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  1. #921
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    well, yeah, so that's what I mean. We won't know that unless we will know what rio everyone was, what covenants, what comp, what dungeon and what pull with what CDs were available. Doing massive first pull in NW is pretty common i.e. but if people can't interrupt - you are screwed.
    I did NW 18 recently with a tank with 1700 io that did big pulls all went smooth.
    Went to +16 after that with a tank with 2k io that skiped all packs on the side after the bridge. Went ahead of the group beetween the 3 elite pack and the big skelly guy and half the group couldnt pass without agroing after him. Wipe.
    The best part was when he came back through the side pulling the groups we should have cleared after the bridge.

    Anyway. If the guy have no spatial awareness I guess he got carried by his "big d... Dps friends to 2k IO.

    People like to blame dps many times, but they can carry many partys aswell.

  2. #922
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    But hey, people don't look for solutions. Those who do - they find them because it's certainly not super secret. On the other hand complainers will find a problem for every solution
    QFT
    {10char}

  3. #923
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    If I understand you correct then you are saying that some/few/a lot of people pick other people that they want to play with in a "wrong way".
    So how do you suggest to "fix" this without denying people the freedom to pick whom they play with?
    Why not allow both? Even D3 allows both. People who want to only invite those who grossly overgear can and those who want to match make with those similar can, whether pending they complete some challenge or not.

    Everyone wins.

  4. #924
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Again, you use the term "Game design", when its something that isnt even in the game keeping you out because other people use it wrongly and you have fallen into the trap, which is why i keep saying you are in the cesspool and refuse to improve.

    Lets start with reeducating.

    1)M+ was not introduced to be pugged.

    2)Yes, better players pugged them so community copied them.

    3)The 99% isnt supposed to pug, end of story.

    4)You arent allowed to say 3, so lets rephrase it, "Its only natural the lower skilled 99% has problems pugging".

    5)Raider.io was created because Blizzard freebie gear systems are ruining the 1% pugging world after some time has passed into the active patch cycle.

    6)1% uses it correctly, 99% uses it to block each other from progressing.

    7)99% blames the 1% because as always the last 17 years, they are clueless about what is going on.

    Solution? Find a god damn community that accepts your skill level and time commitment.
    Point 2 is more “people who can play X hours a day”. I am no pro player by any meaning but if I could play that much time I would have probably got KSM 2-3 months ago like some of my ex guildies that then burned out and barely logged since they got the achi. Again, commitment is not a skill. You have a lot of spare time or you don’t, you have no control over that.

    KSM is not rocket science, if you get to all 14 in time there’s no reason you can’t do a 15.

    But again I’m not blaming the 1%, I’m only wondering if there can be something else to get to that 1% without pushing your keys or having the luxury to afford long gaming sessions.

    Edit: also some nice communities names instead of “find a community” would be appreciated, I tried many of them but they were all almost dead.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Why not allow both? Even D3 allows both. People who want to only invite those who grossly overgear can and those who want to match make with those similar can, whether pending they complete some challenge or not.

    Everyone wins.
    Because it would not work. After a certain M+ level no tanks with a working brain would ever choose the automated mm system, thus resulting in endless queues for everyone.

    This is not Diablo 3 where party composition does not matter or matters very little.
    Last edited by chiddie; 2021-05-04 at 08:27 PM.

  5. #925
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Point 2 is more “people who can play X hours a day”. I am no pro player by any meaning but if I could play that much time I would have probably got KSM 2-3 months ago like some of my ex guildies that then burned out and barely logged since they got the achi. Again, commitment is not a skill. You have a lot of spare time or you don’t, you have no control over that.

    KSM is not rocket science, if you get to all 14 in time there’s no reason you can’t do a 15.

    But again I’m not blaming the 1%, I’m only wondering if there can be something else to get to that 1% without pushing your keys or having the luxury to afford long gaming sessions.

    Edit: also some nice communities names instead of “find a community” would be appreciated, I tried many of them but they were all almost dead.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Because it would not work. After a certain M+ level no tanks with a working brain would ever choose the automated mm system, thus resulting in endless queues for everyone.

