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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    You don't have to run your own keys. You can just join a group, look at the other 3 players who you couldn't see before joining and then decide whether you want to do that or not. As healer you do have that luxury to just leave groups before the run starts and try to find something better. Same for tanks.

    You're saying your time is limited but then act like it's not. If you want to get KSM while not having much time to play, then you need to aggressively use raider.io. It's way better to take the 5-10 minutes extra before starting the dungeon and therefore committing to that hopefully good group, than to waste 30+ minutes over and over again with bad ones.

    Your rio profile is the perfect example why rio is so important and why playing without it is such a miserable pug experience.
    I fully understand it should work like you say, but due to my inner kindness I feel sorry to leave before even starting that’s why I would prefer to know members’ rio before applying. I don’t know why it’s not possible with rio, is it an API limit of some sort?

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    +15s not +10s ^^ we farmed vault for mythic week and did a mix of 14s and 15s in time and downgraded the 16s and after the vault was caped we switched to +10s on mains only.
    All this with a 190-195 ilvl and class stacking, we didnt had fire mages and boomkins faceroll +15s like you do now lol, my 3 raid chars this tier are DH (main) and Hunter, Ret as split alts so my 3 farm grps looked like this:
    1.) 3 warr and 2 pallys
    2.) 2 dhs and 3 druids
    3.) 1 DK tank 3 Hunter and 1 shaman

    im still baffed how this bads cant get ksm with 220 ilvl, renown 40 and 226 conduits and blaming R.io for it.
    Because they don’t try as hard as you do, and because they don’t even know what they did wrong when there’s a wipe. They also don’t do it very frequently, and (if they’re like me) the step up to m+ has been an adjustment as I didn’t play most of BFA and Legion was much easier.

    If you did +10s at 180 you’re in the top like .1% of players. There are a lot of players only playing a few hours a week and mostly yoloing through m+. If you do 4 dungeons a week, you see each dungeon once every two weeks. It’s harder to learn when the practice is spread out over weeks than when it is concentrated. There are probably 100x as many players laying this way as their are players who farmed +10-15 in the first week.

    There’s definitely also a lack of accountability in pugging where it’s easy for everyone to blame each other.
    Every single wow player should always try to make their own groups. Then you'd just have thousands of groups in group finder, without a single applicant.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Because they don’t try as hard as you do, and because they don’t even know what they did wrong when there’s a wipe. They also don’t do it very frequently, and (if they’re like me) the step up to m+ has been an adjustment as I didn’t play most of BFA and Legion was much easier.

    If you did +10s at 180 you’re in the top like .1% of players. There are a lot of players only playing a few hours a week and mostly yoloing through m+. If you do 4 dungeons a week, you see each dungeon once every two weeks. It’s harder to learn when the practice is spread out over weeks than when it is concentrated. There are probably 100x as many players laying this way as their are players who farmed +10-15 in the first week.

    There’s definitely also a lack of accountability in pugging where it’s easy for everyone to blame each other.
    This is exactly why we do “need” rio and even an advanced version that shows at a glance a custom number of data of appliers and group members already in group.

    Reaching a rio level that suits 14, doing a 14 and dying without knowing why it’s simply not acceptable. You can die of course, no prob, but you can’t not have a clue of the reason why.

    Someone wrote before that in a HoA 14-15 he still saw people that ran away if hit by Echelon circle instead of sticking to tank to kill gargoyles: again this is not acceptable. You can notice you’re circled too late and not move fast enough and that’s fine but you just can’t run away from the boss, how the hack did you manage to do it before?

    Or some weeks ago in a PF 13 a hunter got mad and left after 3 wipes at first boss blaming the tank because he didn’t position the boss in order for him to venom breath turned towards the tank and not towards the others. I mean, really? Yes, really.

    It’s fine not having a clue but it’s also fine trying to play with ppl that have a basic clue. Not extreme clue, just, jesus, basic.

  4. #444
    I was tanking on my alt paladin and joined a random yolo group for a +10 Plaguefall.

