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  1. #81
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElDoorO View Post
    There are MANY games out there without a grind that people play repetitively every day. What's sad is the dev's rarely play other games so they aren't well rounded gamers. I mean Ghostcralwer has never played Counter Strike... which is one of those games I've never met a gamer that didn't play it.

    People play PvP because it's fun. Not because you get rewards. Rewards are a bonus.

    When you play Overwatch, you earn trivial things -- not new abilities.
    When you play Counter-Strike, you play for fun or rating. You don't grind new gear.
    When you play ... .name a game.. you usually play it FOR FUN... not because you get something out of it.

    So, in my opinion, Mythic everything should have a set iLvl you have when you join. You can pick your trinket and go. Can't beat a boss? That's on you. You can't cheese by getting better gear and making it easier because you aren't as good.

    You could, just as easily, remove all gear from the game and have it be based on the zone you're in and it could still be a fun game.

    Gear only matters to people because, for some, that's all they know in WoW and they can't mentally comprehend anything different.
    Don't compare the reasons people play pvp games to why people play and enjoy pve rpgs. They're not comparable in the slightest. Getting better equipment to overcome a difficult challenge is at the heart of the RPG genre, which is what this game originally was based on.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Don't compare the reasons people play pvp games to why people play and enjoy pve rpgs. They're not comparable in the slightest. Getting better equipment to overcome a difficult challenge is at the heart of the RPG genre, which is what this game originally was based on.
    And yet.. you could still remove it and people would still have fun. So clearly it's not THAT big of a deal.

    So yeah... they are similar. PvP doesn't need gear. Arguably the "best" seasons was when they normalized iLvl quite a bit more.

    You can't tell me people play "Doom" so they can get better "gear". No, they play to blow shit up and stomp monsters faces in.

    You don't play StarCraft because you get better stuff on newer maps. No, you play because it's an RTS. And comp maps everyone is equal. People can't "earn" more stuff to start off with.

    Perhaps you're confusing RPG's with MMORPG's of which WoW is barely that anymore, if you compare to MMORPG's all over. Ya know back when a +6 sword was a HUGE deal and basically everyone had whties, greens, and only a lucky few had blue's and almost no one had purps.

    So.. no. MMORPG's are for.. role.. player. Not "gear grinding".

    I can't help but wonder if people here don't have much game experience other than WoW or something...
    .. p.s. WoW was based on an RTS game.. so... like.. hardcore, even game code... so... not sure that's the argument you want to make.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Don't compare the reasons people play pvp games to why people play and enjoy pve rpgs. They're not comparable in the slightest. Getting better equipment to overcome a difficult challenge is at the heart of the RPG genre, which is what this game originally was based on.
    It depends on the RPG. Unfortunately in MMORPGS where the best rewards come with grouped content and the combat system is crappy, yes, you need gear to overcome difficulties.

    In Souls type rpgs for example, gear is far less important. You can rely on it but it’s only one of the means you have to overcome IA.

    The concepts of oneshots and unavoidable damage should be banned from RPG games, imho.

  4. #84
    Stopped giving a fuck about gear once I stopped raiding back in cata. Now I just get "good enough gear"...so Ilvl 205 atm, and then just live with that. I just need to be able to grind my achivements, mounts and crap...Rest I can buy boosts with golds or whatever from all my AH play.

    Edit; Good gear is fun through. Back in 8.3 I had really good gear, only missed like...1-2 trinkets and better azerite item and corruption raid weapon, rest was great...Made things more fun, and some grinds faster like island farm or w/e.

    AH play making millions is the best I have found to just get what I need over time...so thats that.
    Last edited by Djuntas; 2021-04-08 at 08:11 PM.
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  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaizun View Post
    Do you legit not understand it... in an RPG, or are you just using that as a rhetorical? People want higher ilvl to be stronger. Simple as. It doesn't matter what content you're doing, having higher stats/ilvl makes it easier/quicker.

    Whether or not you agree with that, is something else entirely. This has been discussed to death. The majority of comments will likely be- it doesn't matter to you. But perhaps you can bring something new to the conversation.
    It was a genuine question, because it is an incessant topic around here of endless complaint when so many are not mythic raiders and have no intention of mythic raiding, who are progressing in heroic CA or already have AotC.

