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  1. #401
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logwyn View Post
    The point is that the small percentage of the player base that does mythic does not make it worth the time and resources invested into the production of that content. That time and effort would be better served doing something else.
    Yes, let's take one thing WoW is doing great and are famous for and gut it, galaxy brain.

    It is THE one thing that brings hundreds of thousands viewers to WoW every 6 give or take months. Not the silly MDI where mirrored teams steamroll trivial shit or WoW's lolPvP.

    It's one of the great differentiators between WoW and the rest of MMOs who simply don't have anything up to par.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyCowBro View Post
    I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

    My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

    We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.

    The only real solution is to scrap the content completely. Too few players get to enjoy it, the grind to get there is too intense, and the environment gets too toxic. The continuous never-ending chase for better gear that gives higher numbers and in turn an illusion of skill is what is destroying the game, and it hits especially hard when the pool of players with good enough gear dries out and yet another guild dissolves.

    WotLK hit a nice balance of how hard the hardest content should be and the time and effort it takes to get there. Classic is also a good example that easy raids has great staying power. Easy = lighter mood => enjoyable and fun. We have lost a few players since 2019, but our guild still has 2 full Naxx raids going each week that's clearing in 2-3 hours, largely because the environment is non-toxic.

  3. #403
    A lot of people have left since the launch, so it's normal. If I was in charge I would prefer larger raids tbh.
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  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by marcusblood View Post
    Dude, not everyone is meant to be a mythic CE guild. Just because you (not you but in general) can't make it happen doesn't mean the system is necessarily broken. We've had 20 man mythic since November 2014. Our raid structures have not changed in nearly 7 years.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Game.
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    - - - Updated - - -



    Dude, the reason why 10s were more popular is because they were easy as shit to get together. I'm not a great player, but I Raid Led a 10 man group through 5/14H SoO. It was weaker content for weaker, lazier players.
    I generally find these discussions about what content is and isn't better for what percentage of the population to be interesting. There has also been a ton of toxic slippery slope and straw man arguing in here that is essentially worthless.

    I did, however, feel the need to respond to this particular traditionalist fallacy. Just because something has been a certain way for a long time doesn't at all mean it is wise for it to continue. I can't believe I have to say this in the current year. I'm not going to insult your intelligence further with the myriad examples of how "it's been this way since X, so it should stay this way" isn't useful.

    10 mans were indeed popular because more people got to try content they wouldn't otherwise be able to try. The idea that it was weaker and for (lazy) players is pretty interesting - you yourself just said you only made it to 5/14H. Easier front door, but apparently it wasn't so weak that you could make the 14/14H. Between Wrath and MoP, there were examples of certain bosses being harder on 10 man and other bosses being easier. Nothing about the difficulty, save for that it is objectively easier to gather 10 people vs 20, guaranteed it was going to be easier to actually *execute* boss kills. It varied fight-to-fight and tier-to-tier. Sometimes the tuning was off on the 10 man, so things would hit disproportionately hard. Sometimes fights with high personal responsibility mechanics were harder in 10 man, especially fatal ones, people making mistakes was more punishing. In other cases, the opposite was true.

    To summarize, "we should keep it the way it's been since X even though things have changed significantly since X" isn't a real argument in and of itself. Surely you can come up with other reasons that it should be this way other than "well that's how it's been, Cleetus, so that's how it should stay."

    It doesn't sound like the OP is asking for raiding to be easier. The OP is asking for a return to something we've already done before that was popular and that lowered the *barrier to entry* for raiding, not the actual difficulty level of the content. And nothing about 10 man guaranteed it was easier to do anything other than get the people together to try it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    The only real solution is to scrap the content completely. Too few players get to enjoy it, the grind to get there is too intense, and the environment gets too toxic. The continuous never-ending chase for better gear that gives higher numbers and in turn an illusion of skill is what is destroying the game, and it hits especially hard when the pool of players with good enough gear dries out and yet another guild dissolves.

    WotLK hit a nice balance of how hard the hardest content should be and the time and effort it takes to get there. Classic is also a good example that easy raids has great staying power. Easy = lighter mood => enjoyable and fun. We have lost a few players since 2019, but our guild still has 2 full Naxx raids going each week that's clearing in 2-3 hours, largely because the environment is non-toxic.