    It took 90 minutes because on top of all the wipes from dying to mechanics, not interrupting, pulling random adds accidently, and not avoiding the spiteful ghosts, the group also died to tentacle phase on the final boss. Their IO's were all low so I knew what I was getting into. We only finished it off because as I died with the shammy, his earth elemental finished the last 10k hp.

    Are these players being held back by IO? There seems to be this mentality of an addon scoring system being the reason why you aren't invited to groups. Truth of the matter is we are very far into the patch and it's expected at this point to know mechanics. Being 220+ ilvl doesn't mean anything if you are dying to tentacle slams or the self destructing slimes on the 2nd boss of Plaguefall. Most people who have KSM worked their way up from lower keys. I know I did. I was dying a ton while learning routes, cooldown rotations, and just general strategies for each dungeon.

    You also have to consider the options people have when forming groups. Someone who is 1300 io and just doing a 14 for their weekly vault is gonna invite people with similar ios over the guy whos best dungeon is a +12 Mists untimed. The best way to get your IO up initially is to either join a guild/group that will carry you or push your own keys over a couple weeks.

    I also guarantee anyone who bitches about not getting invited to groups will quickly be very selective of people in their own key when you are trying to time +14/+15 keys.
    Last edited by DoctorGHouse; 2021-04-16 at 05:20 PM.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    This is exactly why we do “need” rio and even an advanced version that shows at a glance a custom number of data of appliers and group members already in group.

    Reaching a rio level that suits 14, doing a 14 and dying without knowing why it’s simply not acceptable. You can die of course, no prob, but you can’t not have a clue of the reason why.

    Someone wrote before that in a HoA 14-15 he still saw people that ran away if hit by Echelon circle instead of sticking to tank to kill gargoyles: again this is not acceptable. You can notice you’re circled too late and not move fast enough and that’s fine but you just can’t run away from the boss, how the hack did you manage to do it before?

    Or some weeks ago in a PF 13 a hunter got mad and left after 3 wipes at first boss blaming the tank because he didn’t position the boss in order for him to venom breath turned towards the tank and not towards the others. I mean, really? Yes, really.

    It’s fine not having a clue but it’s also fine trying to play with ppl that have a basic clue. Not extreme clue, just, jesus, basic.
    What I’m saying is that you can time 12s that way, so a lot of players end up in 13s and 14s and don’t have a clue.
    Every single wow player should always try to make their own groups. Then you'd just have thousands of groups in group finder, without a single applicant.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    Doesn't matter about "features", it's how people use it - and people use it exactly the same. Look at the score, nothing else.
    that's obviously not true. the reason that people look at different metrics is the reason raider.io exists in the first place.

    the only time i look at just ilvl or just ioscore is when i'm doing something relatively easy and all i want is "good enough". (and this is probably the demographic blizzard implementation will target).

    when i'm doing a +20 key you can bet i'm looking at more than just the number.

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    What I’m saying is that you can time 12s that way, so a lot of players end up in 13s and 14s and don’t have a clue.
    You can time a 12 that way only if you’re carried or you vastly overgear it. And not in Tyr weeks because in Tyr weeks one single boss wipe with the boss below 25% means bye bye timer 9 times on 10.

    I’m an average joe healer, I don’t know pro tips and tricks, I try to do my best and sometimes I fail badly because I’m not a robot, but I know mechanics. I can fail them for whatever reason but I know them. And I hadn’t to reach +14 to learn them.

    You can fail positioning Stitchflesh’s hook and it’s just fine, I sometimes fails it too still today (I remember I had probably a ultra “lucky” streak when I did low level M+ and I was never targeted by the hook and so I thought that it was a mechanic that didn’t involve healers, guess what happened the first time I was targeted by the hook...) but you have to know it has to be positioned unless the run I’m in is your first run into NW (and in case it won’t be a 12 for sure).