    This is not Diablo 3 where party composition does not matter or matters very little.
    That’s assuming though. I’m a tank and I’d use it to avoid poopheads who can’t seem to do a dungeon without calling someone something derogatory as if it’s mandatory.

    Still, it’s just an idea. No idea or system will be perfect. Some think Rio is and plenty have explained why it’s not. Improvement is not a bad thing.

  6. #926
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    That’s assuming though. I’m a tank and I’d use it to avoid poopheads who can’t seem to do a dungeon without calling someone something derogatory as if it’s mandatory.

    Still, it’s just an idea. No idea or system will be perfect. Some think Rio is and plenty have explained why it’s not. Improvement is not a bad thing.
    Yeh of course I don’t have Palantir, it’s just my 2 cents.

    I would also like to see it, more options is better than less options but I don’t think we will, at least for this expansion.

  7. #927
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Actually, that’s not true. Many of the Rio people have used words synonymous with skill to tell someone why they’re not invited.

    Both sides are just as guilty.
    There is correlation with skill and high rio, so you can make safe assumptions, but it's not equivalency.

    Edit: Also I wouldn't put a skill value on anything below 1.7k I think.
    for 1.7k I would expect a person to know basic skips and pulls, what to interrupt and they can play their class fairly ok, but that's an assumption. You can get a 1.8k player who dies to all the stuff and does like 5k dps overall but it's rather rare, as this rio players are way more often than not, higher skill players. Still, I would not invite a 1.8k score player to a +18 DoS if his best was +15, as I am not questioning skill, I am questioning experience.
    Last edited by erifwodahs; 2021-05-04 at 10:19 PM.

  8. #928
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    There is correlation with skill and high rio, so you can make safe assumptions, but it's not equivalency.

    Edit: Also I wouldn't put a skill value on anything below 1.7k I think.
    for 1.7k I would expect a person to know basic skips and pulls, what to interrupt and they can play their class fairly ok, but that's an assumption. You can get a 1.8k player who dies to all the stuff and does like 5k dps overall but it's rather rare, as this rio players are way more often than not, higher skill players. Still, I would not invite a 1.8k score player to a +18 DoS if his best was +15, as I am not questioning skill, I am questioning experience.
    I can see a correlation but with so many buying their scores, it’s flawed. Still it’s all we have and even I use it since we have nothing better. Doesn’t mean people can’t want better. I’m just one of the few in the Rio community who are not so salty and opposed to casuals progressing since it seems so taboo.

  9. #929
    imo this will happen: ppl totally fuck up this whole system by just buying 1-2 tokens for reallife money and trade it into gold. with this gold they go to the next best booster and boost their score. then they join your dungeon and fuck up your group by not having the slightest clue whats going on, instead the other guy/alt knowing what he does, with lower score.

    and exactly thats the plan of ATVI Blizz. by evolving a game design that heavily supports their smart cash grab system (token). because every token ever passes the AH is a profit of 7-9 bugs for free for Blizz, by doing nothing. most ppl not even realizing this fact or why.

    tin foil hat you say? you can simple check the proof by yourself: go ingame and look how often you see „WTS“ in pug tool and compare it to the past. when you develop such systems (i did this too, as a software developer), you design the game, the „meta“ aspects like reward systems etc. to feed your smart cash grab system. i.e. your m+ ranks/achievements or conquest ranks (i.e. Combatant) you must have, to be able to higher upgrade your gear, SOLELY exists for the reason that ppl let them carry by booster grps. and this means you need gold. and this means you buy a token. and this means Blizz is getting a lot of money for free, by doing nothing and just watching the money flow of an automatic system. thats how smart cash grab systems works. but most ppl do not understand anything of what i am saying here, or how multibillion dollar companies work.

    long story short: your beloved game sucks more and more while Blizzard is milking the most out of it.

  10. #930
    The Lightbringer msdos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    thats how smart cash grab systems works. but most ppl do not understand anything of what i am saying here, or how multibillion dollar companies work.

    long story short: your beloved game sucks more and more while Blizzard is milking the most out of it.
    I talked about this in another thread. Blizzard is taking advantage of everything. The less content they have to design, the more advantage they've taken. People are aware of it, they just aren't willing to buy in for whatever personal barrier they have going on.

