Artifact Power is gone: Anima are garrison/order/war resources redux

[Toybox]

It's arguably the best thing about Shadowlands. Now that Renown is long since done with & Soul Ash has been acquired, I don't have to do anything on WoW besides the group content I play the game for to keep my character(s) relevant.

[baskev]

Okay, again, you think I only mentioned Legion AP and WoD garrison resources in the OP, while I explicitly listed garrison/order hall/war resources, as well as Legion/BfA artifact power (go check). BfA did use artifact power: it's what powered up the Heart, and was often used interchangeably with azerite.

You mean azerite. It was called azerite. not AP. So people would not confuse it with prevoius resource. But my bad i did not read it.

But my point is still valid. Soul ash is not anima, garrison resources etc etc etc. Its spend it on 2 legendary's and your done. Both where much more endless grinds.

As for garrison resources vs anima. A whole different beast they both are. 1 is a resource to build up your garrison, was easy to get and you where done pretty fast and things where "cheap". And it spend on stuff that could help you in raids, like lootboxes from raids, coins for extra rolls etc.
the other ( anima) is a pain to get, is used for a lot of pointless stuff ( stuff that is not needed for progression). so 2 different beast.

But we in fact mostly agree: The SL systems are notably different from the old systems, which is important because a significant part of the griping about SL is the "forced anima grind" which we, again, agree isn't at all forced.

Notably, would say completly. But hey splitting hairs. And yup there is no forced grind.

My first post to you was all about that they can no be compared. what you DID do. So all my other post where pointless. Because you agree with me. They are not the same.

This will be my final post about this sidethread.

good for you

[huth]

You mean azerite. It was called azerite. not AP. So people would not confuse it with prevoius resource. But my bad i did not read it.

Put your Heart back on and check what the bar says. Azerite is just what the collectibles are called, what you get from them is still Artifact Power.

[ippollite]

Anima/Renown Scything:

Pros:
No mandatory power grind. You can be very quickly done (likie faster than ive ever seen it) to hit 200ilvl and get yourself into the power progression end game (built around renown).
Story isnt gated behind rep, but again renown, so its super fast to catch up on story.
Anima grind is 100% optional. You don't have to engage with it at all. If you dont want the cosmetics or mission table upgrades, you really dont have to do them.

Cons:
Power and story is the main reason people do that grindy stuff. Outside of hardcore cosmetics farmers, not many people really care about transmog to the point that they'd grind purely for them.
So the anima rewards need to be absolutely splendiferous to draw you in.
They arent that splendiferous. Its mostly recolors and reskins of your basic gear/mounts that drop in the world.
It also costs so much anima currently.

Super cons based on logic and tradition:
The anima system will gradually increase rewards over the course of the expansion. By late 9.2 and 9.3 (if it happens), anima will be falling from the sky.
Logically then, since the anima stuff isnt going anywhere and its hardly urgent, the game literally incentivises you (unless you are on that constant gear/reset path), to unsub, wait for a year or so, then come back when this cosmetic grind offers a more equitable reward for your time. At worst, it all stays the same with the same terrible anima drop rates, but theres way more stuff to do just in playing catch up; whilst at best, the rewards are upped, the comparative time cost is down, and you get flooded with anima whilst playing catch up in the power progression game.

As a non LFG casual, anima is pretty much thought to be my end game experience. Its grindy, its long, it rewards time invested in the system every day. The more world quests and callings i run, the more anima i have. But why do any of that and pay 15 bucks a month for the privilege when i can just wait for 9.2 to drop, then hoover it all up whilst doing all the normal catch up stuff? Why do the boring, grindy thing now, pay for the pleasure, when i can just do it later and enjoy it more? The cosmetics are all still gonna be there. Im going to be naturally doing other stuff upon my return (catching up on renown, running the new torghast wings/maw content, doing the new island stuff, and doing all the 9.2 content as well). Even if they hold steadfast on not buffing anima drops, i'll still get an absolute tonne of it in a few weeks of playing compared to how much i'd get (and how bored id get) doing it from now until the release of 9.2.

[ohwell]

It is another War Resources.

People are trying to grind this shit out right now, but they just don't get it - we will be swimming in that shit passively two content patches from now. You will be able to buy out all the cosmetics and shit at close to no effort in 9.3.