    I don't know, am I just so detached from the average player I can't see why 220+ ilevel is required for heroic raiding? I can understand the power progression aspect however without the means I feel it's pointless.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pum View Post
    I do not understand why so many people want higher ilevels just for the sake of it.

    If you are not doing Mythic raiding or at the high end of PvP ladders you literally have zero business having access or even having reasoning to have higher i level gear upwards of 220+. If you are not doing these activities why do you want it? Why do you need it? Hello? Higher ilevel is a means to an end, why has this been forgotten for expansions on end?

    I can't get my head round this mentality.
    The game has always been gear driven, even when gear scaling in pvp was a thing it was still revolving around gear. If you pug as much as I do (I dont have friends) - you'll notice more invites JUST because of ilvl. You'll have more people wanting to invite you to content with a higher ilvl, and this my friend - is FACT.

    Lets try this in the real world. Lets say I have two people in front of me, they are EXACTLY identical in every way EXCEPT that one persons in debt 10,000,000U$D and the other person HAS 10,000,000U$D. The issue isn't that people are drawn to someone with a higher number it's just that you expect that person to likely have their shit together.

    Go ahead, run an m+ group and invite that 149 ilvl person for your weekly no leaver 14/15 this week.. Go ahead tell me how it goes

  7. #87
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElDoorO View Post
    And yet.. you could still remove it and people would still have fun. So clearly it's not THAT big of a deal.

    So yeah... they are similar. PvP doesn't need gear. Arguably the "best" seasons was when they normalized iLvl quite a bit more.

    You can't tell me people play "Doom" so they can get better "gear". No, they play to blow shit up and stomp monsters faces in.

    You don't play StarCraft because you get better stuff on newer maps. No, you play because it's an RTS. And comp maps everyone is equal. People can't "earn" more stuff to start off with.

    Perhaps you're confusing RPG's with MMORPG's of which WoW is barely that anymore, if you compare to MMORPG's all over. Ya know back when a +6 sword was a HUGE deal and basically everyone had whties, greens, and only a lucky few had blue's and almost no one had purps.

    So.. no. MMORPG's are for.. role.. player. Not "gear grinding".

    I can't help but wonder if people here don't have much game experience other than WoW or something...
    .. p.s. WoW was based on an RTS game.. so... like.. hardcore, even game code... so... not sure that's the argument you want to make.
    Again you're comparing pvp games to pve, a bad idea. You've made the assumption that you could remove gear, and the game would be fun, I completely disagree with that notion. Let's take a look at Gw2 which has no gear grind. That game has struggled for years to maintain player engagement in regards to reward systems, and has a massive issue with bloated currencies because they seemingly have no idea how to entice players to stay without meaningful rewards. It has been tried, and it does not work in MMOs. Not a single successful one has no gear grind.


    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    It depends on the RPG. Unfortunately in MMORPGS where the best rewards come with grouped content and the combat system is crappy, yes, you need gear to overcome difficulties.

    In Souls type rpgs for example, gear is far less important. You can rely on it but it’s only one of the means you have to overcome IA.

    The concepts of oneshots and unavoidable damage should be banned from RPG games, imho.
    Tab-target is not a crappy combat system. It's simply different. That would be as ridiculous as me saying all turn-based combat systems suck, and they flat out don't. Look at Divinity Original Sin and its sequel, or the Fire Emblem games, and any number of successful RPGs. The reason action combat works in single-player rpgs is because they're designed to be played in short bursts so that you aren't fatigued by the constant need for quick reaction times and extremely low latency. MMOs are designed to be somewhat slower, to rely less on reaction.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Pum View Post
    I do not understand why so many people want higher ilevels just for the sake of it.

    If you are not doing Mythic raiding or at the high end of PvP ladders you literally have zero business having access or even having reasoning to have higher i level gear upwards of 220+. If you are not doing these activities why do you want it? Why do you need it? Hello? Higher ilevel is a means to an end, why has this been forgotten for expansions on end?

    I can't get my head round this mentality.
    No one's asking for mythic gear, but there would be nothing wrong with being able to progress to, say, 210 as a solo player. What would be so wrong with the system we had before where a random BGer could slowly earn conquest and upgrade that way? Still slower than the rated PvP folks and it would make PvP not a hopeless endeavor .