    I do think, though, that solutions like this aren't really great. Like it or not, there are some people who enjoy the content as is. They enjoy the intensity, they enjoy the grind, and so on. It is as much their game as it is yours. And, with the world first race, MDI, and AWC, those things are - and have been - part of the core culture of the game. If that doesn't resonate with you, that's okay. But why advocate for stripping that stuff categorically from the people who want it and enjoy it? Surely there are solutions that don't require it to be "my way or the highway." "Take everything from them or else."

    If you don't want to participate in the gear treadmill of mythic raiding, then don't. I have been in US top 50 guilds. I have been in US 800 guilds. I am currently just pvping. As I've gotten older - and more washed up - I can't participate in the time sink and grind that mythic raiding is anymore. Not at the "higher levels" certainly. So, I don't do it. You can make that choice, too. The easier difficulties are already there for the people who want that.

    To be clear, I think this is a separate discussion from 10man v 20man, because 10s are not inherently easier aside from the HR component of recruitment and management.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Fendrith View Post
    I generally find these discussions about what content is and isn't better for what percentage of the population to be interesting. There has also been a ton of toxic slippery slope and straw man arguing in here that is essentially worthless.

    I did, however, feel the need to respond to this particular traditionalist fallacy. Just because something has been a certain way for a long time doesn't at all mean it is wise for it to continue. I can't believe I have to say this in the current year. I'm not going to insult your intelligence further with the myriad examples of how "it's been this way since X, so it should stay this way" isn't useful.

    10 mans were indeed popular because more people got to try content they wouldn't otherwise be able to try. The idea that it was weaker and for (lazy) players is pretty interesting - you yourself just said you only made it to 5/14H. Easier front door, but apparently it wasn't so weak that you could make the 14/14H. Between Wrath and MoP, there were examples of certain bosses being harder on 10 man and other bosses being easier. Nothing about the difficulty, save for that it is objectively easier to gather 10 people vs 20, guaranteed it was going to be easier to actually *execute* boss kills. It varied fight-to-fight and tier-to-tier. Sometimes the tuning was off on the 10 man, so things would hit disproportionately hard. Sometimes fights with high personal responsibility mechanics were harder in 10 man, especially fatal ones, people making mistakes was more punishing. In other cases, the opposite was true.

    To summarize, "we should keep it the way it's been since X even though things have changed significantly since X" isn't a real argument in and of itself. Surely you can come up with other reasons that it should be this way other than "well that's how it's been, Cleetus, so that's how it should stay."

    It doesn't sound like the OP is asking for raiding to be easier. The OP is asking for a return to something we've already done before that was popular and that lowered the *barrier to entry* for raiding, not the actual difficulty level of the content. And nothing about 10 man guaranteed it was easier to do anything other than get the people together to try it.

    - - - Updated - - -




    I do think, though, that solutions like this aren't really great. Like it or not, there are some people who enjoy the content as is. They enjoy the intensity, they enjoy the grind, and so on. It is as much their game as it is yours. And, with the world first race, MDI, and AWC, those things are - and have been - part of the core culture of the game. If that doesn't resonate with you, that's okay. But why advocate for stripping that stuff categorically from the people who want it and enjoy it? Surely there are solutions that don't require it to be "my way or the highway." "Take everything from them or else."

    If you don't want to participate in the gear treadmill of mythic raiding, then don't. I have been in US top 50 guilds. I have been in US 800 guilds. I am currently just pvping. As I've gotten older - and more washed up - I can't participate in the time sink and grind that mythic raiding is anymore. Not at the "higher levels" certainly. So, I don't do it. You can make that choice, too. The easier difficulties are already there for the people who want that.

    To be clear, I think this is a separate discussion from 10man v 20man, because 10s are not inherently easier aside from the HR component of recruitment and management.
    The crux of the complaints stem from the fact that people can't get 20 people together to raid top end content. My argument is that since raid structures have not changed, either you conform to the standard or find other content to do. Making the system conform to players who just can't get through the front door as you say, for the top end content, is something that was done before and failed. 10 man Heroic raiding from Cata through MoP was a failure. It casualized hardcore raiding and make it too easy. And FYI, i went 12/14H SoO in 25 man. I stepped up my game and wanted to do the real raiding.

    It's a shame that there are people dreaming of CE content and just can't get CE for whatever reason. But CE has to be something that only the dedicated few can achieve. Leading a guild to CE should be seen as the greatest achievement in game IMO. If that standard has been set at 20 for this long, and people still can't get through it, dumming the content down isn't going to make things better. I've heard argument from WoW purists that the dumming down of the game was the downfall overall. Dumming down the hardest content is just not the right thing to do.

