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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Compher View Post
    Eh ok, the other half of my argument still stands. What does a M+20 offer over a M+15? Because people still do them with motivation other than gear related.
    Rio to get into groups easier. But you'll see a huge drop off in participation after the 15/16 level.

    Also every key level higher, gives 20% more chance for an additional 210 to drop

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Pum View Post
    I do not understand why so many people want higher ilevels just for the sake of it.
    Because Blizzard says I need more gear if I want to solo M Legion raids.
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  3. #43
    I certainly do not expect or deserve Mythic Raid iLvl gear, if I'm not running Mythic raids.

    But Legion and BfA seemed to drop better gear compared to Shadowlands loot, and more frequently in M+ dungeon runs in those previous expansions, and World Boss gear seemed a bit better then too, and dropped more often.

    Again, I never expect or want Heroic or Mythic Raid level gear from WQs, LOL no way. But I will say SL World Quest drops seem awfully low, I only see like i190 gear, and my main is i209.

    Or even running a bunch of low M+ keys on alts, I can run the 4 Mythics for the weekly treasure thing, and still get almost no gear on those runs. That week I ran M+ keys from like +1 to +9 and I think I got one gear reward, that wasn't some crap or just some Soulbind thing, or sometimes nothing at all.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Super skilled player vs ten year old mashing 2 buttons would be a difference of twice the damage. But skilled player vs the average player is no where near that and gear makes a much bigger difference. Go into m+15. Takes the most skilled player at 200 ilvl vs the average m+15 player in 226. Average is gonna shit all over his damage
    I don't have log analysis from keys, but I can do it from raid logs.

    Lets take th same boss from CN, 1st boss, heroic. The best fire mage in 200 ilvl bracket does 4,6k dps.
    Average 220 ilvl does 4k. 20 ilvl difference and skilled player still on top here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    That'a not true at all. Sure player skill plays the biggest role but character power is also needed, hence why you have world first guilds spending millions of gold on bie's and why everyone keeps farming the raids after the first clear.

    If character power was so meaningless and irrelevant then there would be no point to keep farming the content after the first clear.

    We're not talking good vs bad players, we're talking about the very same player vs himself in better gear.

    Good player + gear = Good player
    Good player + better gear = Better player
    I don't mean that gear means nothing. It just means pretty less than average players think. A mere tool. I started to think about it a long time ago and do not care about gear at all, I always try to push harder content without bothering about ilvl, better gear will drop sooner or later, so I do not care at all about it.

    Also about top-ranked play: its like F1, where every +1mph is matter for victory, so the best guilds gather best players, best leaders, best teams, best possible gear, best consumables, etc etc. Even 1% difference is matter here. But its nothing for average player. He do not even have enough skill to utilize that difference properly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Compher View Post
    Eh ok, the other half of my argument still stands. What does a M+20 offer over a M+15? Because people still do them with motivation other than gear related.
    Because of rankings Be it official like first top100 mythic killers or unofficial like better rio, etc.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pum View Post
    I do not understand why so many people want higher ilevels just for the sake of it.

    If you are not doing Mythic raiding or at the high end of PvP ladders you literally have zero business having access or even having reasoning to have higher i level gear upwards of 220+. If you are not doing these activities why do you want it? Why do you need it? Hello? Higher ilevel is a means to an end, why has this been forgotten for expansions on end?

    I can't get my head round this mentality.
    People like big numbers? And believe the main gameplay is about that.

    It has been so since the dawn of WoW.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by iinverse View Post
    I don't have log analysis from keys, but I can do it from raid logs.

    Lets take th same boss from CN, 1st boss, heroic. The best fire mage in 200 ilvl bracket does 4,6k dps.
    Average 220 ilvl does 4k. 20 ilvl difference and skilled player still on top here.

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    I don't mean that gear means nothing. It just means pretty less than average players think. A mere tool. I started to think about it a long time ago and do not care about gear at all, I always try to push harder content without bothering about ilvl, better gear will drop sooner or later, so I do not care at all about it.

    Also about top-ranked play: its like F1, where every +1mph is matter for victory, so the best guilds gather best players, best leaders, best teams, best possible gear, best consumables, etc etc. Even 1% difference is matter here. But its nothing for average player. He do not even have enough skill to utilize that difference properly.
    Thats the first boss. That's every pug ever. Try a much later boss.

    That mage also got 2 power infusions.

    I'm not saying skill isn't important. But average player in 226 is gonna beat amazing player in 200 more often than not. And considering its rarely the best player ever vs average guy, gear plays a more important role. Its usually 2 average guys bs each other, or above average vs slightly above average in same content

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Compher View Post
    People did the Ulduar hard modes, and I don't believe they offered better loot, maybe just more of it. M+ 20 doesn't offer better gear than 15 does, doesn't offer more valor, and plenty of people are still pushing keys for no reason other than a higher io and the challenge. So yeah, people would probably still raid mythic just for achievements and mounts/cosmetics.
    They question wasn't if people would do it but whether a LOT of people would do it. Remove all the rewards from mythic raiding and I believe that the participation would plummet.

  8. #48
    Why are people obsessed with dick size?

