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  1. #61
    people only care about bag ilvl. that gets you into groups. nobody cares about your equipped ilvl.
    (and in hard content, people don't care about ilvl but a different 3rd party website number. same story higher number gets you into groups and nobody cares how you got the number. until you get to very hard content, where the number people care about changes yet again.)

    why do people care? well not in the least because blizzard kinda pushes you to care about it. your ilvl in char screen gets a fancier color if it gets higher afterall.

  2. #62
    Titan Frozenbeef's Avatar
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    Should just bring gearscore back, I'm sure everyone loved that.

    Gear has been a waste of time for me since TBC since it just gets reset every few months (and each time takes months to acquire again)

    I prefer to hunt for mounts,pets, achievements and toys. Unfortunately sometimes that means I need higher ilevel than the content I enjoy gives.

  3. #63
    Higher ilevel is a means to an end, why has this been forgotten for expansions on end?
    getting gear is the end for a lot of people. people quit/take a break from the game because they hit a plateau of some sort, and if like you said you aren't mythic raiding or doing high rated pvp, that plateau tends to be gear related.

  4. #64
    Epic!
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    Item level is directly related to gear, which is the primary progression system in the game.
    As that item level goes up, the quality of the gear (generally) goes up, and the content you consume (generally) becomes easier due to you being more powerful.

    As for pugs, they care about ilevel as one of a few factors to try to figure out if you're worth the time.
    Combined with IO/M+ history, it tells you if the person is worth the gamble of bringing them.

    If item level wasn't exposed, there would be a gearscore addon to make it, or people would just armory you and calculate it themselves.
    But since ilvl is exposed, it's a prime metric of advancement and quality.

  5. #65
    The higher my ilvl the more betterer I am as a person!

    Seriously tho it's been said to death but progression IS wow. Ilvl is one of the easiest to both see and understand measurements of progression for players.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by iinverse View Post
    Its directly tied in WoW. Skill is the main measure of progress and power. Ilvl difference can give you sometning like +20% - + 50% dps (if you're skillful enough to utilize it, of course, it can be much worse if you can't), while skilled player can do 100-300% better with the same ilvl. Constantly see it in pug raids.
    Yes your skill level effects what you see on the damage on charts. Duh. I don't know what that has anything to with what I said.

    power has zero to do with skill. You still have X amount of stats whether you are a mythic raider or just someone that pugs normal every now and then with the same ilvl.

  7. #67
    Cause a very high % of the population, thinks that item level reflects their skill, and they dont like it when they realize they are part of the cesspool, and not some special snowflake.

    Shadowlands has made this more prominent after 2-3 expansions of freebie gear from multiple sources, now that its a bit more limited, all hell is breaking loose.

    Because now Little Billy, cant do <insert expansion freebie mechanic like Warfront>/4 dungeon Mythic weekly for HC chest/get lucky with +7-10 weekly chest + random Titanforges for 5-6 months and reach 220 item level when everyone is at 225-230, he is stuck at 210, and now Little Billy is complaining he is not part of the elite, because he doesnt understand how the game actually work.

    The funny fact, is the other Little Billy's literally requested these changes

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Cause a very high % of the population, thinks that item level reflects their skill, and they dont like it when they realize they are part of the cesspool, and not some special snowflake.

    Shadowlands has made this more prominent after 2-3 expansions of freebie gear from multiple sources, now that its a bit more limited, all hell is breaking loose.

    Because now Little Billy, cant do <insert expansion freebie mechanic like Warfront>/4 dungeon Mythic weekly for HC chest/get lucky with +7-10 weekly chest + random Titanforges for 5-6 months and reach 220 item level when everyone is at 225-230, he is stuck at 210, and now Little Billy is complaining he is not part of the elite, because he doesnt understand how the game actually work.

    The funny fact, is the other Little Billy's literally requested these changes
    I want to say your wrong... but it does kind of seem to be the case. It is why I am always baffled why lengthy grind systems are applauded until I recall who they are aimed at.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost controller View Post
    I want to say your wrong... but it does kind of seem to be the case. It is why I am always baffled why lengthy grind systems are applauded until I recall who they are aimed at.
    Its why boosting communities exist, its why there are some people that think P2W exists in WoW.

    They think there is some sort of "win", in the system of World of Warcraft, if you reach some item level, or copy some youtuber with some macro that deals high damage, or whatever goes on in their low-game knowledge brain.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Its why boosting communities exist, its why there are some people that think P2W exists in WoW.

    They think there is some sort of "win", in the system of World of Warcraft, if you reach some item level, or copy some youtuber with some macro that deals high damage, or whatever goes on in their low-game knowledge brain.
    I mean there are clear win conditions for each type of content. Raiders get CE pvpers get glad. There exists an end state.

  11. #71
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Not really. You can progress in a raid. You can find players that take your for your performance or personality. Gear is the means to an end, not the end itself.
    Ye, but why kill those bosses for? I dont care about loot (my personal loot) either but if every boss would only drop vendor greys, who would do it? I wouldnt, and that is why I dont spend my leisure time on wow beating capitol elite guards just because its hard.
    And while I agree that personality and performance matter too, lets look at the average guy who ques to an activity and leaves without saying anything - what matters to this guy the most?
    Last edited by Cuppy; 2021-04-08 at 07:07 PM. Reason: Grammar. 2nd grammar
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
    Mr. Smith about the cost of Triple-spec
    3k gold right off the bat, about 5 silver a week later.

  12. #72
    I'm pretty sick and tired of mythic raiders claiming that they don't want the gear, they need it and it's a means to an end. If you were to remove gear from mythic raids and have it be about only skill most of them would quit raiding that very same day.