    I think people just need to realize that they just are not cut out for CE, or just up their skill and join a guild that can sustain a roster. Remember, all CE guilds need people at some point, you just have to make yourself a better candidate to join one. And for RLers who can't get enough people to do CE, it's not entirely your fault. It's fucking hard raid leading CE and recruitment a lot of times is out of your hands. Mostly due to more established guilds getting first dibs on talent.

  6. #406
    If they change raiding format to any other suggested methods, we will get the same response after while. Even flex mode mythic would become a cookie cutter setup for most guilds and they wouldnt function properly missing certain key players and then recruiting to fill the spot would lead to the same complaints.

    Personally though, id be happier with scrapping Mythic raiding for a similar to Wrath setup with just Heroic and Normal but flex. However, bring back zone buffs inside the raid which allows the heroic to be very tightly tuned to begin with and after 4-5 weeks the buff starts progressively nerfing the raid to make it easier weekly for lesser skiller/committed teams to push through. (or even just adding this to current mythic raids). A simply 2-5% buff to HP, heals/absorbs and damage per week to a maximum of something like 20% would do fine. The truly competitive will be done before the buff starts up and more have access.
    Further make older raids have a purpose to do them even when well overgeared. Make them drop a decent number of potions or gold, or augment runes/crafting mats etc,
    and/or reduce the gear disparity between tiers (such as Sire gear on normal equal to first bosses gear on heroic as we had in heroic Naxx etc). Right now there is little reason to redo older content which reduces the groups possible, which in turn reduces the pool for recruitment.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by marcusblood View Post
    It casualized hardcore raiding and make it too easy. And FYI, i went 12/14H SoO in 25 man. I stepped up my game and wanted to do the real raiding.

    It's a shame that there are people dreaming of CE content and just can't get CE for whatever reason. But CE has to be something that only the dedicated few can achieve. Leading a guild to CE should be seen as the greatest achievement in game IMO. If that standard has been set at 20 for this long, and people still can't get through it, dumming the content down isn't going to make things better. I've heard argument from WoW purists that the dumming down of the game was the downfall overall. Dumming down the hardest content is just not the right thing to do.
    I am repeating myself.

    You think 20 -> 10 man is "dumbing it down" and "making it easier." I have highlighted your own language showing where I'm pulling that from.

    You're even saying in the past 10 mans were easier. Where is your evidence for this assertion? Even *at the time* that 10 and 25 were side by side, which one was more difficult was a hotly debated topic. I can link you threads upon threads from both this forum and wow forums of people at the top level in both discussing it. Yet you seem to think it's cut and dry that 10 man is easier and "dumbing it down." Why?

    Even in your own personal experience, you were able to go 12/14 H in 25 man, but only 5/14H in 10 man. Yet again, you're telling me that you went to do the "real" raiding, even though you found more success in the "real" raiding.

    I didn't raid in MoP, so I won't debate that particular raid. I wasn't there. The idea that 25 man was *always* harder than 10 man in wrath and cata is not correct. That's not just my personal experience. The discussions of people debating it with no clear winner in terms of difficulty are there.

    The only thing I'm saying here is that 25 -> 10m is definitely not "dumbing it down." It's dumbing down the difficulty of recruiting. But that isn't really the raid boss.

    There are people who are not cut out for CE by skill. And there are people who just have a hard time accepting that. That is a completely separate issue that you are conflating with the discussion at hand.

    It's fucking hard raid leading CE and recruitment a lot of times is out of your hands. Mostly due to more established guilds getting first dibs on talent.
    The last bolded part there is like the exact point of the discussion. The OP's point was that going back to 10m solves this. And again, there were examples of bosses - and even majority of tiers - in which 10m was more difficult than 25.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Fendrith View Post
    I am repeating myself.

    You think 20 -> 10 man is "dumbing it down" and "making it easier." I have highlighted your own language showing where I'm pulling that from.

    You're even saying in the past 10 mans were easier. Where is your evidence for this assertion? Even *at the time* that 10 and 25 were side by side, which one was more difficult was a hotly debated topic. I can link you threads upon threads from both this forum and wow forums of people at the top level in both discussing it. Yet you seem to think it's cut and dry that 10 man is easier and "dumbing it down." Why?

