Page 20 of 34 FirstFirst ...
10
18
19
20
21
22
30
... LastLast
  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Ukraine is semi-presidential republic, and Yanukovich's cabinet agreed with his decision.

    At no point was Yanukovich anywhere near dictatorial powers.

    Elections were going to happen just a year later.
    yanukovich embezzled so much money he had a full sized pirate ship. lmao

    you've very much eaten up putins view of the world which is paranoid.

    i watched his address, yanukovich reminds of of now lukashenko, putin doesnt like him but now hes forced to be a russian client state, putin is pretending that its the west who attempted an armed coup against him not an organic movement because hes a fucking cunt. The same myth was deployed in ukraine.

    Putin is terrified of people power (east germany, soviet union, arab spring, colour rev's, maidan) and he attributes this not to people rising up to topple authoritarian regimes but instead 'the CIA and MI6'. hes paranoid and gets high on his own supply.

    He views the world as zero sum, if russia loses ukraine the somebody else has taken it! Which isnt reality. He thinks its Risk, and the westerners are cheating!

    You seem to have the same views but i cant blame paranoid security briefings and i dont know how old you are so i cant guess how much imperial collapse youve been smashed by. I wonder why you do hold these detached views?

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    Yanukovich was literally robbing his country blind, there was a reason that Russian soldiers came in to save him when the country rose up against him.
    So did later Poroshenko, and now Zelensky.

    That was good reason to elect someone else, not to perform coup.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    yanukovich embezzled so much money he had a full sized pirate ship. lmao
    And? Next one had literally billions too. They still failed to prove it to EU courts as well.

    you've very much eaten up putins view of the world which is paranoid.
    Being corrupt is sufficient reason to coup anyone out, in your opinion?

    Every country has plenty of people dissatisfied with current government.

    i watched his address, yanukovich reminds of of now lukashenko, putin doesnt like him but now hes forced to be a russian client state, putin is pretending that its the west who attempted an armed coup against him not an organic movement because hes a fucking cunt. The same myth was deployed in ukraine.
    "Organic" movements with seeds carefully sown and nurtured by Western agencies. It's not a myth, it's a reality.

    Without Western help - sanctioning his government forcing some of them to leave, condemning his more then mild policing actions, then promising him adequate resolution - and then open support of protesters - coup wouldn't happen.

    Putin is terrified of people power (east germany, soviet union, arab spring, colour rev's, maidan) and he attributes this not to people rising up to topple authoritarian regimes but instead 'the CIA and MI6'. hes paranoid and gets high on his own supply.
    Even if he is, support of "color revolutions" was explicit US tactic. "People rising up" is not mutually exclusive to "help from CIA and MI6".

    If it's just people rising up, then clearly cutting Western support will do nothing to stop those movements.

    He views the world as zero sum, if russia loses ukraine the somebody else has taken it! Which isnt reality. He thinks its Risk, and the westerners are cheating!
    Except it was EU, not Russia, that started seeing it as zero-sum. There were plenty of offers for tri-partite talks on EU-Ukraine-Russia arrangement - offers that were refused.

    You seem to have the same views but i cant blame paranoid security briefings and i dont know how old you are so i cant guess how much imperial collapse youve been smashed by. I wonder why you do hold these detached views?
    It's just one of facets of reality; noone sees entire picture.
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2021-04-23 at 08:20 AM.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Except it was EU, not Russia, that started seeing it as zero-sum. There were plenty of offers for tri-partite talks on EU-Ukraine-Russia arrangement - offers that were refused.
    You aren't getting it.

    RUSSIA.DOESN'T.GET.A.SAY.ON.THE.INTERNAL.POLITICAL.DIRECTION.OF.UKRAINE.

    The relationship between the EU and Ukraine is between the EU and Ukraine. Russia doesn't get a role in that.

    Russia's attitude of dictating the politics of nations it considers "it's areas of interest" is the exact mother fucking reason why everyone is desperate to escape Russia's orbit and what makes the EU so attractive (among other reasons tied to economics and human rights).