At least it'll let you keep doing the table once the expansion is over. My lock still hasn't run out of Order Hall resources.

[Glorious Leader]

The big difference is that Anima isn't a grind and for the most part doesn't affect player power.

Which was terrible on their part and basically why this expansion won't have any legs

[WowIsDead64]

One thing that comes up a lot when thinking about what is off about SL is that the AP grind is as bad as ever. I've been guilty thinking that myself. But the AP of Legion/BfA is nearly gone; Anima gives no player power beyond the catchup covenant armor upgrades. It is instead very similar to resources.

I think a lot of people are happy to see the AP grind gone, but initially in SL it felt like it was just replaced by anima, and I think that's because you needed to grind 1k anima every week to keep up with Renown. Now that "catchup" renown is fully in force, ie the two weekly quests are just two of many ways to get renown, we can see that Anima has close to zero effect on player power. It is now an expanded version of resources that gives you base upgrades, but also mounts and cosmetics.

But maybe AP didn't go completely away? There *is* a grindable currency that has a direct effect on player power: Soul Ash. Grinding Torghast for Soul Ash is very comparable to grinding Expeditions for Azerite; an actually necessary chore that you're "forced" to do. Soul Ash is at the very least a much lesser grind than AP, as there's a "soft cap" of 5150 to max out your best legendary, which is about 10 runs on layer 8 for any alts you want to get up to speed.

I think the discussion about the pros and cons of SL can be clarified a lot by recognizing Soul Ash as the new AP, and Anima as the new garrison resources.

I guess, situation is extremely bad in Wow, because Blizzard started to use "endless grind" mechanics. Why? Because they're good for keeping old players, but are extremely bad for new players. In the past Blizzard always relied on new players, starting playing at any moment, even mid xpack. Catch-ups were used to let them start playing current endgame. But now we have "endless grind" mechanics. For example 300k anima at 1200 a day rate would require 7.5 months to grind. I.e. I realized, that if I would want to resub right now, I would never be able to catch-up. And this means, Blizzard don't rely on new players.

[huth]

I guess, situation is extremely bad in Wow, because Blizzard started to use "endless grind" mechanics. Why? Because they're good for keeping old players, but are extremely bad for new players. In the past Blizzard always relied on new players, starting playing at any moment, even mid xpack. Catch-ups were used to let them start playing current endgame. But now we have "endless grind" mechanics. For example 300k anima at 1200 a day rate would require 7.5 months to grind. I.e. I realized, that if I would want to resub right now, I would never be able to catch-up. And this means, Blizzard don't rely on new players.

Your example is a clearly finite grind. And catch-up to what? Getting 40 renown is trivial, you get the stuff thrown at you everywhere. "Catching up" on anima isn't really relevant, since it's all cosmetics.

[baskev]

Put your Heart back on and check what the bar says. Azerite is just what the collectibles are called, what you get from them is still Artifact Power.

i stand corrected. It is indeed called AP.

Still for sake of the conversation he could have made it more clear what he was talking about. he want from expansion to expansion. And there was a difference between how legion artifacts and the necklace worked/resources etc

[paxen]

As a non LFG casual, anima is pretty much thought to be my end game experience. Its grindy, its long, it rewards time invested in the system every day. The more world quests and callings i run, the more anima i have. But why do any of that and pay 15 bucks a month for the privilege when i can just wait for 9.2 to drop, then hoover it all up whilst doing all the normal catch up stuff? Why do the boring, grindy thing now, pay for the pleasure, when i can just do it later and enjoy it more? The cosmetics are all still gonna be there. Im going to be naturally doing other stuff upon my return (catching up on renown, running the new torghast wings/maw content, doing the new island stuff, and doing all the 9.2 content as well). Even if they hold steadfast on not buffing anima drops, i'll still get an absolute tonne of it in a few weeks of playing compared to how much i'd get (and how bored id get) doing it from now until the release of 9.2.

