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  1. #201
    People just join at the start of an expansion and leave early, which means a lot of guilds are probably missing a few people and competition is fierce, death of guilds is inevitable early on.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyCowBro View Post
    This is a really shitty take. We have been progressing since launch as a new guild, working our way up from normal > heroic > into mythic. Yeah, not ideal but we started with nothing, and some members had little experience. They were bodies, now they are core raiders and do pretty well. We're 8/10M currently, we just need more people to be consistent, but the problem is that as others have said, there's not a whole lot of free agents going around currently.

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    False, another shitty take from MMO champ /clap
    Waahhh...

    Look, it's ALWAYS hard to recruit at the end of a raid. Always. If that's a 'shitty take' well, too bad. The challenge with fixed size raids is that you need to over recruit so you have people in the wings, you need to keep them around somehow (either by cycling them in or doing alt farms etc). That's part of raiding mythic. If you can't or don't want to do that,

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    Quote Originally Posted by AkundaMrdal View Post
    Great advice, but guilds usually recruit late in patches because a lot of people stoped playing, especially now because 9.1 will realease god knows when.
    Sure but then you don't wait until you are at the edge of not being able to raid, you see your bench dwindle and start recruiting earlier. If you suddenly go "Oh shit we only have 20 people, we're fucked if we lost anyone else" or even worse, "we don't even have 20, we need to recruit so we can raid" that's poor planning. You always need to keep ahead, so you DO have some cushion.

    Which sounds easy but it IS hard a) late in a patch, b) on Alliance on most servers.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    I remember at the start of WoD when the Mythic difficulty first came in. People were acting like this was a suddenly new announcement where no one had the chance to recruit for 20 people. When in reality the announcement that mythic was going to be 20 only happened over a year before Mythic came into existence. Guilds had an entire year to adapt and instead of going "Well we wasted that time." it was "Blizz should have warned us, we had no idea it was going to happen..."

    Like did they miss the WoD announcement and everything that came up afterwards from the blizzcon that was over a year before WoD was released?
    No, just every 10man guild wanted to recruit up to 20, which is obviously impossible unless the high tier raider population spontaneously doubled overnight.

    Same thing that happened to the OP's guild really. Everyone wants to try and grow, no one wants to say 'lets break up and all join guilds to help them reach 20".
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyCowBro View Post
    I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

    My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

    We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.

    Reduction and change is what lead to your problem. Blizzard changed and the playerbase changed.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    So because you didn't engage in it, that means it didn't happen! Wow! This changes everything!
    No, it did happen but it was pointless. So i think its lousy argument to not bring 10-man back cause you dont want to read the threads were people are debating about it?

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    This is really quite dumb advice. If people don't join new guilds then those new guilds will eventually fall apart due to attrition. No new guilds m only leads to consolidating players into existing ones which not only gives them much more power but also runs into the risk that those guilds may fall apart and because we have no new guilds organized content is much harder to run. YOU NEED NEE GUILDS
    Well most new guilds break after a short time, lasting 1-2 tiers of raiding. So if you want a steady guild thatis not struggling on keeping a mythic rooster up, i suggest not joining a new guild.
    They might be needed, so that the ppl i mentioned, who dont care about guilds at all and just want ppl for their raid -experience until they let them down. I prefer a guild that deserves the name. So from my point ov view, my advice was not dumb

  7. #207
    lol...

    if they make it 10man, the only result will be twice as much "mythic" guilds coming out the woods and the exact same recruiting problem all over again....

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Arainie View Post
    There would be absolutely no difference if the Mythic raid size was reduced to 10 or 15, it would just delay the issue until a later patch when guilds have adjusted to the new standard size. On the contrary, reducing the raid size would significantly limit encounter design and most likely put further emphasis on FOTM stacking, no matter how you feel about it.

    Personally I don't even think 20 spots is enough when we have 36 specs in the game. It's hard to motivate bringing two (or sometimes even one) warriors, demon hunters, rogues, feral druids (list goes on, mostly melee) as it is already. For full disclosure I've been leading a Mythic (and before that Heroic) guild for the vast majority of the past 12 years.
    It would be huge difference because of multiple reasons, first the workload of management and HR is gonna get cut proportionally to raid size. Second social issues, at no singular point in time I had more than 10 people that were (at the same time) close when it comes to skill and I was comfortable raiding with, let alone in same guild. 20? Maybe if we count all the guilds over a course of 8 years. Raiding with 20 people mean raiding with people you don't talk to, don't play with or maybe even don't like at all. Third, nobody should care about fotm stacking, its not a competitive game by design, you are not having same chances simply because of RNG and there has been always cases of one classes being better than others. Again, not a problem.

    And making 10 man doesn't limit encounter design, imagination (or lack of) does.
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  9. #209
    Since people are foolish going to put this out here. Next tier, you will have to recruit people that never got to raid mythic in this tier. It will be on mythic raid groups to not make the player pool even smaller by acting like job recruiters asking for 5+ years experience for a job you will learn on site.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Gratz View Post
    Since people are foolish going to put this out here. Next tier, you will have to recruit people that never got to raid mythic in this tier. It will be on mythic raid groups to not make the player pool even smaller by acting like job recruiters asking for 5+ years experience for a job you will learn on site.
    yeah. I'd love to see the recruiting ad and requirements from the people complaining about the lack of competent players.. "ilvl and achievements you can only have if you already are in a competent guild" ....