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    You aren't getting it.

    RUSSIA.DOESN'T.GET.A.SAY.ON.THE.INTERNAL.POLITICAL.DIRECTION.OF.UKRAINE.
    We did, do, and will.

    The relationship between the EU and Ukraine is between the EU and Ukraine. Russia doesn't get a role in that.
    We offered to discuss better arrangement that would be beneficial to everyone involved - Ukraine included. Because Association Agreement was and remains to be problematic in many areas for Ukraine. Forcing Ukraine to adopt it means you consider EU to be the only one capable of deciding anyone's political direction.

    EU exceptionalism at it's finest.

    We offered better deal in Russia-Ukraine relations then EU did in EU-Ukraine relations. EU immediately flipped the table rather then make better counteroffer.

    Russia's attitude of dictating the politics of nations it considers "it's areas of interest" is the exact mother fucking reason why everyone is desperate to escape Russia's orbit and what makes the EU so attractive (among other reasons tied to economics and human rights).
    Look in the mirror - and at Brexit. So attractive that internal political fights are enough to quit it.
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2021-04-23 at 08:35 AM.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    We did, do, and will.
    so again, imperialism is fine?

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    We did, do, and will.

    We offered to discuss better arrangement that would be beneficial to everyone involved - Ukraine included. Because Association Agreement was and remains to be problematic in many areas for Ukraine. Forcing Ukraine to adopt it means you consider EU to be the only one capable of deciding anyone's political direction.

    EU exceptionalism at it's finest.

    We offered better deal in Russia-Ukraine relations then EU did in EU-Ukraine relations. EU immediately flipped the table rather then make better counteroffer.

    Look in the mirror - and at Brexit. So attractive that internal political fights are enough to quit it.
    No, you don't. If you think that, then you have no respect for any other country than your own.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    We did, do, and will.
    No you fucking don't. It's just a matter of time and human suffering, but that very attitude is why countries are willing to sacrifice so much to escape Russia's orbit. It's inevitable. As long as Russia is what Russia is it's fucking toxic.

    We offered to discuss better arrangement that would be beneficial to everyone involved - Ukraine included. Because Association Agreement was and remains to be problematic in many areas for Ukraine. Forcing Ukraine to adopt it means you consider EU to be the only one capable of deciding anyone's political direction.

    EU exceptionalism at it's finest.

    We offered better deal in Russia-Ukraine relations then EU did in EU-Ukraine relations. EU immediately flipped the table rather then make better counteroffer.
    Russia doesn't get to barter with the EU the future of Ukraine. That's between the EU and Ukraine.

    Look in the mirror - and at Brexit. So attractive that internal political fights are enough to quit it.
    1. Brexit had roughly fuck all to do with the EU's influence on internal politics of its member states. Go jerk off Dribbles in the Brexit thread if you're going to try and push that narrative.
    2. And even if it did have something to do with the influence of the EU (it didn't), Brussels didn't fucking invade and annex Scotland or threatens to nuke London once every second Tuesday. It's a false analogy.

    This is why EU and NATO are more attractive than Russia and whatever insane neo-Russian empire Russia calls its different "alliances". People join the EU and NATO voluntarily and can leave whenever they want without being threatened with war and invasion.

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    so again, imperialism is fine?
    What is proper response to US/EU imperialism, in your opinion? Honest question.

    What do you think Russia should have done to counter it? You keep quipping that everything Russia did was wrong, but your own position remains elusive.

    ===

    "Our imperialism is fine, your imperialism is not" is quite strange stance. Or "What we do isn't actually imperialism - it's all organic! But what you do is".

    If it's organic then we can just as well claim that both Crimea and Donbass were organic movements that were supported by outside influence - just like Maidan. And then it'll be just question of what degree of support is acceptable, as well as which outcomes.

    Forcing to adopt certain trade agreement that might ruin the country is fine, but secession is beyond pale?