    Even in your own personal experience, you were able to go 12/14 H in 25 man, but only 5/14H in 10 man. Yet again, you're telling me that you went to do the "real" raiding, even though you found more success in the "real" raiding.

    I didn't raid in MoP, so I won't debate that particular raid. I wasn't there. The idea that 25 man was *always* harder than 10 man in wrath and cata is not correct. That's not just my personal experience. The discussions of people debating it with no clear winner in terms of difficulty are there.

    The only thing I'm saying here is that 25 -> 10m is definitely not "dumbing it down." It's dumbing down the difficulty of recruiting. But that isn't really the raid boss.

    There are people who are not cut out for CE by skill. And there are people who just have a hard time accepting that. That is a completely separate issue that you are conflating with the discussion at hand.



    The last bolded part there is like the exact point of the discussion. The OP's point was that going back to 10m solves this. And again, there were examples of bosses - and even majority of tiers - in which 10m was more difficult than 25.
    could you give an example of a boss whose mechanical design benefited a larger group?

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Fendrith View Post


    The last bolded part there is like the exact point of the discussion. The OP's point was that going back to 10m solves this. And again, there were examples of bosses - and even majority of tiers - in which 10m was more difficult than 25.
    Here's a simple analogy that equates to what the OP's point and the point many others make.

    "We can't get 20 people, so make it less people so we can play too!!!!"

    But my point is simple: People just can't make it CE. They've had long enough to adjust, and it's pretty clear that it's not for a lot of guilds.

    That's like asking each sports team to increase their roster size to accommodate those who couldn't make the cut.

    I'm not going to sit here and go boss by boss and show you how 25 mans are almost always harder than 10s (with a few exceptions). But as you can see from this thread, and others, just getting 25 people, let alone 20, to not only show up but to play CE caliber, is monumentally harder. Hence why all the threads here complain about the same stuff.

    In fact, the only fight I can recall off the top of my head that was easier on 25 man than 10 was Immerseus.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by marcusblood View Post
    Here's a simple analogy that equates to what the OP's point and the point many others make.

    "We can't get 20 people, so make it less people so we can play too!!!!"

    But my point is simple: People just can't make it CE. They've had long enough to adjust, and it's pretty clear that it's not for a lot of guilds.

    That's like asking each sports team to increase their roster size to accommodate those who couldn't make the cut.

    I'm not going to sit here and go boss by boss and show you how 25 mans are almost always harder than 10s (with a few exceptions). But as you can see from this thread, and others, just getting 25 people, let alone 20, to not only show up but to play CE caliber, is monumentally harder. Hence why all the threads here complain about the same stuff.

    In fact, the only fight I can recall off the top of my head that was easier on 25 man than 10 was Immerseus.
    You still are unable to grasp a simple concept that getting 20 people is not hard. Are you still following? Getting 20 people is NOT hard.
    Getting CE is not hard either if you are willing to sacrifice FUN. OR if you are willing to sacrifice your sanity by playing with douchebags.

    Your point is irrelevant, because that is not the problem. Problem is literally everything else. Busywork, HR, recruitment, playing with douchebags, orgranization.

    And as someone who did entire SoO 10H and 25H i would say (almost) every fight was harder on 10 man.
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  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Fendrith View Post
    I generally find these discussions about what content is and isn't better for what percentage of the population to be interesting. There has also been a ton of toxic slippery slope and straw man arguing in here that is essentially worthless.

    I did, however, feel the need to respond to this particular traditionalist fallacy. Just because something has been a certain way for a long time doesn't at all mean it is wise for it to continue. I can't believe I have to say this in the current year. I'm not going to insult your intelligence further with the myriad examples of how "it's been this way since X, so it should stay this way" isn't useful.

    10 mans were indeed popular because more people got to try content they wouldn't otherwise be able to try. The idea that it was weaker and for (lazy) players is pretty interesting - you yourself just said you only made it to 5/14H. Easier front door, but apparently it wasn't so weak that you could make the 14/14H. Between Wrath and MoP, there were examples of certain bosses being harder on 10 man and other bosses being easier. Nothing about the difficulty, save for that it is objectively easier to gather 10 people vs 20, guaranteed it was going to be easier to actually *execute* boss kills. It varied fight-to-fight and tier-to-tier. Sometimes the tuning was off on the 10 man, so things would hit disproportionately hard. Sometimes fights with high personal responsibility mechanics were harder in 10 man, especially fatal ones, people making mistakes was more punishing. In other cases, the opposite was true.