    Because the larger it is the better.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    They question wasn't if people would do it but whether a LOT of people would do it. Remove all the rewards from mythic raiding and I believe that the participation would plummet.
    people dont do anything unless it gives them loot. which is why they dont try new things and add different kinds of content. people wouldnt touch torghast if they didnt have to for legendaries. thats why we get dead spots where people cry for new content - that they can immediately tell you is garbage and play it anyway.

    im actually happy that they dont listen to the playerbase on everything - the game would have died ages ago if they did.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by iinverse View Post
    Actual progress is killing stronger bosses, defeat harder raids/dungeons. Gear is just a tool for that.

    I almost never can say "look at that dude, he is 220 ilvl, he is stronger", because ilvl is pretty small part of actual character power. But I definitely can say "look at that dude, he did KSM in 200 ilvl, he is really strong".
    The last sentence is arguable (could have bought boosts or being carried or had the luxury to play with a fixed group) but the principle itself is correct.

  11. #51
    It’s ok to admit that you don’t like people being stronger than you because they executed the means to achieve stronger gear better than you did. It’s called envy.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by iinverse View Post
    I don't have log analysis from keys, but I can do it from raid logs.

    Lets take th same boss from CN, 1st boss, heroic. The best fire mage in 200 ilvl bracket does 4,6k dps.
    Average 220 ilvl does 4k. 20 ilvl difference and skilled player still on top here.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I don't mean that gear means nothing. It just means pretty less than average players think. A mere tool. I started to think about it a long time ago and do not care about gear at all, I always try to push harder content without bothering about ilvl, better gear will drop sooner or later, so I do not care at all about it.

    Also about top-ranked play: its like F1, where every +1mph is matter for victory, so the best guilds gather best players, best leaders, best teams, best possible gear, best consumables, etc etc. Even 1% difference is matter here. But its nothing for average player. He do not even have enough skill to utilize that difference properly.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Because of rankings Be it official like first top100 mythic killers or unofficial like better rio, etc.
    I agree, it's a tool but it's a tool for everyone. Better gear allows players to be better at what they do, be it M+5 , +20, normal or mythic raiding or even just messing around doing world quests. Is absolute highest mandatory? No. Is it wrong to want to perform the best one can? Also no.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Pum View Post
    I do not understand why so many people want higher ilevels just for the sake of it.

    If you are not doing Mythic raiding or at the high end of PvP ladders you literally have zero business having access or even having reasoning to have higher i level gear upwards of 220+. If you are not doing these activities why do you want it? Why do you need it? Hello? Higher ilevel is a means to an end, why has this been forgotten for expansions on end?

    I can't get my head round this mentality.
    This seems to be a you issue. Why should it make any difference to you how someone else wants to play the game that they pay for? Why should you need to understand or even influence it by posting in communities questioning their reasoning? Why are you that important?

  14. #54
    Because WoW at it's core is a math game and higher ilvl makes the game easier.

    It's in a really shitty spot right now for BG's.

    If you have a new character your stuck in random BG's that give low honor and conquest against a team of half stacked players or you can spend 20-30 minutes making an RBG group and get stomped by the same stacked players, get shit honor/conquest and have your group disband immediately after.

    There is no other option.

  15. #55
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    In short it makes players feel like hot shit. They think it equates to playerskill and experience at a glance - as if you can't have those if you spend your time differently/don't want to bother with such anal content. Lord forbid you're simply unlucky with loot. For pugging there's no time efficient straight answers so we end up with this nightmare as a substitute because players are scared of a little conversation and love judging each other at a glance. Everyone knew it was a terrible idea but enough specifically asked for it to somehow make pugging easier. And thus this keeps coming up every day as people only care about numbers
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  16. #56
    It's progress and every bit of progress makes the next bit of progress easier, and if you don't understand that, you shouldn't be playing in or discussing an MMO.
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  17. #57
    The highest ilevel that matters is the lowest ilevel required to complete the content.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Tikishock View Post
    Why are people obsessed with dick size?

    Because the larger it is the better.
    Technically speaking and in an “egoistical” male side only, size is probably irrelevant, you won’t have more pleasure if it’s bigger, your partner maybe would but again, your side is irrelevant unless your goal is your partner having more pleasure than yourself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pum View Post
    I do not understand why so many people want higher ilevels just for the sake of it.

    If you are not doing Mythic raiding or at the high end of PvP ladders you literally have zero business having access or even having reasoning to have higher i level gear upwards of 220+. If you are not doing these activities why do you want it? Why do you need it? Hello? Higher ilevel is a means to an end, why has this been forgotten for expansions on end?

    I can't get my head round this mentality.
    Powerful gear gives a sense of character progression and makes thing you do easier, regardless what they are.

    Two months ago I was making Torghast layer 6 only because with my 195 ilvl layer 8 as an healer just took too much time to justify the little ashes increase in the end and even layer 6 took me 1 hour per wing to finish.

    I then stopped doing Torghast due to no more ash needed, today I’m 215, tried to do both wings at layer 8 because I spent all ash I had to change my legendary and I breezed through both wings in a little more than 1 hour total. Hint: it’s not because I’m a better player than two months ago, the damage rotation for healers is plain braindead.

  19. #59
    There is no good, no evil, there is only POWAH.

  20. #60
    people only care about bag ilvl. that gets you into groups. nobody cares about your equipped ilvl.
    (and in hard content, people don't care about ilvl but a different 3rd party website number. same story higher number gets you into groups and nobody cares how you got the number. until you get to very hard content, where the number people care about changes yet again.)

    why do people care? well not in the least because blizzard kinda pushes you to care about it. your ilvl in char screen gets a fancier color if it gets higher afterall.

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