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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    But gear is not gated behind a timer. You can wipe through a dungeon for hours and as long as you beat it somehow, you will get a weekly reward from it. M+ is the easiest way to gear up all the way to 226. Especially a bit later in the season when everyone already accumulated multiple weeks of Vault gear that allowed them to get into the higher stuff.

    Many people say PvP is so easy right now to gear up and that is true if you get boosted. But if you aren't good at PvP and aren't paying for a boost, you will never reach a high enough rating to get an ilvl upgrade from there. Right now the median rating in PvP is below 1400. Half of the playerbase doesn't even get to a rating where they can get their first ilvl upgrade. Less than 10% of the playerbase gets to 1800.
    Compared to that, M+ is super easy to gear up with the weekly chest.

    So what exactly are you advocating for? Best gear for solo content in an MMO? Best gear for easy content? Because "best gear for 'hard' content that you can just wipe through" is already the system we have.


    edit:



    Except that you can just make your own engineering company and get the experience from that. Doesn't work all that well in real life but works pretty damn well in WoW, making your analogy really bad.
    You can’t wipe through a dungeon for hours in pugs because people will leave way before. Even inconsciously people will value the timer in some way.

    Even chill runs are not intended as “two hour runs with 100 deaths and 1000 gold of repair” but they are intended as “if we time it gg, if we don’t by a reasonable amount of time gg either”. All of my chill runs were par + 10 minutes or so, not par + 1 hour.

    I’m not advocating anything I’m saying that people are pointing fingers against rio instead of the reason why rio does exist, that should be the real target of complaints, for those who have to complain.

  2. #622
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    Knock it off with the bickering please. It is possible to discuss the topic without being rude to each other.
    Possible yes. Likely? Not on MMO-Champion sadly.

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauzhi View Post
    I once did a key +14 with some friends that suck at the game, they wanted a fat vault reward.
    200 deaths and 1h50m later we completed the dungeon.
    At the end I said I wouldnt do that again because it was the worse experience I had in wow for many years.
    What is wrong with you?

    You play with your friends for not even 2 hours and its the worst experience in your "wow for many years"?

    I get the comment from a random MMO noob with a few weeks of playtime and no social skills to deal with any MMO, but if you claim you play the game since years, thats just sad.
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  4. #624
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    You can’t wipe through a dungeon for hours in pugs because people will leave way before. Even inconsciously people will value the timer in some way.

    Even chill runs are not intended as “two hour runs with 100 deaths and 1000 gold of repair” but they are intended as “if we time it gg, if we don’t by a reasonable amount of time gg either”. All of my chill runs were par + 10 minutes or so, not par + 1 hour.

    I’m not advocating anything I’m saying that people are pointing fingers against rio instead of the reason why rio does exist, that should be the real target of complaints, for those who have to complain.
    Because those at the top are entitled 'scrubs' who expect everyone to play at the quality they do and if they don't they'll just leave? Ya that seems about right.

  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Past literally means 2-3 seasons ago.

    Simple truth is, it's all on you, and because of that you became toxic. I have bad-at-gaming friends, nobody is expecting to me to boost them.
    I haven't had a single acquaintance who expected me to boost him.
    I have great friends who I met over the years and we still play games together, just not WoW anymore. Some are good, some are bad.

    It is the decisions that game took over the years changed people or attracted wrong crowd. Funny is that you actually confirmed that:


    My guild from MoP wouldn't go far in last 2 expansions. And years have thought me one thing, I'd rather trade all that rat race for nice people to play with as I have enough assholes to deal with in work.

    Im fine with showing people best dungeon runs to better assemble team, but gtfo with numerical scores.

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    Show X best dungeon runs for specific dungeons. Where X > 3

    I made a group for mists, i see in tooltip:
    14/14/14/16/17
    11/13/14/16/17
    1/10/15/15/15
    9/15 (if less than X runs)
    ...

    I dont give a fuq about other dungeons, show me just mists. Anyone who has actually tried to push KR in BfA knows what im talking about.

    and maybe show amount of completed dungeons in time in bracket like (7)
    Ok, how do we know it won’t be done like that (actually rio also doesn’t , you have to manually go to website and check every applicant, that for me is a big no)?

    So actual rio or whatever score plus the history of the dungeon is ok and enough (no joking, just asking)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Because those at the top are entitled 'scrubs' who expect everyone to play at the quality they do and if they don't they'll just leave? Ya that seems about right.
    May be but is this rio’s fault? Can’t this be due to the fact that the elitist feels “forced” to time the dungeon for whatever reason?