    To summarize, "we should keep it the way it's been since X even though things have changed significantly since X" isn't a real argument in and of itself. Surely you can come up with other reasons that it should be this way other than "well that's how it's been, Cleetus, so that's how it should stay."

    It doesn't sound like the OP is asking for raiding to be easier. The OP is asking for a return to something we've already done before that was popular and that lowered the *barrier to entry* for raiding, not the actual difficulty level of the content. And nothing about 10 man guaranteed it was easier to do anything other than get the people together to try it.

    - - - Updated - - -




    I do think, though, that solutions like this aren't really great. Like it or not, there are some people who enjoy the content as is. They enjoy the intensity, they enjoy the grind, and so on. It is as much their game as it is yours. And, with the world first race, MDI, and AWC, those things are - and have been - part of the core culture of the game. If that doesn't resonate with you, that's okay. But why advocate for stripping that stuff categorically from the people who want it and enjoy it? Surely there are solutions that don't require it to be "my way or the highway." "Take everything from them or else."

    If you don't want to participate in the gear treadmill of mythic raiding, then don't. I have been in US top 50 guilds. I have been in US 800 guilds. I am currently just pvping. As I've gotten older - and more washed up - I can't participate in the time sink and grind that mythic raiding is anymore. Not at the "higher levels" certainly. So, I don't do it. You can make that choice, too. The easier difficulties are already there for the people who want that.

    To be clear, I think this is a separate discussion from 10man v 20man, because 10s are not inherently easier aside from the HR component of recruitment and management.
    I don't disagree with this at its core, but the gear chase trickles down and affects you whether you like it or not. Any and all group content you want to do with randoms suddenly require higher level of gear than what's reasonable simply because that makes the content easier. When M0 requires ilvl 200 to get into, it's not an option to just opt out. And it's not necessarily that the leader demands 200, but when 4+ people with 200+ queue, you can't compete and won't be picked.

    This in turn is part of what makes the community so toxic, that people have to be on edge all the time because a simple mistake could be enough to fail and degrade the +9 key, and everyone in that group has wasted that time they spent trying to get get their upgrades for the week to not fall behind on gear.

    Want to do some casual BG? Not only are you getting pulverized by your opponent, but you're pulling your whole team down as well. Not fun either.

    The gear treadmill is an absolute requirement to enjoy anything besides collecting and pet battles, and even some mounts and pets are gated behind gear.

    I don't mind there being progression, but the gap is too wide party because there's too many steps that each has to feel rewarding (by design).

    You could easily argue that WoW isn't the game for me anymore, and you'd be completely right. But I want it to be for me again, and I hate seeing the downward spiral it is seemingly stuck in.
    Last edited by Tronski; 2021-05-01 at 10:31 AM.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    I don't disagree with this at its core, but the gear chase trickles down and affects you whether you like it or not. Any and all group content you want to do with randoms suddenly require higher level of gear than what's reasonable simply because that makes the content easier. When M0 requires ilvl 200 to get into, it's not an option to just opt out. And it's not necessarily that the leader demands 200, but when 4+ people with 200+ queue, you can't compete and won't be picked.

    This in turn is part of what makes the community so toxic, that people have to be on edge all the time because a simple mistake could be enough to fail and degrade the +9 key, and everyone in that group has wasted that time they spent trying to get get their upgrades for the week to not fall behind on gear.

    Want to do some casual BG? Not only are you getting pulverized by your opponent, but you're pulling your whole team down as well. Not fun either.

    The gear treadmill is an absolute requirement to enjoy anything besides collecting and pet battles, and even some mounts and pets are gated behind gear.

    I don't mind there being progression, but the gap is too wide party because there's too many steps that each has to feel rewarding (by design).

    You could easily argue that WoW isn't the game for me anymore, and you'd be completely right. But I want it to be for me again, and I hate seeing the downward spiral it is seemingly stuck in.
    I d like you to help me understand your concern. Its not the possibility of failing and not earning any reward that is the problem, with random people and so on, its how much gear progress lowers challenge so getting the gear itself it becomes a mad chase?