I think you need to view it as raiders/m+'ers view gear: it's something you get/need for the current content, but it will be outdated eventually. Don't raid because you want your character to be permanently more powerful (because your gear will be replaced by catchup gear in a patch or two), but raid because you enjoy it, and gear up because you want to make your character as powerful as you can *right now*

In the same vein, upgrade your covenant because you want to enjoy the benefits now. Get the transmogs that you want to use right now. I'm partly guilty myself of not following this advice, because I'm currently working on getting a sixth character to 60 for the covenant armor, but...I like levelling characters. Deciding "I want one of each armor class for each covenant" gives me a goal to work towards, but...as good as WoW is to fool us into thinking we're doing something "useful", there is nothing in WoW that is really useful at all beyond passing the time. Play because you want to. Get what you want to make your play experience better. Don't play because you want something at a nebulous "later" time, it's not worth it. It's never worth it.

[schwarzkopf]

Which was terrible on their part and basically why this expansion won't have any legs

It is also (according to previous expansions) a fantastic thing and basically why this expansion is awesome.

The real reason this expansion has no legs is that after 4 expansions of reducing grind by popular demand, they released an expansion with not even a hint of a grind.

There is no reason to log in, and no reason to whinge about having to log in.

[Glorious Leader]

It is also (according to previous expansions) a fantastic thing and basically why this expansion is awesome.

The real reason this expansion has no legs is that after 4 expansions of reducing grind by popular demand, they released an expansion with not even a hint of a grind.

There is no reason to log in, and no reason to whinge about having to log in.

Their was never a reason to whinge about logging in. You could have simple not done that which you didn't want to do. Radical I know but some of us liked have a means of progressing outside of the raid.

[sweatshopkids]

it needs to be said again.

It's not so much that it "needs" to be said but rather that you "want" to say it for the sake of something to complain about.

[paxen]

It's not so much that it "needs" to be said but rather that you "want" to say it for the sake of something to complain about.

Yes, I say this because I want to complain about people complaining about anima. You got me.

[Swnem]

Don't think resources were ever given in pips. But, look at that AP was just like that.

It's AP. It's still used to unlock power (weekly anima quest/renown). It's just not infinite power now.

[huth]

Don't think resources were ever given in pips. But, look at that AP was just like that.

It's AP. It's still used to unlock power (weekly anima quest/renown). It's just not infinite power now.

In that example, Renown would be the AP, not Anima. Anima doesn't give you any power, only the act of collecting Anima indirectly helps with it. And if you don't bother with it, you get the power thrown at you a week later anyway. Legion and BfA, you needed less AP if you waited, but you still needed AP. Anima you can completely ignore and still get all of the Renown.

[ippollite]

I think you need to view it as raiders/m+'ers view gear: it's something you get/need for the current content, but it will be outdated eventually. Don't raid because you want your character to be permanently more powerful (because your gear will be replaced by catchup gear in a patch or two), but raid because you enjoy it, and gear up because you want to make your character as powerful as you can *right now*

In the same vein, upgrade your covenant because you want to enjoy the benefits now. Get the transmogs that you want to use right now. I'm partly guilty myself of not following this advice, because I'm currently working on getting a sixth character to 60 for the covenant armor, but...I like levelling characters. Deciding "I want one of each armor class for each covenant" gives me a goal to work towards, but...as good as WoW is to fool us into thinking we're doing something "useful", there is nothing in WoW that is really useful at all beyond passing the time. Play because you want to. Get what you want to make your play experience better. Don't play because you want something at a nebulous "later" time, it's not worth it. It's never worth it.

Sure... but...

Think of your casual player/collector like a geological fossil. And a mythic plus player as a human being. The conception of time are inherently different to each player. I live in a sort of avatar permanence state. Nothing really matters in the moment to moment gaming experience, the game will ebb and flow, power up and power down. The actual minute to minute gameplay, isnt that engaging in itself. The quest for power progression isnt that compelling, either. What matters is just having more pretty outfits to play barbie dress up with and visit the new expansions. Call it... "tourist mode". Your moment to moment player on the other hand wants the things now for the kudos and bragging rights of now. Its more... socially aware.

And there's perhaps an issue here. Because the game seems to be painting itself into a corner. In that focus on the progression game, they've made the gameplay loop for players like myself less interesting and engaging. So the scope of my aspiration is, i suppose, precisely in the doll house features in game and eventually collecting them. And so logically, why grind them and hate my life, when i can ignore them, wait for the next major patch to drop and then collect them while im doing (hopefully) more engaging content? So... 'its never worth it' feels slightly inaccurate. It definitely is worth it. If my sub has a monetary value (i get x amount of content for x dollars per month) and yet that content remains attainable (and even stacks up) the longer i leave my sub to rot, the more "value" im getting upon my return.