  11. #931
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    There’s no right or wrong. There’s the normal path and the super-comfortable path.

    Unfortunately if you keep playing you will be slowly but steadily redirected to the super-comfortable path, where you need to show your 4 masters for a job that requires high school max.

    Maybe it’s not wrong but from a certain pov it’s not right either.
    I don't get what you mean by the "normal" and "super-comfortable" path.
    Either people are allowed 100% freedom to pick whom they play with, the system we have now, or people should be limited in their ability to pick whom they play with.
    And WoW differs in one substantial way from the job market: You have the exact same possibilities to start up your own business (a group) as everybody else. Be your own boss and "hire" people based on your own standards. Compete and prosper!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Why not allow both? Even D3 allows both. People who want to only invite those who grossly overgear can and those who want to match make with those similar can, whether pending they complete some challenge or not.

    Everyone wins.
    But we have this system now!
    Raider.io specifically shows other people your experience with the content that you want to find other people to do.
    Experience in single-player content, as in D3, is considerable more irrelevant compared to Raider.io as it only shows your experience in single-player content, whereas Raider.io shows your experience in doing relevant group content.

    So people now can use a very useful tool, raider.io, to filter out entitled players or they can make their own group based on whatever other criteria they want: They can do it based on ilvl, name, server or whatever other criteria they want.

    I don't care if someone is able to do some single-player challenge, I want to know if someone is able to interact and overcome group content with other people, because M+ tests your ability to do exact that and not your ability to do single-player "challenges". And that is exactly what raider.io helps you to know.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    imo this will happen: ppl totally fuck up this whole system by just buying 1-2 tokens for reallife money and trade it into gold. with this gold they go to the next best booster and boost their score. then they join your dungeon and fuck up your group by not having the slightest clue whats going on, instead the other guy/alt knowing what he does, with lower score.
    It is very easy to spot if someone has bought one of each dungeon on 15+.
    Furthermore such people don't run M+ after they have bought their achievement. People buy M+ boosts not to play more M+, but in order not to play M+.

    The odds of you running in to someone who has bought his score is absurdly low, whereas if you don't use the tools available for you to filter out entitled players, then you could get your key busted.
    The "dangerous" people for your key aren't those that buy boosts, but the entitled players that think that they have a right to be carried by you.

  12. #932
    can someone take their own addon and add the secondary effect of breaking this crap?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    wE doNt kNoW wHat PlAyeRs wAnT FoR CHarACteR CrEaTioN MOdelS

  13. #933
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    I don't get what you mean by the "normal" and "super-comfortable" path.
    Either people are allowed 100% freedom to pick whom they play with, the system we have now, or people should be limited in their ability to pick whom they play with.
    And WoW differs in one substantial way from the job market: You have the exact same possibilities to start up your own business (a group) as everybody else. Be your own boss and "hire" people based on your own standards. Compete and prosper!

    - - - Updated - - -



    But we have this system now!
    Raider.io specifically shows other people your experience with the content that you want to find other people to do.
    Experience in single-player content, as in D3, is considerable more irrelevant compared to Raider.io as it only shows your experience in single-player content, whereas Raider.io shows your experience in doing relevant group content.

    So people now can use a very useful tool, raider.io, to filter out entitled players or they can make their own group based on whatever other criteria they want: They can do it based on ilvl, name, server or whatever other criteria they want.

    I don't care if someone is able to do some single-player challenge, I want to know if someone is able to interact and overcome group content with other people, because M+ tests your ability to do exact that and not your ability to do single-player "challenges". And that is exactly what raider.io helps you to know.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It is very easy to spot if someone has bought one of each dungeon on 15+.
    Furthermore such people don't run M+ after they have bought their achievement. People buy M+ boosts not to play more M+, but in order not to play M+.

    The odds of you running in to someone who has bought his score is absurdly low, whereas if you don't use the tools available for you to filter out entitled players, then you could get your key busted.
    The "dangerous" people for your key aren't those that buy boosts, but the entitled players that think that they have a right to be carried by you.
    Dude?

