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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    "Man I sure miss 25M/10M debates." -literally not a single person in the entire fucking universe
    I raided 10-man and didnt participate in those pointless debates at all. I wonder how thats possible.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Mythic is just fine as it is, some guilds are just not made to go far in mythic raiding as there is always a point where the players are just not skilled enough to clear the content while its current. Mythic raiding is too difficult for average players as its not desinged to be done by them, flex mythic would just not work as some fights would be easier and some would be harder so you would still need a certain amount of players so you could do the content as easy as possible.
    Pretty much this. Mythic isn't made for everyone. The OP's guild clearly couldn't cut it and should focus on just being an AOTC guild until they can build themselves up.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Mythic really isn't fine, we've been seeing an ever decreasing population for mythic raiding since Legion and that's primarily because the reward structure is garbage. When the vast majority of your BiS gear is from doing M+, why waste your time doing raids? Blizzard keeps going down the wrong direction time and time again, last expansion was forced personal loot, this expansion was significantly reduced drops(and it's still less even after they buffed it). There's a reason people, even high end, enjoy olden days of raiding, not really in Vanilla and a small extent in BC, but it's because the raids weren't overly complicated and the rewards actually felt rewarding. Some of the hardest encounters ever came out in Wrath and they weren't hard because Blizzard just increased the damage the boss does just because their test team was able to kill the boss. Now the only thing "hard" about most encounters is the overlapping mechanics because they throw an obnoxious amount of them together to elude at difficulty. My case rests with the reality that they do this illusion of difficulty with overlapping mechanics and then punish you when you're DPS is too high and push phases faster, this has happened SEVERAL times since Legion and it's already a thing with multiple mythic encounters in the current tier.
    Raids are not about gear they are about clearing the content simple as that, anything less that 20 players is not really a raid as 20 slot also give most classes the chance at actually having a raid slot, anything less and some classes are going to be made irrelevant completely.

    WoW is an old game, they have to try different boss mechanics just to keep things interesting so boss fights should get harder over the years, the whole point in mythic raids is to kill challenging boss fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    You speak like mythic takes additional skills or something lol.
    It is about wanting to do it. You still press the same buttons, but you need to know tactics very well and be very aware of mechanics. So, in short, you need to be willing to put the effort into it. Skills are the same really.
    In fact, a lot of mythic raiders right now are casual players: log in for the raid, farm couple of things and see you next week.

    Mythic is designed for all players, it is the players who decide if they want to do it or not.
    Mythic raiding does require additional skills that many of the WoW playerbase just dont have, many WoW players are even unable to play the class they have been playing for a decade properly so learning all the tactics required also is impossible for many.

    Casual is just in terms of time and not in terms of skill, the best WoW players can clear content in a quick timeframe and can then do other things with thier time, other guilds spend months trying to get past one raid boss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalam the Venom View Post
    The raid and the bosses is the thing that’s ”A means to an end” so you pretty much have it backwards.

    Played the game since 2006 and that has always been my mentality
    Nope you have it backwards, if your mentality is just about gear then your just going to be dissapointed as once your BiS then you have completed your goal, the true raider goal is getting cutting edge and if the boss has a mount to farm that until the whole raid has it.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-04-12 at 04:02 PM.
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  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by MrKnowItAll View Post
    I raided 10-man and didnt participate in those pointless debates at all. I wonder how thats possible.
    So because you didn't engage in it, that means it didn't happen! Wow! This changes everything!

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyCowBro View Post
    I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

    My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

    We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.
    Generally mythic progression lives and dies with how good the leadership is. In this case though, I would say it's not your fault. Shadowlands is burning a lot of people out and they're losing the drive to keep going. It's going to become increasingly harder to recruit and retain players with each passing week.

    I would recommend to plan for heavy recruitment a week or so before patch 9.1 hits. That's when a lot of people, myself included, are planning to return.

    Best of luck.