Hypothetically and to put it in current terms: I could have held my sub for the 16 weeks (60 bucks) it took for renown to slowly unlock. Or, i could have waited for the renown to unlock, then began my sub. I would unlock renown in about a week. I would have ilvl 200 gear. I would have all the story done.

What would I have honestly missed out on? Because im genuinely struggling to think of something, this has to be an issue, right? I mean, you could say anima, but i did hold the sub until mid jan, and i feel no more compelled to do the anima grind then as now. So its not that.

And if that makes sense. Then what about 9.1? Given we repeat the same timegating... why hold a sub during that period? If you're not racing for world first or cutting edge, i can all but guarantee 9.1 to 9.2 is going to be just as long a wait as 9.0 to 9.1. I could easily come back in October, pay for 1 month. Finish off all my 9.0-9.1 content and easily run out of things i want to do before my next sub date is due.

This is the core issue with scything off renown and anima and hoping timegating will keep those subs. The former is TOO easy to complete and makes up the lion's share of what players want. Whilst the latter is too grindy for some reskins. Timegating only works if you feel a compulsion to stay current. The game now absolutely rewards me for cycling my sub. Whereas before it used to try really hard to make me not do that.

[Swnem]

In that example, Renown would be the AP, not Anima. Anima doesn't give you any power, only the act of collecting Anima indirectly helps with it. And if you don't bother with it, you get the power thrown at you a week later anyway. Legion and BfA, you needed less AP if you waited, but you still needed AP. Anima you can completely ignore and still get all of the Renown.

Renown is nothing. Just something you call to the levels you need to unlock power. The unlocking method is still the anima/AP collection. Sure, we got souls as well now, but that is just a visit to the maw for 5m.

I mean, you can ignore, but you will catch up eventually. Most players that care about power will be catched up. So, we can't really have the pov of someone that doesn't care.

I can also not play the game and it all gets removed in 1.5 years, yeah? Oh look it's gone! Not AP! That is missing the point. We aren't talking about catch up, we are talking about progression. I mean, AP also had catch up and dropped from dungeons.
Literally the only difference is the weekly AP is capped now. We can say the excess does double up as resources. It's 2 in 1. But it's collection is exactly like AP.

[huth]

Renown is nothing. Just something you call to the levels you need to unlock power. The unlocking method is still the anima/AP collection. Sure, we got souls as well now, but that is just a visit to the maw for 5m.

Renown is an actual item you obtain that increases your Covenant rank. The weeklies are just a guaranteed source, they're not the only option. Anima has other uses, whereas AP served exclusively to empower your Artifact. For that matter, your Covenant rank isn't purely power gains, either.

Artifact Power differs from Anima considerably.

We can say the excess does double up as resources. It's 2 in 1. But it's collection is exactly like AP.

Anima isn't at all used to to gain power. Only the process of collecting a measly 1000 per week can be used to improve your standing with your Covenant, which occassionally gives a power boost. You still haven't shown how Anima is like AP at all. This is closer to there being a weekly quest that rewards AP for collecting x Order/War resources.

[Swnem]

Renown is an actual item you obtain that increases your Covenant rank. The weeklies are just a guaranteed source, they're not the only option. Anima has other uses, whereas AP served exclusively to empower your Artifact. For that matter, your Covenant rank isn't purely power gains, either.

Artifact Power differs from Anima considerably.



Anima isn't at all used to to gain power. Only the process of collecting a measly 1000 per week can be used to improve your standing with your Covenant, which occassionally gives a power boost. You still haven't shown how Anima is like AP at all. This is closer to there being a weekly quest that rewards AP for collecting x Order/War resources.

I did say int he first post. It's collection is in the form of pips that comes from all content you complete and it's used to gain power (among other things). It's the same plus a bit extra cause no one cares about the buildings and cosmetics by now.

So, you say differs considerably, i say it's the same plus an extra functionality. "differs greatly" is subjective as it's open to interpretation. Does the same as AP does aka getting collected in the same way and allowing power growth and now constructing buildings and buying cosmetics as well is empirically what it does.

So, you keep your opinion and i will keep mine, cause i don't think there is anything to discuss here.