    People are 100% picking whoever they want I’m only saying that past a certain point the ones they want are always the overqualified ones for no reason apart from wanting to trivialize the content by bruteforcing it.

    AGAIN it’s not my interest arguing if this is right or wrong, I’m simply saying it’s like this. Pretend that people have already done that 15 to enter that 15 in a step by step mechanism is like pretending to see my graduation when I apply for a job that does not require any. You CAN ask, but if it becomes a mandatory criterium something in your mind is going horribly wrong.

    But you are the dude saying that FFIV is toxic because it does not allow you to be an elitist that cares only about performance so the concept may be a little more difficult to comprehend.

  14. #934
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    AGAIN it’s not my interest arguing if this is right or wrong, I’m simply saying it’s like this. Pretend that people have already done that 15 to enter that 15 in a step by step mechanism is like pretending to see my graduation when I apply for a job that does not require any. You CAN ask, but if it becomes a mandatory criterium something in your mind is going horribly wrong.
    But you are arguing that it is wrong . I mean you just wrote: "but if it becomes a mandatory criterium something in your mind is going horribly wrong"

    And I will repeat again that it can never become a mandatory criterium as everybody has the equal right and possibility to make a group based on whatever criteria that person wants.
    It is 100% a you-problem if you apply to a key which key-holder is using criteria that you don't like.
    You have 100% the exact same rights/possibilities as that person to make your own group and pick people on the criteria that you find right.

    If someone refuses to take charge of their own in-game experience and that someone 100% relies on being led by other people then that someone gets the experience he gets, but if that someone would man up and take charge of his own in-game experience and start to lead then that someone and maybe others like himself would get a completely different in-game experience.

    Blizzard has since day 1 of WoW given the players 100% free reins in how they make their groups and whom they play with. Nothing has changed in that regard. Some people use that freedom to shape their in-game experience, others don't.

  15. #935
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    imo this will happen: ppl totally fuck up this whole system by just buying 1-2 tokens for reallife money and trade it into gold. with this gold they go to the next best booster and boost their score. then they join your dungeon and fuck up your group by not having the slightest clue whats going on, instead the other guy/alt knowing what he does, with lower score.

    and exactly thats the plan of ATVI Blizz. by evolving a game design that heavily supports their smart cash grab system (token). because every token ever passes the AH is a profit of 7-9 bugs for free for Blizz, by doing nothing. most ppl not even realizing this fact or why.

    tin foil hat you say? you can simple check the proof by yourself: go ingame and look how often you see „WTS“ in pug tool and compare it to the past. when you develop such systems (i did this too, as a software developer), you design the game, the „meta“ aspects like reward systems etc. to feed your smart cash grab system. i.e. your m+ ranks/achievements or conquest ranks (i.e. Combatant) you must have, to be able to higher upgrade your gear, SOLELY exists for the reason that ppl let them carry by booster grps. and this means you need gold. and this means you buy a token. and this means Blizz is getting a lot of money for free, by doing nothing and just watching the money flow of an automatic system. thats how smart cash grab systems works. but most ppl do not understand anything of what i am saying here, or how multibillion dollar companies work.

    long story short: your beloved game sucks more and more while Blizzard is milking the most out of it.
    Fortunately, it’s very easy to spot boosted players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I can see a correlation but with so many buying their scores, it’s flawed. Still it’s all we have and even I use it since we have nothing better. Doesn’t mean people can’t want better. I’m just one of the few in the Rio community who are not so salty and opposed to casuals progressing since it seems so taboo.
    I agree. The rio system is not perfect at all. However for me it seems to work sufficiently enough. I think it’s very easy to spot boosted players and in the majority of cases I experience: the higher the score, the better the player. Of course there are exceptions to the rule.

  16. #936
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    But you are arguing that it is wrong . I mean you just wrote: "but if it becomes a mandatory criterium something in your mind is going horribly wrong"

    And I will repeat again that it can never become a mandatory criterium as everybody has the equal right and possibility to make a group based on whatever criteria that person wants.
    It is 100% a you-problem if you apply to a key which key-holder is using criteria that you don't like.
    You have 100% the exact same rights/possibilities as that person to make your own group and pick people on the criteria that you find right.