    Is forcing corrupt president to adopt certain agreement through coercion or outright removal desirable? Should have EU done it, even if that resulted in destabilizing country for decades?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    No you fucking don't. It's just a matter of time and human suffering, but that very attitude is why countries are willing to sacrifice so much to escape Russia's orbit. It's inevitable. As long as Russia is what Russia is it's fucking toxic.
    You are just unable to deal with those who cannot be cowed to your will. Where you cannot use your weight to get your way.

    You should learn to do that rather then pretend to be final arbiter of everything.

    Russia doesn't get to barter with the EU the future of Ukraine. That's between the EU and Ukraine.
    Likewise EU doesn't get to barter with Russia over the future of Ukraine. That's between Russia and Ukraine.

    Using whatever tools Russia has available.

    1. Brexit had roughly fuck all to do with the EU's influence on internal politics of its member states. Go jerk off Dribbles in the Brexit thread if you're going to try and push that narrative.
    2. And even if it did have something to do with the influence of the EU (it didn't), Brussels didn't fucking invade and annex Scotland or threatens to nuke London once every second Tuesday. It's a false analogy.
    You were playing "frozen conflict" with Ireland parts though. That it didn't flare up wasn't on EU.

    This is why EU and NATO are more attractive than Russia and whatever insane neo-Russian empire Russia calls its different "alliances". People join the EU and NATO voluntarily and can leave whenever they want without being threatened with war and invasion.
    Some countries don't have an option, like Armenia - with NATO member Turkey openly supporting Azerbaijan.

    Other countries are more important to Russia then to EU, and so we can offer them better terms.

    And sometimes your reliability is more questionable then Russian - like with China.
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2021-04-23 at 09:19 AM.

  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    sip.
    The sheer volume of horseshit you churn out is fucking stunning. Tho it makes sense considering it's your job.

    Putting aside the rest of your asinine whataboutist drivel, here's the key bit.

    Using whatever tools Russia has available.
    Joining democratic political and military alliances that you can leave anytime you want and where you have an effective veto over anything no matter how small you might be =/=imperialism.

    A couple of posts ago you were fucking bitching about the internal dysfunction of the EU... The internal dysfunction derived from its democratic and voluntary nature....make up your mind, which is it?

    Don't answer that cuz you'll just shit out some random contradictory nonsense anyway or complete bullshit lie, as you always do. Mr. The Little Green Men aren't Russian troops.

    The worst thing that happens to you if you leave is that you won't benefit from the perks of being a member of the club. That's fucking it.

    Now stop trying to drag Ireland into this. That too is 100% on the UK anyway as the issue with the land border literally predates the EU. The EU was a solution to the problem, a solution the UK chose to discard, and even then a compromise was offered by the EU that is a working solution.

    It's not a good one, as membership was better, but this is what it called a "compromise".

    But again, stop trying to derail this.

    Using whatever tools Russia has available.
    This is the important bit. This is why the EU isn't imperialist but YOU are. The willingness to use force when you have nothing of value to offer, you don't have partners or allies, you have subjects.

    Bro, I hope you like those turnips you're paid in.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2021-04-23 at 11:49 AM.

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Joining democratic political and military alliances that you can leave anytime you want and where you have an effective veto over anything no matter how small you might be =/=imperialism.

    The worst thing that happens to you if you leave is that you won't benefit from the perks of being a member of the club. That's fucking it.
    But as we see in Ukraine if you refuse the offer then you might get yourself (attempted to be) overthrown and replaced by someone who will.

    Your government will get sanctioned, your foreign assets seized, protesters will get verbal and sometimes material support, and so on.


    Now stop trying to drag Ireland into this. That too is 100% on the UK anyway as the issue with the land border literally predates the EU. The EU was a solution to the problem, a solution the UK chose to discard, and even then a compromise was offered by the EU that is a working solution.
    Crimea issue also predated EU, how curious.

    This is the important bit. This is why the EU isn't imperialist but YOU are. The willingness to use force when you have nothing value to offer.
    Except that's what EU and US employed with Maidan.