  8. #448
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    Now if they only fix it so you can search specific m+ levels (putting a +10 shows all the plus 10s) we could all have a merry xmas

  9. #449
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Infact I said that blocking ppl is NOT a solution. But the problem exists indeed.
    Sorry, I disagree that it is a "problem" if a person who has beat a 16 before decides to queue for a 14 key. They are in the appropriate key range for their skills/experience. People shouldn't only be expected to queue for keys better than what they've already done.

    it sucks if you needed that 14, but if it wasn't that guy filling the group, it could have been another guy who had a more appealing spec or a higher ilvl or any number of other metrics. That's just the nature of how competitive it is for spots.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    We are talking about two different things. I'm all in for M+ communities. As long as you're connecting with other people then it doesn't matter if it's in a guild or some other kind of community. That's not what I'm talking about. And when I say "good guild" you could might as well replace that with "good m+ community". Because in the end it serves the same purpose and is good for the social aspect of the game. The most important thing is for people to connect and recognize the player sitting on the other side of the computer screen. So you're completely misunderstanding my intend here.

    My critique is of the large part of the wow playerbase that treat wow as a single-player game and treat other players as NPCs. These are the type of people I talk about when I say the pugging environment is toxic and harmful to the social aspects of the game. And these players want to Blizzard adapt the game to their anti social approach. But this is obviously not applicable to you and type of m+ communities you're in. I only used Guilds as an example because it's the most traditional way for people to connect in wow. But other communities work just as well. The problem is people who refuse to socialize with other players in any way and expect the game to cater to them.

    Let me finish off by saying, the way you approach pugging is very good. You're able to play with "random people" and still retain the social aspects of the game. The problem is that you are a rarity in relation to the entire player base. The majority of people don't say anything other than "hi" when they join a pug. And with auto queue systems in place they don't even say "hi"
    No, because we're really not talking about different things and I am not misunderstanding your intent. I'm glad you understand that those things are good and positive, but here is the thing: You're still making generalisations about the pugging population that frankly aren't accurate or fair. I'm not the exception to how PuGs are, and you seem to think I am; I am a reflection to what is very common in the PuGing community. This perception you have that PuGs are antisocial and every man for itself isn't correct. Those people exist but they are much less common than m+ players who approach it like me, especially once you get out of the low key range. Maybe if you're just autoqueuing for timewalking or some shit on an alt and you're just there to get in and out and not make friends, but not in keystones.

    You're making these statements with something you have self admitted you have zero experience with because you don't pug. They aren't accurate, and you're just shitting on PuGing for perceived biases that aren't actually a reflection of reality. Saying, "no how you do it is fine, it's everyone else that is wrong" is not fair because a good chunk of everyone else operates very similarly to how I do.

    People don't chat during keys, myself included. There is no time for it. We mostly say necessary communications only, maybe a quip here or there. This isn't really any different than the keys I run with friends. That doesn't mean people are antisocial, or treating each other like NPCs. We're still working together as a team to accomplish an objective there and at the end if we succeed, we're going to congratulate each other and tell each other good job and maybe decide to run another key together or add each other to bnet so next time we PuG we can maybe have one more known variable in the group. If the key was miserable we maybe don't do that and just thank each other and leave, but even then we still got through the run by playing cooperatively with other players, which is what an MMO is about. It's a positive thing, and we didn't have to make small talk to do it. Being verbally nonsocial is not antisocial, especially when you are displaying a collaborative attitude towards other humans.

    I'm not going to pretend all pugs are rosey and positive. There are definitely plenty of people out there who are selfish assholes and treat their teammates as disposables rather than people, but they are really a minority of people. The thing that makes PuGing so miserable sometimes is that it only takes one of them in a group of five to kill the good vibes, but that still doesn't change the fact that they're much less common.

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  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    that's obviously not true. the reason that people look at different metrics is the reason raider.io exists in the first place.

    the only time i look at just ilvl or just ioscore is when i'm doing something relatively easy and all i want is "good enough". (and this is probably the demographic blizzard implementation will target).

    when i'm doing a +20 key you can bet i'm looking at more than just the number.
    For the most part, yes it's obviously true.