    Also I can assure that expectations for +14 I’m actually doing are really low: no mispull, decent dps, don’t die to easy mechanics, interrupt and stun, gg. No one pretends MDI like completion in a 14, this, again, I can assure.

  6. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    May be but is this rio’s fault? Can’t this be due to the fact that the elitist feels “forced” to time the dungeon for whatever reason?
    It's almost like it's Blizzard's fault for making timed content that punishes everyone if they fail one of the best avenues for gear acquisition in the game. And that raider.io only exasperates the problem ten fold. That while there's always been toxic players, the above made the problem so much worse, to the point of it being the norm now. Complete with an entire forum where the majority of active posters support it wholeheartedly.

    No worries though, if you're like the others in this thread, you'll just scream "git gud u trash player, show your stats, whaaaaa!" and ignore that fact completely.

  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    What is wrong with you?

    You play with your friends for not even 2 hours and its the worst experience in your "wow for many years"?

    I get the comment from a random MMO noob with a few weeks of playtime and no social skills to deal with any MMO, but if you claim you play the game since years, thats just sad.
    You can be friends but not enjoy doing certain things with them. I have a friend I've known for 10 years and we get along great together. But I took him kayaking down my favorite creek where I overestimated his skill level. Flipped on every set of rapids making me have to jump out and catch the kayak I let him borrow. Turned a 2 hour fun adventure into a 5 hour stress fest. One of the most miserable experiences of my life.

  8. #628
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    You can be friends but not enjoy doing certain things with them. I have a friend I've known for 10 years and we get along great together. But I took him kayaking down my favorite creek where I overestimated his skill level. Flipped on every set of rapids making me have to jump out and catch the kayak I let him borrow. Turned a 2 hour fun adventure into a 5 hour stress fest. One of the most miserable experiences of my life.
    So instead of helping him learn how to be better you just watched him fail time and time again. What a great friend you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Ok, how do we know it won’t be done like that (actually rio also doesn’t , you have to manually go to website and check every applicant, that for me is a big no)?

    So actual rio or whatever score plus the history of the dungeon is ok and enough (no joking, just asking)?

    - - - Updated - - -


    May be but is this rio’s fault? Can’t this be due to the fact that the elitist feels “forced” to time the dungeon for whatever reason?

    Also I can assure that expectations for +14 I’m actually doing are really low: no mispull, decent dps, don’t die to easy mechanics, interrupt and stun, gg. No one pretends MDI like completion in a 14, this, again, I can assure.
    No one is forced to be a certain way in this game or real life honestly. You choose to be that way. Trying to blame a mechanic or life experience for you being a douche to someone just shows a lack of personal responsibility.

  9. #629
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    What is wrong with you?

    You play with your friends for not even 2 hours and its the worst experience in your "wow for many years"?

    I get the comment from a random MMO noob with a few weeks of playtime and no social skills to deal with any MMO, but if you claim you play the game since years, thats just sad.
    I enjoy playing with my friends, I just dont expect friends to torture me for 2 hours.
    I run their lower keys with no problem all the time.
    No one thought it was a fun experience. Dying 200 times...

  10. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    So instead of helping him learn how to be better you just watched him fail time and time again. What a great friend you are.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No one is forced to be a certain way in this game or real life honestly. You choose to be that way. Trying to blame a mechanic or life experience for you being a douche to someone just shows a lack of personal responsibility.
    I spent the entire 5 hours trying to help him lol. Some ppl can not learn certain things and its my fault for assuming he could.

    Why choose to make a sarcastic remark like that? Shows a lack of personal responsibility. No one forced you to be this way

  11. #631
    Quote Originally Posted by Something Wicked View Post
    It's almost like it's Blizzard's fault for making timed content that punishes everyone if they fail one of the best avenues for gear acquisition in the game. And that raider.io only exasperates the problem ten fold. That while there's always been toxic players, the above made the problem so much worse, to the point of it being the norm now. Complete with an entire forum where the majority of active posters support it wholeheartedly.

    No worries though, if you're like the others in this thread, you'll just scream "git gud u trash player, show your stats, whaaaaa!" and ignore that fact completely.
    I’m not screaming for anything. I’m probably only 2/3 weeks away from KSM (all dungeons at +14 apart from SD) but I’m not a top player, never will and honestly I’m not even interested. I just wanna prove myself I can make it despite being old and having few spare time, no less, no more, I’m not even interested in gear ilvl, for me it’s only a meaning to reach that goal. Stupid goal maybe but everyone plays its own way.

    But I am curious: what is your solution to the issue: “I have (want) to to that in time, how do I find other ppl willing and hopefully capable enough to do so without basing on ppl word only?” Because it’s clear that basing only on ilvl already present in-game does not help at all.
    Last edited by chiddie; 2021-04-20 at 05:06 PM.

  12. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    look, plenty of people will join your group if your score is not abnormally low. And even if it is you'll still get people joining, honestly. If your score is 300 and you try to do a +5, nobody will care. If your score is 300 and you try to do a +13, then plenty of people will care because such a low score with such a high key is very sus.
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    If you post a +10 you will get plenty of ppl queuing. You won't get full 1500 but you'll get a decent variety. I know this because I do it every week on my alt. Most ppl face the +10 and the +15 barrier. If u don't have a group, running your own key is how you get thru it.

    You can even break the cycle if you want and invite low rio ppl.
    Ok so what I get to read between the lines, r.io score doesn't really matter until you are doing what, +13?
    I'm very interested at this point about these thresholds, so 300 r.io doesn't matter if you do +5, but +13 is too much? Ok what about r.io 600, does that get me to 10? And please refrain from thinking about carrying of any sort, just similar people in a group, everyone pulling their own weight.
    What about +15, what kind of r.io score you need in order to complete it? (well more like what r.io score you would personally consider +15 doable?)
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
    Mr. Smith about the cost of Triple-spec
    3k gold right off the bat, about 5 silver a week later.

  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Ok so what I get to read between the lines, r.io score doesn't really matter until you are doing what, +13?
    I'm very interested at this point about these thresholds, so 300 r.io doesn't matter if you do +5, but +13 is too much? Ok what about r.io 600, does that get me to 10? And please refrain from thinking about carrying of any sort, just similar people in a group, everyone pulling their own weight.
    What about +15, what kind of r.io score you need in order to complete it? (well more like what r.io score you would personally consider +15 doable?)
    So you get about 10 (a little higher but let's keep it simple) pts per key level per dungeon. Theres 8 dungeons. So at 500 rio, for real quick math, you could do 500/8 = 62.5. So on average each dungeon gave you 62.5 pts, which means if all dungeons were even, you've done all 8 on +6. At lower levels u can jump up 2 or 3 levels at a time, so at 500 rio, id say you're prob fine qing for an 8, maybe a 9. For safe bet, q for 7s and work your way up.

    I personally don't care to look at rio until my alts are doing like a +7. Then at that point I make sure you at leaat have some history. At +10, I look to see if you a have ~700+ score, a couple plus 10s, and at least an 8 of that dungeon done. At +12, I care that you at least have 1 lower than the current dungeon done. So a +11 of that dungeon, other keys around the same level, and multiple keys run in that bracket. Thays just how I do it.

    For +15, im looking for super smooth runs so honestly at least +15 already done on that dungeon, multiple +15s done total, and at least a 1300 score.

    Idk about doable. Theres some ppl that can time a +10 in that dungeon and instantly do the 15. But im not taking the chance. Most ppl pugging past 12 usually try to do all on 12, then all on 13, then all on 14, to slowly build score to look more attractive in the group finder.

    Ilvl is another metric too. As well as class and spec

  14. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post

    Let's look at this from another viewpoint. You actually are pretty damn good engineer, and but you can't get the job because your engineering.io is not high enough. Why?
    Because you haven't done this engineering work, because in order to get to do this work, you need to have some experience, which you get when you get a job, but you need experience which you don't have since you can't be hired because you don't have the experience for it. You have to get experience, but you will not get experience because you need the experience in the first place. Again, a vicious cycle which you cannot break because of engineering.io.
    You learn by doing, but if you can't do, you can't learn.
    or you work your self up like everyone else, from a +2 engineering workplace to a +3 engineering workplace like in irl you cant get a degree and start @ the biggest IT firma in you country you have to do some shitty jobs and get exp and recommendations.
    I.O BFA Season 3


  15. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Ok so what I get to read between the lines, r.io score doesn't really matter until you are doing what, +13?
    I'm very interested at this point about these thresholds, so 300 r.io doesn't matter if you do +5, but +13 is too much? Ok what about r.io 600, does that get me to 10? And please refrain from thinking about carrying of any sort, just similar people in a group, everyone pulling their own weight.
    What about +15, what kind of r.io score you need in order to complete it? (well more like what r.io score you would personally consider +15 doable?)
    dude, do you understand what the score is??? Like seriously. Where do you think that score comes from? If you have done dungeons on +5 then you will have a score of X and that score of X is good enough to let you into dungeons in the range of 7-9, which then will give you a score of Y, which is good enough to let you into 10-12, which will give you a score of Z...