    We had plenty of value to offer, and won on that value - until you went with "screw the rules, regime change".

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    "screw the rules, regime change".
    no matter how many times you repeat this its still paranoid fantasy.

  12. #392
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    58,334
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    But as we see in Ukraine if you refuse the offer then you might get yourself (attempted to be) overthrown and replaced by someone who will.
    Russia isn’t a pirate ship... you don’t get to steal from a country and then complain you got kicked out. You think it’s western influence, then release Yavnikovich to Ukraine and let’s see what evidence, beyond the plethora that exist against him, will be presented.

    No, the East went into Ukraine and retrieved the criminal. Was it the west’s fault you took Crimea or you think it’s the west’s fault that a country isn’t happy Russia stole their land?

    Why would there need to be outside interference, when Russia is exclusively there? You keep pointing at conspiracy theory by the west, but records exist of Russia doing it... not the west...

    Another remarkable thing... Where all the people that bitch about western culture? This is a thread where western culture is being attacked. Where are all the Trump supporters standing up for western culture? Why is everyone defending the west, those damn leftist who want to destroy western culture? Just... interesting...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    no matter how many times you repeat this its still paranoid fantasy.
    You provide no arguments, all you deal in is assertions.

    As you have no support for your point except claim that it is all "totally organic", it is quite clear which position is stronger.

  14. #394
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    58,334
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    You provide no arguments, all you deal in is assertions.
    Uhm... Russia are not pirates, is not only a solid argument, it also seems complementary.

    As you have no support for your point except claim that it is all "totally organic", it is quite clear which position is stronger.
    Sure, let Yavnikovich be tried in Ukraine... let’s see the evidence...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Russia isn’t a pirate ship... you don’t get to steal from a country and then complain you got kicked out. You think it’s western influence, then release Yavnikovich to Ukraine and let’s see what evidence, beyond the plethora that exist against him, will be presented.
    How would that prove anything to anyone? Could you walk me through your logic?

    Why would there need to be outside interference, when Russia is exclusively there? You keep pointing at conspiracy theory by the west, but records exist of Russia doing it... not the west...
    What is the point of denying the obvious? Both are doing that.

  16. #396
    Banned Yadryonych's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Матушка Россия
    Posts
    2,006
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    release Yavnikovich to Ukraine
    Nobody is holding Eunuchovich here, he is staying voluntarily. I'd even say, he's happy to stay

  17. #397
    Didn't see this posted; The U.S. senate foreign relations committee advanced a bill on Wednesday to deliver up to $300 million a year in military assistance to Kyiv until 2026.

    Among the legislation's terms lawmakers will consider will be making sure Ukraine gets "lethal assistance" which includes anti-armor weapon systems and anti-aircraft weapons systems.

    The bill would encourage allied nations to provide Ukraine with "excess defense articles on an expedited basis." It would also prioritize the procurement of vessels for the Ukrainian Navy "to counter Russian maritime aggression" and maintain the freedom of passage in the Black Sea.

  18. #398
    I do enjoy watching the legion of Putinistas lining up to defend authoritarian and violent regimes.

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Didn't see this posted; The U.S. senate foreign relations committee advanced a bill on Wednesday to deliver up to $300 million a year in military assistance to Kyiv until 2026.

    Among the legislation's terms lawmakers will consider will be making sure Ukraine gets "lethal assistance" which includes anti-armor weapon systems and anti-aircraft weapons systems.

    The bill would encourage allied nations to provide Ukraine with "excess defense articles on an expedited basis." It would also prioritize the procurement of vessels for the Ukrainian Navy "to counter Russian maritime aggression" and maintain the freedom of passage in the Black Sea.
    Ukraine to be used as dump for all surplus military equipment that would be cheaper to ship to Ukraine then to recycle (especially at US prices).

    Wouldn't be first time.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Ukraine to be used as dump for all surplus military equipment that would be cheaper to ship to Ukraine then to recycle (especially at US prices).
    The US is a top exporter of weapons around the world we don't need to recycle anything.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •