Enough Cinematics already!

[KrayZ33]

It seems you haven’t read much of this post before commenting then because theres literally one in the OP. Go play outriders.

The short cutscene in outriders are mostly loading screens. The alternative would've been a black screen, according to them - at least, which is just as bad.
The longer ones are further in between than you make it sound. A lot early, less later.

But in the end, it's a pretty shitty game in that regard and not a "trend".

Your point is this

And that poor storytelling is because most of the story is interrupting your gameplay, which is basically my entire point.

And that has no connection to how often cinematics are used, but to how they are used, when and why. As seen in MGS:PP for example.
If the cutscenes are done poorly, at the wrong situation or just flat out unnecessary, then that's just a bad game.
Storytelling itself can still be done mostly (even exclusively) in cutscenes and it doesn't make the game any worse whatsoever.

[Kallisto]

And lets not even talk about those damn cutscenes before you fight the last few bosses in FF10

FUCK YUNALESCA

Seriously I think I died 30 times to her 1st playthrough and the whole not being able to skip the scenes on her was just agh (and being in the PAL region I was so over it when I beat her I forgot to pick up the sigil for Tidus weapon before spawning Dark Bahamut.)

[shadowroguetbc]

The short cutscene in outriders are mostly loading screens. The alternative would've been a black screen, according to them - at least, which is just as bad.
The longer ones are further in between than you make it sound. A lot early, less later.

But in the end, it's a pretty shitty game in that regard and not a "trend".

There’s plenty of other games listed who do this same thing as well. And I’m not talking about the cutscenes for you like jumping over a bridge, if you have played the game 99% of the actual story is just through cinematics.

These are hypothetical situations like you said they were lol. There are a ton of games who rely do this for their story telling.

Also, I like how you said these don’t exist at first but then now you’re just saying “well this game is shitty in that regard but it’s not a trend” right after... it didn’t exist? You ever stop to maybe think maybe it is a trend but you just haven’t witnessed it yet?

[KrayZ33]

Also, I like how you said these don’t exist at first but then now you’re just saying “well this game is shitty in that regard but it’s not a trend” right after... it didn’t exist? You ever stop to maybe think maybe it is a trend but you just haven’t witnessed it yet?

What I've noticed is that games use cutscenes for storytelling since 10-15 years ago (which is around the time where it became feasable to do so - maybe even for longer) and it didn't change how I view it at all because it always depends on how good the story was being told during that cutscene - like with any other method they chose.
And It didn't feel like they had a cutscene in Outriders every 5 minutes. I didn't time it though, so at this point I'm still saying these cases don't exist.
I'm saying it's a shitty game in that regard anyway because it's doing a shitty job telling the story. Not because cutscenes are the cause of it, but because the devs are not good at it.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Can you overdo it with cinemastics? Yes.
Are the universally bad? Hell, no.

Especially in an MMO a big story moment is better shown in a cinematic, because random strangers jumping around the talking NPC is not exactly great for portraying a scene with alot of gravitas. On the other hand an hour long cutscene is probably not that good of an idea either if you set out to make a game not a movie. What really iks me though are those cutscenes that go on for a few minutes and suddenly out of nowhere some son of a bitch thought "OMG NAOW IS TIME TO ADD QTE!111", fuck that shit.

[Thoriangun]

Cutscenes become a problem when its used as a medium to cut short the rest of the game.

Ratio is important in this context, 5 hours worth of cutscenes is not horrible when the game is like 35 hours at least without them - 40 hours in total.

1 hour worth of cutscenes is terrible in a game thats 5 or so hours long.

Really short games should not have them at all.

[shadowroguetbc]

What I've noticed is that games use cutscenes for storytelling since 10-15 years ago (which is around the time where it became feasable to do so - maybe even for longer) and it didn't change how I view it at all because it always depends on how good the story was being told during that cutscene - like with any other method they chose.
And It didn't feel like they had a cutscene in Outriders every 5 minutes. I didn't time it though, so at this point I'm still saying these cases don't exist.
I'm saying it's a shitty game in that regard anyway because it's doing a shitty job telling the story. Not because cutscenes are the cause of it, but because the devs are not good at it.