  6. #206
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bee76 View Post
    Never join a new formed guild, no matter how "successful" they are right now
    This is really quite dumb advice. If people don't join new guilds then those new guilds will eventually fall apart due to attrition. No new guilds m only leads to consolidating players into existing ones which not only gives them much more power but also runs into the risk that those guilds may fall apart and because we have no new guilds organized content is much harder to run. YOU NEED NEE GUILDS
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Okay, so this guy, almost a decade ago, sees that Blizzard is moving the hardest difficulty raid to a single larger raid size and decides that instead of recruiting new players he'll spend the next 8 fucking years complaining that his voice isn't heard...and that's somehow Blizzard's fault? Get real dude.
    I remember at the start of WoD when the Mythic difficulty first came in. People were acting like this was a suddenly new announcement where no one had the chance to recruit for 20 people. When in reality the announcement that mythic was going to be 20 only happened over a year before Mythic came into existence. Guilds had an entire year to adapt and instead of going "Well we wasted that time." it was "Blizz should have warned us, we had no idea it was going to happen..."

    Like did they miss the WoD announcement and everything that came up afterwards from the blizzcon that was over a year before WoD was released?

  8. #208
    There would be absolutely no difference if the Mythic raid size was reduced to 10 or 15, it would just delay the issue until a later patch when guilds have adjusted to the new standard size. On the contrary, reducing the raid size would significantly limit encounter design and most likely put further emphasis on FOTM stacking, no matter how you feel about it.

    Personally I don't even think 20 spots is enough when we have 36 specs in the game. It's hard to motivate bringing two (or sometimes even one) warriors, demon hunters, rogues, feral druids (list goes on, mostly melee) as it is already. For full disclosure I've been leading a Mythic (and before that Heroic) guild for the vast majority of the past 12 years.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    Wouldn't work because then suddenly its, we only had 15 people, it should be 13-16 instead and down the rabbit hole you go.
    You're ignoring a problem of bench.

    When you're casual guild, it's hard to find people who is both competent and willing to be benched. What happens is: either that person is not competent and is not actually useful to have, benched or not; or that person is good and he'll start to search for another guild as soon as he's benched because the raid allows for only 20 people.

    And without enough good benched players you can't raid reliably. It's as simple as that.

    Flexible mode solves that, because it allows you to have 22-23 raiders. Two can miss the raid, so you have 20-21 raiders. Three can leave the guild, but you still have 17-18 players and that's enough to continue raiding while you're looking for a new recruits.

    I don't even want to notice that being benched is the worst gameplay in the world. You can't even go offline and have sex with your wife as you could be needed any moment.

    If you're losing people and not doing anything about that, that's game over, for sure. But even when you're actually trying to do anything about that, game mechanics complicated that a lot.

  10. #210
    People just join at the start of an expansion and leave early, which means a lot of guilds are probably missing a few people and competition is fierce, death of guilds is inevitable early on.

  11. #211
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyCowBro View Post
    This is a really shitty take. We have been progressing since launch as a new guild, working our way up from normal > heroic > into mythic. Yeah, not ideal but we started with nothing, and some members had little experience. They were bodies, now they are core raiders and do pretty well. We're 8/10M currently, we just need more people to be consistent, but the problem is that as others have said, there's not a whole lot of free agents going around currently.

    - - - Updated - - -



    False, another shitty take from MMO champ /clap
    Waahhh...

    Look, it's ALWAYS hard to recruit at the end of a raid. Always. If that's a 'shitty take' well, too bad. The challenge with fixed size raids is that you need to over recruit so you have people in the wings, you need to keep them around somehow (either by cycling them in or doing alt farms etc). That's part of raiding mythic. If you can't or don't want to do that,

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AkundaMrdal View Post
    Great advice, but guilds usually recruit late in patches because a lot of people stoped playing, especially now because 9.1 will realease god knows when.
    Sure but then you don't wait until you are at the edge of not being able to raid, you see your bench dwindle and start recruiting earlier. If you suddenly go "Oh shit we only have 20 people, we're fucked if we lost anyone else" or even worse, "we don't even have 20, we need to recruit so we can raid" that's poor planning. You always need to keep ahead, so you DO have some cushion.