    They're there because they want the gear. Is it strange that other players also want gear?

  13. #73
    Anima, pet battle charms and iLvl - binary data expressed in different ways.

    Yet different ones deliver different rewards to the brain.

    It is odd isn't it

    Due to COVID-19, Germany is running out of sausages and cheese.
    The government considers this to be the Wurst Käse scenario

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost controller View Post
    I mean there are clear win conditions for each type of content. Raiders get CE pvpers get glad. There exists an end state.
    Its a slippery slope discussion, because its not a win condition de facto, especially for PvE, what did they win? Its not like the achievement has limitations, you can start nitpicking and end up with something that everyone agrees on.

    But as example, i dont consider someone a Mythic Raider "winner" that killed the last boss, 1 week before the next patch, with like, 2xdamage buff patches on random classes over the period of it, and 25% nerfs on everything as is the case for years now.

    They literally cleared a different raid than the top guilds.

    PvP rating is mostly the same, Gladiator is now an achievement, end of season glad/mount is the higher tier, where yes, you can do a "win condition" then, in that part of the game, but its not gear related, so many months in, everyone has the gear levels in PvP.

    As i said, these discussions literally come down to "BUT MY OPINION".

  15. #75
    At the end of the day iLvl says what your max capabilities are.
    You aren't going to take a 113 iLvl to do M+20 and expect them to "carry their own weight", that's just dumb.
    Also, more power makes the stuff you don't like to do, but "have" to do, easier and faster.

    Contrary to what the fools say "hurr durr iLvl doesn't mean you're good" and whatever other stupid stuff comes out of their mouths.. iLvl is king, at the end of the day.

    A way to help with this would be to have golf competitions. Those with the LOWEST iLvl but most successful runs would help.
    But, again, those are people with very good skills.. but it would show you that "at best, at the very best, this is as far as this iLvl goes".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    I'm pretty sick and tired of mythic raiders claiming that they don't want the gear, they need it and it's a means to an end. If you were to remove gear from mythic raids and have it be about only skill most of them would quit raiding that very same day.

    They're there because they want the gear. Is it strange that other players also want gear?
    There are MANY games out there without a grind that people play repetitively every day. What's sad is the dev's rarely play other games so they aren't well rounded gamers. I mean Ghostcralwer has never played Counter Strike... which is one of those games I've never met a gamer that didn't play it.

    People play PvP because it's fun. Not because you get rewards. Rewards are a bonus.

    When you play Overwatch, you earn trivial things -- not new abilities.
    When you play Counter-Strike, you play for fun or rating. You don't grind new gear.
    When you play ... .name a game.. you usually play it FOR FUN... not because you get something out of it.

    So, in my opinion, Mythic everything should have a set iLvl you have when you join. You can pick your trinket and go. Can't beat a boss? That's on you. You can't cheese by getting better gear and making it easier because you aren't as good.

    You could, just as easily, remove all gear from the game and have it be based on the zone you're in and it could still be a fun game.

    Gear only matters to people because, for some, that's all they know in WoW and they can't mentally comprehend anything different.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Its a slippery slope discussion, because its not a win condition de facto, especially for PvE, what did they win? Its not like the achievement has limitations, you can start nitpicking and end up with something that everyone agrees on.

    But as example, i dont consider someone a Mythic Raider "winner" that killed the last boss, 1 week before the next patch, with like, 2xdamage buff patches on random classes over the period of it, and 25% nerfs on everything as is the case for years now.

    They literally cleared a different raid than the top guilds.

    PvP rating is mostly the same, Gladiator is now an achievement, end of season glad/mount is the higher tier, where yes, you can do a "win condition" then, in that part of the game, but its not gear related, so many months in, everyone has the gear levels in PvP.

    As i said, these discussions literally come down to "BUT MY OPINION".
    There really hasn't been a nerf that big in a while. Unless you count the end of expansion everyone gets a trophy fight. Stone legion generals is the most I think a fight has been nerfed barring the aforementioned in recent memory.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Thats the first boss. That's every pug ever. Try a much later boss.
    Lets see Sire H, 220 ilvl bracket: good fire mage - 8k dps, bad fire mage - 2,8k. Same ilvl, same 200% difference.
    Lets try to vary ilvl: good 210 ilvl - 6,1k. Better than bad 220 ilvl. Good 200 ilvl - 4,8k. Still better than bad 220 ilvl. Even good 190 ilvl is better than bad 220 ilvl.

    Same for average - you will get much better performance if stop whine about gear and work on skill.

    Back to question: the real progress is killing stronger bosses/completing harder dungeons, not ilvl numbers.
    Even outside WoW and games overall, hero is became more powerful if he defeated greater villain, not when he found better trousers.

  18. #78
    Good luck getting into any given M+ with a 200 ilvl and depending on the class you're playing, most classes can't do better than mediocre/ average in Regular BGs.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacewalrus2010 View Post
    Yes your skill level effects what you see on the damage on charts. Duh. I don't know what that has anything to with what I said.
    power has zero to do with skill. You still have X amount of stats whether you are a mythic raider or just someone that pugs normal every now and then with the same ilvl.
    I'm saying that ilvl has minimal impact to character performance. Investing in skill is much better. Those who whines about ilvl just hits their skill ceiling. Improve skill -> get better gear. Or wait for content nerfs.

  20. #80
    Pandaren Monk
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    oooooo we renamed the other 55 page thread of nonsense and recreated it from the other perspective, this should be great!
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"

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