and have at least a majority of corn for it's starch, otherwise its just bourbon. Somehow increased consumer confidence in a specifically labeled product is bad.

  20. #1500
    Quote Originally Posted by bladeXcrasher View Post
    Ivanstone already showed them that more distilleries opened that make Tennessee Whiskey since the regulation was passed or that distilleries making said whiskey by said process also have had increased revenue since then. They just ignored those facts and kept taking about this harming people even though everyone knows that all Tennessee Whiskey now has to adhere to the specific Lincoln County distillation and resting method and have at least a majority of corn for it's starch, otherwise its just bourbon. Somehow increased consumer confidence in a specifically labeled product is bad.
    And I showed thar more medical clinics opened up in Texas, so I guess those abortion regulations are fine... right?

    I guess requiring that medical facilities be required tonfollow the Austin County process must be improving consumer confidence.

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