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You still are unable to grasp a simple concept that getting 20 people is not hard. Are you still following? Getting 20 people is NOT hard.
    Getting CE is not hard either if you are willing to sacrifice FUN. OR if you are willing to sacrifice your sanity by playing with douchebags.

    Your point is irrelevant, because that is not the problem. Problem is literally everything else. Busywork, HR, recruitment, playing with douchebags, orgranization.

    And as someone who did entire SoO 10H and 25H i would say (almost) every fight was harder on 10 man.
    Whether its 10 man or 25 man, you're gunna have busywork, HR, douchebags, etc. Although its much harder with 25/20 people, it looks as if 10 man guilds in Cata/MoP were toxic cliques from 25 mans. The only reason why they were successful is because you only needed to fill 1-2 holes it was easier. It's also easier to deal with organizing a 10 man. I'm repeating myself.

    It's pretty clear that there's nothing that can convince the former 10m people. So I'll stop trying.

  14. #414
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    Raider.io ist the Problem, not the anser. its the same with ilvl xxx, achievement and so on. Fuck this shit

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Rehija View Post
    Raider.io ist the Problem, not the anser. its the same with ilvl xxx, achievement and so on. Fuck this shit
    Raider.io is mere a symptom.
    As you say yourself, it used to be gearscore (later turned into ilvl), and achievements.

    The problem is the players. if I'm going to spend my free time doing activities with others I want some way of knowing those random people are capable of doing the content.
    Nothing you do will stop players from trying to judge if other players are good enough to do the content with them.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  16. #416
    Honestly if guilds relied less on poaching "talent" and started teaching what they can get, then perhaps this game might have been in better shape.

    People always rag on individuals being entitled, but by god social group entitlement is orders of magnitude worse. You (plural) don't deserve to be offered your choice of perfectly suited talent, you deserve to take what is willing to join you and nothing more.

    Don't whine about being given iron ore, refine it and forge that sword you want yourself.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  17. #417
    killed my guild too. i doubt blizzard will do anything because they're hellbent on keeping mythic locked at 20 players for the sake of balance and the integrity of the world first races.

    i think a lot of guilds find heroic too easy but mythic too inaccessible/difficult. after these guilds clear heroic in a month or two and have the content on farm... what are they supposed to do? many of them are just quitting the game. the current system is not working.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Honestly if guilds relied less on poaching "talent" and started teaching what they can get, then perhaps this game might have been in better shape.

    People always rag on individuals being entitled, but by god social group entitlement is orders of magnitude worse. You (plural) don't deserve to be offered your choice of perfectly suited talent, you deserve to take what is willing to join you and nothing more.

    Don't whine about being given iron ore, refine it and forge that sword you want yourself.
    Just wanted to post this. this. this. When I led raiding guilds in other MMOs, where the communities weren't nearly as big as WoW, I simply recruited people who were i) competent and ii) were good fits for the guild. I worked with people, taught them, and they improved. Other guilds were doing the same thing, and over time the number of guilds completing the content exploded, until the game started to decline (which was almost always because budgets were reduced and so content production went to unacceptable levels). So working with, teaching people, it absolutely works, and it's frustrating that so many guilds in WoW just don't want to do it.

  19. #419
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    Just wanted to post this. this. this. When I led raiding guilds in other MMOs, where the communities weren't nearly as big as WoW, I simply recruited people who were i) competent and ii) were good fits for the guild. I worked with people, taught them, and they improved. Other guilds were doing the same thing, and over time the number of guilds completing the content exploded, until the game started to decline (which was almost always because budgets were reduced and so content production went to unacceptable levels). So working with, teaching people, it absolutely works, and it's frustrating that so many guilds in WoW just don't want to do it.
    I couldn't agree more. I firmly believe that the game was in a better state when people were willing to go out of their way to bring people in and show them the ropes. It creates a more inclusive community at all levels, and is what has been missing from the game for a fair amount of people, I suspect.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    Just wanted to post this. this. this. When I led raiding guilds in other MMOs, where the communities weren't nearly as big as WoW, I simply recruited people who were i) competent and ii) were good fits for the guild. I worked with people, taught them, and they improved. Other guilds were doing the same thing, and over time the number of guilds completing the content exploded, until the game started to decline (which was almost always because budgets were reduced and so content production went to unacceptable levels). So working with, teaching people, it absolutely works, and it's frustrating that so many guilds in WoW just don't want to do it.
    Same experience here, happy to help put ut to words.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

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