    Don't focus on the score number. Focus on the dungeon key levels and just do steady upgrades of 1-3 key levels.

  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    But I am curious: what is your solution to the issue: “I have (want) to to that in time, how do I find other ppl willing and hopefully capable enough to do so without basing on ppl word only?” Because it’s clear that basing only on ilvl already present in-game does not help at all.
    Get rid of the timers, get rid of the automatic key reduction (but have an option so you can opt to do so), and get rid of the ridiculous "you can't invite anyone to replace anyone who left" stipulation. Then just make the esport aspects of it a series of achievements that they should have been from the start. Aka, turn it from negative reinforcement to positive reinforcement.

    The vast majority of the toxicity melts away instantly. Still a lot there, but it would be almost entirely douche-related rather than game-justified.

  17. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Ok so what I get to read between the lines, r.io score doesn't really matter until you are doing what, +13?
    I'm very interested at this point about these thresholds, so 300 r.io doesn't matter if you do +5, but +13 is too much? Ok what about r.io 600, does that get me to 10? And please refrain from thinking about carrying of any sort, just similar people in a group, everyone pulling their own weight.
    What about +15, what kind of r.io score you need in order to complete it? (well more like what r.io score you would personally consider +15 doable?)
    +15 is “complex”. It’s probably the most complex key regarding rio acceptance. If at 14 anyone with a proper rio (roughly 1050 to 1180) will be generally accepted, probably +15 per se is where absurd requests begins and you’ll have to really start pushing your own key.

    You fall in the spiral “I know you could make it because you have all 14 but I’ll pick up someone that has already done some 15 just to be “more sure”” and it’ll be probably tough to enter groups regardless the role.

    I’m only assuming of course but “spying” some +15 in lfg I got this idea.

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Something Wicked View Post
    Get rid of the timers, get rid of the automatic key reduction (but have an option so you can opt to do so), and get rid of the ridiculous "you can't invite anyone to replace anyone who left" stipulation. Then just make the esport aspects of it a series of achievements that they should have been from the start. Aka, turn it from negative reinforcement to positive reinforcement.

    The vast majority of the toxicity melts away instantly. Still a lot there, but it would be almost entirely douche-related rather than game-justified.
    As soon as you get rid of the timer, people will just cc everything and pull mobs one by one. And specs without any kind of cc won't be picked.

  19. #639
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    As soon as you get rid of the timer, people will just cc everything and pull mobs one by one. And specs without any kind of cc won't be picked.
    Nice blog post.

  20. #640
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    It doesn't. It literally doesn't show best X of people for SPECIFIC dungeon. It provides score which people only look at, at least most people. You can check on their website but you can't check in that tooltip. Again, you are wrong, read what I wrote, word by word.


    And even if that info would be on tooltip, people would be still looking at score because its "easy to understand". While being mostly irrelevant,antisocial and turning M+ into rat race.
    This is just plain embarrassing. The tooltip gives you the total score, your best dungeon, your best of the chosen dungeon, the number of dungeons done in a given difficulty bracket, and the score on your designated main.

    It sounds like you only look at score and have completely missed the other info in the tooltip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Dude I know what i shows, been using it a lot. Doesn't show what I said I am interested in.

    - - - Updated - - -



    learn to read.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Read my comments again.


    Since some people have troubles with reading with comprehension.

    I am not interested in BEST dungeon. I am not interested in OTHER dungeons.

    I am interested in showing best X dungeon runs for a SPECIFIC dungeon.

    Wanna play mists, so I want to see their best runs agains THIS DUNGEON. I don't care for numerical score.
    I care that one dude played 5 times mists with 15/15/15/15/16
    And the other guy did 1/2/3/4/17

    Because even if the second guy could have higher score, i'd rather take someone who has done THIS SPECIFIC DUNGEON more times on higher key.
    Nice movement of the goalposts. First it was best of a specific dungeon, now it's the history of a specific dungeon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    As a healer I would instead just love to see average dps for appliers, for me it’s far more important than the number or the level of completed runs, I would take a 1000 rio dude with 4.5k dps over a 1300 rio dude with 3.5k dps anytime.

    - - - Updated - - -


    This is also due to the fact that gameplay is really not THAT exciting for tanks and in a lesser extent healers so if you play solo and wanna push and you are non meta dps and you can’t afford long sessions, it just takes ages and you give up and start whining.
    And that's how you get a bunch of guys standing in fire. Gratz. You just killed your key.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

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