  9. #89
    Scarab Lord Master Guns's Avatar
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    Imagine being the OP, and actually believing that how others play the game or the rewards they get, or better yet, HOW they got them, is relevant to you at all if you're actually doing those things such as high end pvp or mythic raiding?

    You want to know what REAL mythic raiders think about people getting good gear they don't need? They don't fucking care.

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  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Again you're comparing pvp games to pve, a bad idea. You've made the assumption that you could remove gear, and the game would be fun, I completely disagree with that notion. Let's take a look at Gw2 which has no gear grind. That game has struggled for years to maintain player engagement in regards to reward systems, and has a massive issue with bloated currencies because they seemingly have no idea how to entice players to stay without meaningful rewards. It has been tried, and it does not work in MMOs. Not a single successful one has no gear grind.




    Tab-target is not a crappy combat system. It's simply different. That would be as ridiculous as me saying all turn-based combat systems suck, and they flat out don't. Look at Divinity Original Sin and its sequel, or the Fire Emblem games, and any number of successful RPGs. The reason action combat works in single-player rpgs is because they're designed to be played in short bursts so that you aren't fatigued by the constant need for quick reaction times and extremely low latency. MMOs are designed to be somewhat slower, to rely less on reaction.
    It’s perfect in mmorpgs where you HAVE to rely on others 100% to do some type of content, I agree, but it’s not my favorite.

    But again it’s probably me that cannot stand tracking and unavoidable damage (not to talk about dots). Cheap mechanics for me.
    Last edited by chiddie; 2021-04-08 at 09:00 PM.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pum View Post
    It was a genuine question, because it is an incessant topic around here of endless complaint when so many are not mythic raiders and have no intention of mythic raiding, who are progressing in heroic CA or already have AotC.

    I don't know, am I just so detached from the average player I can't see why 220+ ilevel is required for heroic raiding? I can understand the power progression aspect however without the means I feel it's pointless.
    No it's a legitimate point that's raised every tier a month or two in, groups being made by players either looking to get carried or just hold a race-clear and dpsmeter wank run for lulz while DEing most of the gear and turning away droves of players still needing loot/progressing if not rubbing it in their faces in the process. If anyone's detached it's these dudes who'll take payment for participating/trading loot they don't need in groups they joined and feel are beneath them to be in without compensation one way or another.
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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by ElDoorO View Post

    So.. no. MMORPG's are for.. role.. player. Not "gear grinding".
    I love how you try to call on WC3 and RTS and other "Game experience", when you dont even know the game you play, WoW is literally gear chasing simulator and always has been, it will die when it stops being one, literally.

    WoW was literally the Western world "light", in the darkness of shitty ass korean grinders with the irrelevant +6 bullshit, so yes, tell more about your game experience.

    But yes, this is a usual post of "My experience is the correct one cause i do not know better, and no one can tell me i am wrong cause since i dont experience it, it doesnt exist".

    WoW has only changed 2 actual things in its 16 years of existence, anything else is QOL changes that irrelevant baddies complain about for years now.

    1)It became a MMOARPG , A for action, cause the speed of the gameplay changed compared to Pre-Cata, and has been changing since, till Legion when it became even more Action based with the changes to mob response movement system, i can understand how the game changing gameplay speed is affecting many that cant keep up, i do not disagree with it that the game was changed fundamentally because of that, but its core is still the same, gear chasing simulator.

    2)They realized they cant appease the masses, and they cant make them get better no matter how hard they tried for 3 expansions, so they gave up and instead we have catch up systems every single raid tier.

    Linear progression of Vanilla failed back then, cause less than 0.1% even saw the interior of Naxxramas, and barely anyone even saw any of the other raid content also.

    TBC split raiding was the same, barely anyone pushed past Karazhan according to their data, and those that did, they had the same problem in Sunwell eventually, 0.1% only.

    Then they tried easier modes (10mans) and Hard Modes in WOTLK, and then magically, something worked! Skip all previous content with ICC dungeons, and suddenly everyone was running around in proper gear for the patch, instead of 10 million players stuck doing daily HC dungeons only, while the 1% was in ICC, some started improving, trying ICC 10man, Gear Score appeared because more people were trying to do content out of their knowledge/skill level, which means, it worked.