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    For the most part, yes it's obviously true.
    then why did people have a desire for ioscore in the first place if all they looked at was the be all end all number popular before?

    heck even in pugs for weekly keys people are excessively concerned about good/bad specs/classes. they even look at that BEFORE they look at ioscore.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    then why did people have a desire for ioscore in the first place if all they looked at was the be all end all number popular before?

    heck even in pugs for weekly keys people are excessively concerned about good/bad specs/classes. they even look at that BEFORE they look at ioscore.
    *for the most part* it's just gearscore on steroids, that's all.

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Something Wicked View Post
    They really are dead-set on trying to kill their own game, aren't they?

    That's what happens when you put a self-proclaimed "elitist jerk" in the driver's seat. They're just so completely fucking oblivious about the majority of their own player base.
    Everyone already uses raiderIO, if it was a bad feature nobody would use it. I understand that it makes it harder to get on the ladder if you're late to the party, but without it high M+ pugging would not even happen. Blizzard adding the feature changes absolutely nothing, because raiderio has already been dominating the M+ pug scene for years.

    The majority of the playerbase who does M+ already uses it, even if you don't have it installed other players can see your M+ history.

    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    *for the most part* it's just gearscore on steroids, that's all.
    Gearscore boiled down was just ilvl, we still have and use that and it makes more sense in a world without hit/expertise caps. RIO shows your actual dungeon and raiding history, it's literally showing your experience with the content at a glance. You can't compare something that completely ignores player skill/experience with a system that is solely based on player skill/experience.

    Like it or not, RIO successfully shows other players on average the likelyhood of success with a player in any given content.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2021-04-16 at 08:45 PM.
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  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    You can time a 12 that way only if you’re carried or you vastly overgear it. And not in Tyr weeks because in Tyr weeks one single boss wipe with the boss below 25% means bye bye timer 9 times on 10.

    I’m an average joe healer, I don’t know pro tips and tricks, I try to do my best and sometimes I fail badly because I’m not a robot, but I know mechanics. I can fail them for whatever reason but I know them. And I hadn’t to reach +14 to learn them.

    You can fail positioning Stitchflesh’s hook and it’s just fine, I sometimes fails it too still today (I remember I had probably a ultra “lucky” streak when I did low level M+ and I was never targeted by the hook and so I thought that it was a mechanic that didn’t involve healers, guess what happened the first time I was targeted by the hook...) but you have to know it has to be positioned unless the run I’m in is your first run into NW (and in case it won’t be a 12 for sure).
    You’re talking about the basic mechanics, I’m talking about things like interrupts that don’t kill you until you get high enough that they matter.

    When people talk about how the healer does lower hps in a 16 than a 13, it’s because of the extent to which people at the 16 level control mobs and handle mechanics... not getting hit by cleave, cycling stuns, killing priority targets, helping the tank kite, blowing CDs on the right pull, and even simple things like “hey, instead of popping combust and pulling aggro, let me interrupt that caster and help the adds get grouped, THEN pop combust.”

    As you go up the chain there’s more and more to process once you get above a certain point because your gear doesn’t save you anymore. That seems to really start to kick in around 14.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-04-16 at 10:12 PM.
    Every single wow player should always try to make their own groups. Then you'd just have thousands of groups in group finder, without a single applicant.

  15. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    You’re talking about the basic mechanics, I’m talking about things like interrupts that don’t kill you until you get high enough that they matter.

    When people talk about how the healer does lower hps in a 16 than a 13, it’s because of the extent to which people at the 16 level control mobs and handle mechanics... not getting hit by cleave, cycling stuns, killing priority targets, helping the tank kite, blowing CDs on the right pull, and even simple things like “hey, instead of popping combust and pulling aggro, let me interrupt that caster and help the adds get grouped, THEN pop combust.”

    As you go up the chain there’s more and more to process once you get above a certain point because your gear doesn’t save you anymore. That seems to really start to kick in around 14.
    lol... goresplatter in necrotic wake... so many wipes there with pugs...

  16. #456
    I always laugh when someone complains bout being denied from keys and gets the usual “jUsT mAke YoUr oWn gRouP!” response.

    Firstly, if everyone made their own group there’d be no one to join them. More importantly however, if I need to spam X dungeon for a certain item (usually a a trinket), especially with the new Valor system, it’s basically impossible to farm a specific dungeon relying on your own key.