    Which sounds easy but it IS hard a) late in a patch, b) on Alliance on most servers.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    I remember at the start of WoD when the Mythic difficulty first came in. People were acting like this was a suddenly new announcement where no one had the chance to recruit for 20 people. When in reality the announcement that mythic was going to be 20 only happened over a year before Mythic came into existence. Guilds had an entire year to adapt and instead of going "Well we wasted that time." it was "Blizz should have warned us, we had no idea it was going to happen..."

    Like did they miss the WoD announcement and everything that came up afterwards from the blizzcon that was over a year before WoD was released?
    No, just every 10man guild wanted to recruit up to 20, which is obviously impossible unless the high tier raider population spontaneously doubled overnight.

    Same thing that happened to the OP's guild really. Everyone wants to try and grow, no one wants to say 'lets break up and all join guilds to help them reach 20".
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyCowBro View Post
    I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

    My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

    We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.

    Reduction and change is what lead to your problem. Blizzard changed and the playerbase changed.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    So because you didn't engage in it, that means it didn't happen! Wow! This changes everything!
    No, it did happen but it was pointless. So i think its lousy argument to not bring 10-man back cause you dont want to read the threads were people are debating about it?

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    This is really quite dumb advice. If people don't join new guilds then those new guilds will eventually fall apart due to attrition. No new guilds m only leads to consolidating players into existing ones which not only gives them much more power but also runs into the risk that those guilds may fall apart and because we have no new guilds organized content is much harder to run. YOU NEED NEE GUILDS
    Well most new guilds break after a short time, lasting 1-2 tiers of raiding. So if you want a steady guild thatis not struggling on keeping a mythic rooster up, i suggest not joining a new guild.
    They might be needed, so that the ppl i mentioned, who dont care about guilds at all and just want ppl for their raid -experience until they let them down. I prefer a guild that deserves the name. So from my point ov view, my advice was not dumb

  16. #216
    lol...

    if they make it 10man, the only result will be twice as much "mythic" guilds coming out the woods and the exact same recruiting problem all over again....

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Arainie View Post
    There would be absolutely no difference if the Mythic raid size was reduced to 10 or 15, it would just delay the issue until a later patch when guilds have adjusted to the new standard size. On the contrary, reducing the raid size would significantly limit encounter design and most likely put further emphasis on FOTM stacking, no matter how you feel about it.

    Personally I don't even think 20 spots is enough when we have 36 specs in the game. It's hard to motivate bringing two (or sometimes even one) warriors, demon hunters, rogues, feral druids (list goes on, mostly melee) as it is already. For full disclosure I've been leading a Mythic (and before that Heroic) guild for the vast majority of the past 12 years.
    It would be huge difference because of multiple reasons, first the workload of management and HR is gonna get cut proportionally to raid size. Second social issues, at no singular point in time I had more than 10 people that were (at the same time) close when it comes to skill and I was comfortable raiding with, let alone in same guild. 20? Maybe if we count all the guilds over a course of 8 years. Raiding with 20 people mean raiding with people you don't talk to, don't play with or maybe even don't like at all. Third, nobody should care about fotm stacking, its not a competitive game by design, you are not having same chances simply because of RNG and there has been always cases of one classes being better than others. Again, not a problem.

    And making 10 man doesn't limit encounter design, imagination (or lack of) does.
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  18. #218
    Since people are foolish going to put this out here. Next tier, you will have to recruit people that never got to raid mythic in this tier. It will be on mythic raid groups to not make the player pool even smaller by acting like job recruiters asking for 5+ years experience for a job you will learn on site.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Gratz View Post
    Since people are foolish going to put this out here. Next tier, you will have to recruit people that never got to raid mythic in this tier. It will be on mythic raid groups to not make the player pool even smaller by acting like job recruiters asking for 5+ years experience for a job you will learn on site.
    yeah. I'd love to see the recruiting ad and requirements from the people complaining about the lack of competent players.. "ilvl and achievements you can only have if you already are in a competent guild" ....

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by MrKnowItAll View Post
    No, it did happen but it was pointless. So i think its lousy argument to not bring 10-man back cause you dont want to read the threads were people are debating about it?
    Brother, it's not about the debates happening. It's the fact that it was imbalanced and simply ignoring the fact that it was imbalanced so that you can continue living in an insular world where the problem doesn't exist isn't actually solving a problem.

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