    And this trend has continued all the way until now, spoiling the players more and more and more, making them not having to never improve to get things.

    And all of the above was requested by the 99%, the better players do not give a care in the world, they will get their items the first month or two and slack it out.

    Now that Blizzard once more listened to the 99% requesting "less gear, more Vanilla feeling, more choices", the 99% is crying again because after years of spoiling them with loot, now they are being told "Just go do the easy content man, you literally asked for these changes, wtf!"
    Last edited by potis; 2021-04-08 at 11:33 PM.

  13. #93
    Why are some so obsessed with *other people's* ilevels and how they got them?

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by iinverse View Post
    Most players doesn't care about ilvl, just about rio (key progression) or bosses killed/curve (raid progression).
    9/10 leaders will get player with better rio than with higher ilvl.
    If someone is ilv 195 and did KSM I will just assume that they got carried by guildies or bought a boost.

  15. #95
    Gear is means for an end, but it's also just an achievement people are pursuing. No rocket science there
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  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Pum View Post
    I do not understand why so many people want higher ilevels just for the sake of it.

    If you are not doing Mythic raiding or at the high end of PvP ladders you literally have zero business having access or even having reasoning to have higher i level gear upwards of 220+. If you are not doing these activities why do you want it? Why do you need it? Hello? Higher ilevel is a means to an end, why has this been forgotten for expansions on end?

    I can't get my head round this mentality.
    Because this is a video game and people want to progress their characters. I mean I would have thought this is bloody obvious. I don't need a Ferrari in real life either and neither does anyone who isn't a racing driver, but do people want them? Yes. Do people who play the guitar for a hobby need a $4000 instrument? No, but just because they aren't professionals that doesn't mean there isn't a desire for it.
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  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    I love how you try to call on WC3 and RTS and other "Game experience", when you dont even know the game you play, WoW is literally gear chasing simulator and always has been, it will die when it stops being one, literally.

    WoW was literally the Western world "light", in the darkness of shitty ass korean grinders with the irrelevant +6 bullshit, so yes, tell more about your game experience.

    But yes, this is a usual post of "My experience is the correct one cause i do not know better, and no one can tell me i am wrong cause since i dont experience it, it doesnt exist".

    WoW has only changed 2 actual things in its 16 years of existence, anything else is QOL changes that irrelevant baddies complain about for years now.

    1)It became a MMOARPG , A for action, cause the speed of the gameplay changed compared to Pre-Cata, and has been changing since, till Legion when it became even more Action based with the changes to mob response movement system, i can understand how the game changing gameplay speed is affecting many that cant keep up, i do not disagree with it that the game was changed fundamentally because of that, but its core is still the same, gear chasing simulator.

    2)They realized they cant appease the masses, and they cant make them get better no matter how hard they tried for 3 expansions, so they gave up and instead we have catch up systems every single raid tier.

    Linear progression of Vanilla failed back then, cause less than 0.1% even saw the interior of Naxxramas, and barely anyone even saw any of the other raid content also.

    TBC split raiding was the same, barely anyone pushed past Karazhan according to their data, and those that did, they had the same problem in Sunwell eventually, 0.1% only.

    Then they tried easier modes (10mans) and Hard Modes in WOTLK, and then magically, something worked! Skip all previous content with ICC dungeons, and suddenly everyone was running around in proper gear for the patch, instead of 10 million players stuck doing daily HC dungeons only, while the 1% was in ICC, some started improving, trying ICC 10man, Gear Score appeared because more people were trying to do content out of their knowledge/skill level, which means, it worked.

    And this trend has continued all the way until now, spoiling the players more and more and more, making them not having to never improve to get things.

    And all of the above was requested by the 99%, the better players do not give a care in the world, they will get their items the first month or two and slack it out.

    Now that Blizzard once more listened to the 99% requesting "less gear, more Vanilla feeling, more choices", the 99% is crying again because after years of spoiling them with loot, now they are being told "Just go do the easy content man, you literally asked for these changes, wtf!"
    I understand what you're saying but at the end of the day, they could remove gear... and..people..would...still...play.