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by MrKnowItAll View Post
    No, it did happen but it was pointless. So i think its lousy argument to not bring 10-man back cause you dont want to read the threads were people are debating about it?
    Brother, it's not about the debates happening. It's the fact that it was imbalanced and simply ignoring the fact that it was imbalanced so that you can continue living in an insular world where the problem doesn't exist isn't actually solving a problem.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    It would be huge difference because of multiple reasons, first the workload of management and HR is gonna get cut proportionally to raid size. Second social issues, at no singular point in time I had more than 10 people that were (at the same time) close when it comes to skill and I was comfortable raiding with, let alone in same guild. 20? Maybe if we count all the guilds over a course of 8 years. Raiding with 20 people mean raiding with people you don't talk to, don't play with or maybe even don't like at all. Third, nobody should care about fotm stacking, its not a competitive game by design, you are not having same chances simply because of RNG and there has been always cases of one classes being better than others. Again, not a problem.

    And making 10 man doesn't limit encounter design, imagination (or lack of) does.
    10 man size is not raiding its just too small and it does limit encounter design as you have to do it for less members, if you want to 10 man raid you have heroic, mythic should always remain at min 20 people as thats a suitable size to design fights around, it also allows for just about every class to have a raid spot.

    If you cant recruit 20 members to raid with you dont deserve to raid mythic.
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  13. #213
    To be fair,even during "good" recruitment periods,plenty of guilds still die from recruitment issues. This isn't not a good recruitment period either,so with a lack of luck,your guild could end up being doomed I'm afraid.

    In the meantime the best you can do is try to see if there's anything wrong or off with your recruitment policies. Are you asking too much? Are you not recruiting through the right methods? If you do get applicants,how harsh are you when filtering them?
    Of course,every guild wants to only get the best players,but sometimes you've gotta lower your expectations to allow the guild to survive

  14. #214
    The solution is to make the game not trash, so people are actually motivated to play it. Recruitment always sucks when the game sucks, and shadowlands crashed hard after the first few months. People who lose their guild or are looking to leave arent going to take the effort to join another guild when the game just isnt worth it, they're just going to skip the rest of the tier and take a break or quit the game altogether. Hell even preach is struggling to find the motivation to look for a new guild, and making wow content is literally his livelihood.

    Mythic raiding is a particularly hard sell right now, because it's literally one of the most unrewarding pieces of content available for how much effort is required. Forced personal loot + only 4 pieces per boss(up from a hilariously bad 3 pieces per boss) = a whole lot of duplicate, useless pieces like necks or cloaks. That and Nathria is a pretty "Meh" raid with some seriously annoying to progress on bosses like council, artificer and stone legion generals. AND it's late in the tier, so most guilds at this point are extending lockouts to progress on the last 2-3 bosses, which is generally the worst time to apply to a guild since applicants rarely get brought to progression unless the guild is super desperate.

  15. #215
    This.

    Hate to say it but SL sucks, really wanted it to be good but its just more of the same since BFA, sure some small things are better but everything is so time gated, and M+ is so bad, its so Meta heavy for high keys and on top of that you can just get 226 gear from your vault each week, and with 3 options its the best way to go since loot never drops from raids.

    The people you need to recruit for Mythic raiding are the people that have quit or are quitting the game imo and some are just like why would i mythic raid? to get CE? not worth

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Goat7 View Post
    The people you need to recruit for Mythic raiding are the people that have quit or are quitting the game imo and some are just like why would i mythic raid? to get CE? not worth
    A game like WoW depends on maintaining the illusion that the investment of time is actually worth it. Once that illusion shatters the game is dead to that player.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    A game like WoW depends on maintaining the illusion that the investment of time is actually worth it. Once that illusion shatters the game is dead to that player.
    What a vapid, pointless thing to say.

    That's like saying "people work jobs to get paid."

  18. #218
    Warchief Freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    A game like WoW depends on maintaining the illusion that the investment of time is actually worth it. Once that illusion shatters the game is dead to that player.
    I would say that this is very accurate, and was certainly true for me. The problem it seems to me with Shadowlands is, the illusion for the playerbase as a whole is at its weakest when after BFA it needed to be as strong as it was for me in WotLK or MoP.
    Last edited by Freedom; 2021-04-12 at 07:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Ok, I give up. This is pointless.
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  19. #219
    Flex mythic is probably a bad idea, but if they did ever do it IMO it should be 19-21 flex.

    And damage/hp scaling only.

    No change in frequency or amount of mechanics.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Switching to 10 man doesn't fix the problem. It just shift the numbers. While guilds will still have problem recruiting because they are a few short. Short term it also destroy some guilds because now they have to sit people they didn't have to before etc etc.

    For every size there will be guilds having issues filling the spots. I see no reason since our will help some and hurt some. I think 20 man is a good size for the amount of classes we have. Even if that means we have issues filling it up, but we are soon there.

    Honestly for us it has been real life events causing more issues with recruiting and reliability than the size of the raid.
    Word. Whenever raid size is 10 or 40 people, recruiting should always be a priority for guilds and will always be a problem if ignored. You're not any less SOL if your 14 DPS and 2 tanks are now 12 and 1 than if your 6 DPS and 2 tanks are now 4 and 1. That's not how it works. I do think 15 man would have been an easier size to achieve at first during the transition from Mists to WoD, but that ship has sailed 4 expansions ago.

    Plus, 10 man would mean a whole new level of metaslavery. If you can only have 6 (or 5) DPS in a raid, you'd better believe non-meta classes are getting dunked on, just like they do in higher M+ keys.

    The first thing that would make recruitment easier is flexible tech... which is just not applicable to Mythic for a variety of good reasons. The second thing would be far earlier cross-server Mythic, and IMO that's the preferable solution. Screw the Hall of Fame and endlessly waiting on the Alliance to kill the boss already, just make Mythic cross-server one or two lockout after World First, which is about the time where a good number of guilds get their AOTC and look to push into Mythic.
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