    Wether it’s the external r.IO or a Blizzard one, the outcome will be the same. My main has KSM yet my mage got declined from a +5 because my IO score is as a healer and not DPS. It’s absurd and I honestly CBF because of this combined with the systems grind. Easier to just unsubscribe when I’m done with my main and play another game until the next season that doesn’t make me jump through hoops like a circus animal.

    I’m quite happy with M+ as endgame content on my main. I raid Heroic then gear progression comes from M+ but it’s honestly a pain in the ass on alts, especially non-meta specs.

    Blizzard seriously need to look at making Heroic Dungeons relevant again for player who just want a bit of hop in hop out content... like Random BG’s. Obviously keep M+ as a form of endgame progression, but just make the queueable content worth doing for those who CBF dealing with the .IO/MM Rating.

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    I always laugh when someone complains bout being denied from keys and gets the usual “jUsT mAke YoUr oWn gRouP!” response.

    Firstly, if everyone made their own group there’d be no one to join them. More importantly however, if I need to spam X dungeon for a certain item (usually a a trinket), especially with the new Valor system, it’s basically impossible to farm a specific dungeon relying on your own key.

    Wether it’s the external r.IO or a Blizzard one, the outcome will be the same. My main has KSM yet my mage got declined from a +5 because my IO score is as a healer and not DPS.
    Why you do assume you got declined based on your R.IO as a healer? It seems people have the extreme warped expectation that they are the ONLY one applying and thus if they get declined something was wrong with them personally. There are dozen of DPS applying for almost all keys, you not getting picked can be something as simple as: "We already have a mage, don't need a 2nd."

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Qnubi View Post
    Why you do assume you got declined based on your R.IO as a healer? It seems people have the extreme warped expectation that they are the ONLY one applying and thus if they get declined something was wrong with them personally. There are dozen of DPS applying for almost all keys, you not getting picked can be something as simple as: "We already have a mage, don't need a 2nd."
    And why do you assume that I assumed anything? I applied to the group, got invited, then got “Sorry mage, didn’t notice your mains .io score is as a healer” and was kicked from the group.

    Yes, this shit happens, people don’t have to assume anything.... that’s why I used it as example opposed to the other 9000 times I was declined from groups silently, because as you say, I wasn’t the only one applying.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    I always laugh when someone complains bout being denied from keys and gets the usual “jUsT mAke YoUr oWn gRouP!” response.

    Firstly, if everyone made their own group there’d be no one to join them. More importantly however, if I need to spam X dungeon for a certain item (usually a a trinket), especially with the new Valor system, it’s basically impossible to farm a specific dungeon relying on your own key.
    1. People tell you to make your own group because making your own group works. It's almost like there are thousands of KSM players who pugged their own keys in addition to getting invited to other people's keys. It's almost like there are new people getting KSM every single day pugging keys. If other people can do it, so can you.

    2. If you really need a specific item drop, now with Valor it's way better to just go into lower keys and carry those runs with your high ilvl. If you're 210+ and apply for a +2, you'll get an invite in no time. You spam those dungeons and then upgrade the item with Valor. Nobody in their right mind would spam 35-40 minute DoS+15 runs for the tiny chance of a trinket drop, just to save some Valor points.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    1. People tell you to make your own group because making your own group works. It's almost like there are thousands of KSM players who pugged their own keys in addition to getting invited to other people's keys. It's almost like there are new people getting KSM every single day pugging keys. If other people can do it, so can you.

    2. If you really need a specific item drop, now with Valor it's way better to just go into lower keys and carry those runs with your high ilvl. If you're 210+ and apply for a +2, you'll get an invite in no time. You spam those dungeons and then upgrade the item with Valor. Nobody in their right mind would spam 35-40 minute DoS+15 runs for the tiny chance of a trinket drop, just to save some Valor points.
    I do. I can't bring myself to go in ToP+2 to get the ruby, so I do only ToP +15 and above. Granted I already have it but 207 and non upgradable.

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