    To imply "because it's only been this way and thus it's the only way for it to exist" is fallacious.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Again you're comparing pvp games to pve, a bad idea. You've made the assumption that you could remove gear, and the game would be fun, I completely disagree with that notion. Let's take a look at Gw2 which has no gear grind. That game has struggled for years to maintain player engagement in regards to reward systems, and has a massive issue with bloated currencies because they seemingly have no idea how to entice players to stay without meaningful rewards. It has been tried, and it does not work in MMOs. Not a single successful one has no gear grind..
    To be fair, their struggle is different.

    WoW is lucky -- and every competent developer there has admitted that if WoW started today, it would not grow to what it is now. They simply got lucky on timing.
    So to presume they are doing things right as the only reason they are successful is fallacious.

    GW2 does a lot of things right. To infer they can't do anything right is foolish because WoW has copied a few aspects to GREAT success. If you don't know what those things are, then I suggest you explore a bit more in gaming to open up your experiences.

    My stance still stands: WoW could remove gear and people would still play.

    Look at arena's and BG's as an example. Case in point.

    When content isn't required, people...still...play..it. This is how it is for an insane amount of games. Metrics show people like fun. I know that's a difficult concept but people do. The overwhelming majority of people prefer even battles where gear doesn't matter. This makes wins more valuable and losses more understandable.

    But I do understand that most WoW players, and even commenters here, think that if WoW were to change even one little thing the house of cards would collapse. That's not true. They lost millions of subs in Cata and did fine. They lost a chunk in BfA. Still fine.

    People.Still.Play.

    Want to know something else that'll probably spin your head right on off: People farm legacy content for xmog! I know, ti's a crazy thing! They don't even get real gear or rewards for it! Just coolness stuffs!

    Case.In.Point.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by kiramon View Post
    Because it’s the whole progression of the game; and things getting easier, regardless of what it is, due to your works feels good for people.

    As for the item levels themselves, it wouldn’t be as a big a deal if the scaling wasn’t so whack. A 25% dps increase is way too huge for 200 vs 215.
    your arguement is based solely on some arbitrary number. if the item level was from 200 to 250 and a 25% increase still, but the drops item level also increased (so heroic basically drops lvl 243) then you would have nothing to complain about? it's just a number, it has no meaning on its own.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by ElDoorO View Post
    I understand what you're saying but at the end of the day, they could remove gear... and..people..would...still...play.

    To imply "because it's only been this way and thus it's the only way for it to exist" is fallacious.

    - - - Updated - - -



    To be fair, their struggle is different.

    WoW is lucky -- and every competent developer there has admitted that if WoW started today, it would not grow to what it is now. They simply got lucky on timing.
    So to presume they are doing things right as the only reason they are successful is fallacious.

    GW2 does a lot of things right. To infer they can't do anything right is foolish because WoW has copied a few aspects to GREAT success. If you don't know what those things are, then I suggest you explore a bit more in gaming to open up your experiences.

    My stance still stands: WoW could remove gear and people would still play.

    Look at arena's and BG's as an example. Case in point.

    When content isn't required, people...still...play..it. This is how it is for an insane amount of games. Metrics show people like fun. I know that's a difficult concept but people do. The overwhelming majority of people prefer even battles where gear doesn't matter. This makes wins more valuable and losses more understandable.

    But I do understand that most WoW players, and even commenters here, think that if WoW were to change even one little thing the house of cards would collapse. That's not true. They lost millions of subs in Cata and did fine. They lost a chunk in BfA. Still fine.

    People.Still.Play.

    Want to know something else that'll probably spin your head right on off: People farm legacy content for xmog! I know, ti's a crazy thing! They don't even get real gear or rewards for it! Just coolness stuffs!

    Case.In.Point.
    There are an absurd number of strawman arguments in your comment. And you counter your own arguments multiple times.

    Are you intentionally making it harder to take you seriously?

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Pum View Post
    I do not understand why so many people want higher ilevels just for the sake of it.

    If you are not doing Mythic raiding or at the high end of PvP ladders you literally have zero business having access or even having reasoning to have higher i level gear upwards of 220+. If you are not doing these activities why do you want it? Why do you need it? Hello? Higher ilevel is a means to an end, why has this been forgotten for expansions on end?

    I can't get my head round this mentality.

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