Idk if you haven’t read me saying this a million times or not, but yes... I agree cutscenes and cinematics are detrimental to games, and they should be in them, and without them they would probably really suck. So everytime you describe why cutscenes are important, you’re just agreeing with me.

I didn’t use a timer, but outriders for sure has 1-2 cutscenes for every little ‘area’ you play it which can go by extremely fast. They don’t even attempt to put their story in the gameplay, it’s all done through cutscenes. Which is WHY it is shitty IMO.

I will give you a little example. I’ve played this game for probably 2-3 nights and each night for like 2 hours maximum. It’s a fun game, I love the gameplay, but with this 4-5ish hours played, I’ve skipped a total of an hour and a half of cinematics. I don’t mean the “loading zone” cutscenes where they show you jumping over a bridge or opening a gate either. I mean full on, movie like cinematic.

And this isn’t the only game that does this which is why I’m criticizing this type of art.

I feel like when you got to this post, you just read the title, instantly assumed I meant all cutscenes ever, defended your favorite game that probably had a healthy amount of cutscenes, and now you’re just on the defense about it no matter what. If you just comprehended what I said, maybe you would agree a little bit more.

[KrayZ33]

I feel like when you got to this post, you just read the title, instantly assumed I meant all cutscenes ever, defended your favorite game that probably had a healthy amount of cutscenes, and now you’re just on the defense about it no matter what. If you just comprehended what I said, maybe you would agree a little bit more.

I'm obviously not following the thread from start to finish. I'm using the example games given by your inital post. You can't expect people to read every single one of your post in which you had to explain your point further because you didn't formulate it correctly.

You named WoW, which doesn't have many cutscenes, neither now nor back then, to begin with and I used the scripted-event storytelling they mostly use as an example on how bad it looks in comparison and how awful they feel to me when I'm looking at them or rather "play" (playing in this case is me doing nothing, so basically "suffer") through them.

I'm saying that cutscenes can be used for everything and do a better job than that mess. I'm looking at what games can do to tell a story and there are limits. And I don't want to look at these limitations and think about how poorly they are done, I'd rather see a cutscene that is done in a good way. That has my character/soldier as an active part and look and act realistic in that situation.

There is literally no sane man that would prefer a seeing Kyrian grabbing you by the neck over a cutscene like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-ZILF_H8Iw - it doesn't matter if it was an important part of the story, it's strictly just better.

The witcher has like 12 hours or so of cutscenes. Most of them are just 2 people talking to each other, but it's still much better because the camera angle, the facial animations, the gestures are pre-set and can't (or shouldn't, if it's bug-free) be messed up by unplanned movement and other stuff. They can have characters move around during those, they can do way more this way than they could ever hope to do otherwise.

edit: You also mention "storytelling through gameplay" which is a huge buzz-word but not much more. That thing is very difficult.
You gave D2 as an example for that in your second post. All I can say to this is "what the fuck?".
Either way these are my 2 cents. I'm not going to change any minds either way.

[shadowroguetbc]

I'm obviously not following the thread from start to finish. I'm using the example games given by your inital post. You can't expect people to read every single one of your post in which you had to explain your point further because you didn't formulate it correctly.

You named WoW, which doesn't have many cutscenes, neither now nor back then, to begin with and I used the scripted-event storytelling they mostly use as an example on how bad it looks in comparison and how awful they feel to me when I'm looking at them or rather "play" (playing in this case is me doing nothing, so basically "suffer") through them.

I'm saying that cutscenes can be used for everything and do a better job than that mess. I'm looking at what games can do to tell a story and there are limits. And I don't want to look at these limitations and think about how poorly they are done, I'd rather see a cutscene that is done in a good way. That has my character/soldier as an active part and look and act realistic in that situation.

There is literally no sane man that would prefer a seeing Kyrian grabbing you by the neck over a cutscene like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-ZILF_H8Iw - it doesn't matter if it was an important part of the story, it's strictly just better.

The witcher has like 12 hours or so of cutscenes. Most of them are just 2 people talking to each other, but it's still much better because the camera angle, the facial animations, the gestures are pre-set and can't (or shouldn't, if it's bug-free) be messed up by unplanned movement and other stuff. They can have characters move around during those, they can do way more this way than they could ever hope to do otherwise.

edit: You also mention "storytelling through gameplay" which is a huge buzz-word but not much more. That thing is very difficult.
You gave D2 as an example for that in your second post. All I can say to this is "what the fuck?".
Either way these are my 2 cents. I'm not going to change any minds either way.

You’re literally repeating the same arguments back and forth when I have already addressed most of them and even told you specifically that I agreed with them. But I don’t think we will really come to any conclusion if we aren’t going to read each other’s posts now are we?

[KrayZ33]

You’re literally repeating the same arguments back and forth when I have already addressed most of them and even told you specifically that I agreed with them. But I don’t think we will really come to any conclusion if we aren’t going to read each other’s posts now are we?

I feel like you didn't actually adress a whole lot...
You said that you think cinematic are disrupting and that's about it.
Oh.. and that I like to watch movies.

But the examples you have given about a game doing storytelling through gameplay have been lacking (or non existent actually) and you didn't adress any of the downside that came alongside it either.
So I kinda don't get what I'm supposed to read in your posts that I didn't already read?

Where has it been done in a good way in your opinion, that is actually in line with what you were looking for. What was good in D2's storytelling that made you say it had good storytelling.
Because the things you mentioned so far (like the Wrathgate) are contradicting what you said about it or what you are looking for.
And then you mentioned how you couldn't level because you saw like a bunch of cutscene, when that is also something obviously completely subjective and honestly, actually wrong objectively speaking because the amount of cutscenes you encounter compared to the time you spent leveling without them is *miniscule*. Not even remotely "worrying" or whatever.

What was worrying to me is the amount of scripted stuff like the Battle for Undercity stuff.

When Jaina helped Thrall, when you had to fight back the jailer,
when you had to escort the egg, when you had to escort the mad duke, when you had to defend against the scourge using 2 abilities while slaying ghouls as a farmer during the kyrian questline etc. etc.
I'd rather have a cutscene for each of them if they are done as poorly as that...I'm not getting much out of that "gameplay", if you can even call it that.
Even if that means they have to take away my control. But it's also pointless, because that stuff isn't remotely important enough to make a cutscene for.
So if you have an excessive amount of cutscenes of unimportant stuff, then yes, that would be a problem.. but I still don't know which game would fit in that category.
Outriders tried to use them for worldbuilding - but it didn't stop there - and that's why I said it's doing a bad job overall but I still don't feel like there isn't any/enough gameplay in-between, just less than what would be more healthy maybe? Especially so much of it happens in the beginning, which is the part where you actually want to play the game. So it might taint the perception of it even further.

[Xilurm]

Ever since I was a kid I always always looking forward to the next part of the story. In games like MGS or KH or FF. Especially in FF games where I used to get stuck on almost every boss because I wasn't too good at the games back and and just wanted to see the next cutscene, even if I did like the gameplay.

- - - Updated - - -

Go play outriders

Frankly this is making me want to play Outriders. Shame I didn't download the demo, I thought it would be just another lame Live Service game (aka Avengers) because it was made by Square. But it seems like lots of people like it.

[shadowroguetbc]

You didn't actually adress a whole lot...
You said that you think cinematic are disrupting and that's about it.
Oh.. and that I like to watch movies.

I’m sorry I’m no longer giving you the same courtesy that I’ve been given you, this is all I’m going to read. This isn’t what I said, and I repeated time and time and time again what I said. Until you go back and read them and try again I think I’ll stop wasting my time lol.

[Xilurm]

ALL cutscenes should be skippable. Literally that's the extent of my hard opinions on this. I like story-driven games as a rule and unless the story bores me to tears and/or the cutscenes are terribly implemented (ala Outriders) I'll watch any cutscene just to know what the blazes is going on at least. But for repeat playthroughs, or those times where I want to get on with the game, or if there are cutscenes before a hard boss fight? I very much hold it against the game if their cutscenes can't be skipped. It's basic game design at this point, we're not in 2000 anymore.

Which is why I dislike shit like the glorified cutscenes in games like Half-Life 2, where, oh, they don't take control of your character, they just lock you in a room while plottm happens, which IMO is way worse because not only is that stuff hardly ever skippable, but it means once I'm bored I hop around like a monkey until the not-cutscene finally frees me. Bye bye immersion.

That reminds me of how old FF games had unskippable cutscene, and since I most played those, I thought it was the norm.

Nowdays I'm just glad you can pause cutscenes. Way too many times when something's come up during a cutscene and I had to leave my room or answer the phone or something.

[shadowroguetbc]

Ever since I was a kid I always always looking forward to the next part of the story. In games like MGS or KH or FF. Especially in FF games where I used to get stuck on almost every boss because I wasn't too good at the games back and and just wanted to see the next cutscene, even if I did like the gameplay.

- - - Updated - - -



Frankly this is making me want to play Outriders. Shame I didn't download the demo, I thought it would be just another lame Live Service game (aka Avengers) because it was made by Square. But it seems like lots of people like it.

You can get the demo and try it for free I think, up to level 7. And you should play it, the game is a TON of fun. The only issue is how they present their story.

[Xilurm]

Holy Christ they had one that was that long? At what point does it stop being a video game haha

NGL, even I had a bit of a gripe with the way MGS4 was. There was just so little gameplay, even though the gameplay was fun. But you could barely do anything before you ran into another cutscene. Then MGSV came and I had a gripe with that because it was the exact opposite. Gameplay was fun, but there's hardly any plot happening. Which is why I think MGS2 and MGS3 had the perfect balance.

[KrayZ33]

I’m sorry I’m no longer giving you the same courtesy that I’ve been given you, this is all I’m going to read. This isn’t what I said, and I repeated time and time and time again what I said. Until you go back and read them and try again I think I’ll stop wasting my time lol.

I'm sorry that you can't remember what you have written.
So I'm not going to bother either.
I think you offer nothing worth discussing. Just statements, I gave you mine - so we are done anyway.

[shadowroguetbc]

I'm sorry that you can't remember what you have written.
So I'm not going to bother either.

Quote me where I said that cinematics are only disrupting, please. I’ve messaged you multiple times that I think they are amazing and needed in video games. Everything your posting is just talking about how good cutscenes are. You have barely even addressed what my actual issue was.

Reading is tough, I know.

[Kathranis]

Cinematics are cool unless you have silly companies like squeenix where they throw you super long ones at your face.

If you don't want cutscenes, don't play RPGs?

[khazmodan]

Can't stand cinematics. I skip all skippable ones in most cases.

I skip almost all dialogue and cutscenes too. Nothing matches my hatred of tutorials though,.

best tutorial ever

[KrayZ33]

Quote me where I said that cinematics are only disrupting, please. I’ve messaged you multiple times that I think they are amazing and needed in video games. Everything your posting is just talking about how good cutscenes are. You have barely even addressed what my actual issue was.

Reading is tough, I know.

Reading is tough I know

You said that you think cinematic are disrupting...

is what I have written.

Maybe, if you wouldn't add words that completely change the meaning of a sentence you'd have a better time understanding?
Or expressing yoruself?
The reason why I'm apparently not adressing your issues is because you fail to state them properly.
It took you 3 post to specify your shit and to align your position remotely to what you are thinking.
And I'm still not sure what you are actually looking for.

edit:
A story has to be told, stories get more complex, a D2 story isn't enough for most gamers anymore.
It would be a sad excuse nowadays.
So how would you do it? Saying you don't want it and it's "lame" means very little by itself.
If you have an idea on how to enhance the experience and get a similar effect to how well the story is being told, why won't you mention it?
If you don't have it, what am I supposed to adress?