    If someone refuses to take charge of their own in-game experience and that someone 100% relies on being led by other people then that someone gets the experience he gets, but if that someone would man up and take charge of his own in-game experience and start to lead then that someone and maybe others like himself would get a completely different in-game experience.

    Blizzard has since day 1 of WoW given the players 100% free reins in how they make their groups and whom they play with. Nothing has changed in that regard. Some people use that freedom to shape their in-game experience, others don't.
    In a real work scenario it is indeed horribly wrong.

    In this specific game scenario it’s not wrong per se but I find it absurd, especially if all the players jump in the bandwagon.

    The situation is even hotter because you can’t even pinpoint specific dungeons at your desired level but you have to deal with random dungeons at a random level.

    You’re only left with the usual “push your own key” that is barely better than nothing similarly as rio itself.

    Still have to get what’s wrong in simply desiring to be invited in a 15 having all 14 in time without having to rely on my key only.
    Last edited by chiddie; 2021-05-05 at 06:42 AM.

  17. #937
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Yeah. I don't want to play with boosted players who don't have any legitimate experience either, but I think there's way too much "but the boosts ruin it!" talk considering that a half second of effort can easily avoid encountering that scenario. The addon lists the number of keys a player has done in each range right in the tooltip; you don't even have to go to the website. It doesn't take rocket scientist to figure out that the guy with exactly eight 15s and a couple baby keys might have purchased his KSM.

    I mean, okay yeah, if you're only looking at the overall score and literally nothing else you're going risk getting some awful people in your runs, but who actually does that? I mean, I don't think you could even look at the score without seeing the number of keys listed right below it if you tried. Being worried about boosted players just seems like a lot of hand-wringing for nothing.

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  18. #938
    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    What could possibly go wrong?
    Nothing. People who are REALLY elitist weren't going to invite you if your raider.io didn't show up before. Now people who are good but don't have the addon or have their data set to private can actually get invited.

  19. #939
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I can see a correlation but with so many buying their scores, it’s flawed. Still it’s all we have and even I use it since we have nothing better. Doesn’t mean people can’t want better. I’m just one of the few in the Rio community who are not so salty and opposed to casuals progressing since it seems so taboo.
    Again, there are solutions for people, but most of them don't want solutions, because those who want to play m+ - they manage it quite easy. People don't look for solutions, they look for problems which they can blame for their inability to do something about their problems. Hell, some of those people post here so much they could have joined 5 M+ communities/guilds.

    High end rio community does not care about casuals doing m+ and progressing, what we care about is them coming here and blaming their pet death on RIO. And rio is something why are still playing this game that's why there is so much opposition. It's not that there is some rio illuminati who keeps casuals from "climbing".

    Would I be opposed to some sort of proving grounds to be able to use matchmaking for m+? No. Crack on, but you have to understand how much toxicity and blame game it would have. Just let others keep rio and manual matchmaking and we would never have any reason to interact and mix.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    You’re only left with the usual “push your own key” that is barely better than nothing similarly as rio itself.

    Still have to get what’s wrong in simply desiring to be invited in a 15 having all 14 in time without having to rely on my key only.
    Well, you can join a guild or a community. Or do 14s and add people who want to push to 15 with you. Pushing your own key solo is not only option.

    I am still very confused about you needing any 15 and for some reason being hesitant to do your own key - you literally can invite same overqualified players or you can invite players who have done 14s, but I am sure you will provide me a reason why you can't do that.

  20. #940
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Still have to get what’s wrong in simply desiring to be invited in a 15 having all 14 in time without having to rely on my key only.
    There is nothing wrong per se in feeling entitled to be invited to other people's keys based on your own personal criteria instead of the criteria of the person who holds the key. Just as there is nothing wrong per se to not want to play with people that feel that they are entitled to play with you.

    But it is a 100% waste of your time to harbour such feelings as people who have the minimum of will that it requires to list their own keys also have the minimum of will to stand by their own criteria when they make a group.
    As long as you rely on other people to lead you then you have to accept the rules put up by the leaders. It goes for WoW and any other human activity.

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