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  1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunderella View Post
    Meaningless unless they plan on using that score for some kind of matchmaking.
    Soloque pog

  2. #582
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I am sorry but even after all these pages I can’t understand what exactly the issue with the score is.
    From my point of view, there is nothing wrong with scores and different methods of measurements but keep reading!
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    It helps a little to choose people who are in theory capable of do the content at your desired level of difficulty. Again, why is this bad?
    This is where I see the "problem". While you say it helps a little, in fact it's the only thing the average joe is looking at. I see people saying r.io is just a part of their measurement of someone's capability, and they also take in account their social skills, capability to learn from mistakes etcetc
    BUT, we are talking about the average joe, not that guy who measures peoples r.io, their gear, talents, social skills, willingness to learn - but the average joe who doesn't care about anything else but the score.
    So where does this lead? It ultimately leads to a situation where people start to look at a certain threshold of this score, while the score itself not tied to certain circumstances.
    (example: You absolutely cannot do mythic, let's say +10, if your score is lower than 1000 because there is a dps/hps check which you cannot pass with current gear/skill you have)
    This is not the case in wow atm, and while I do not have any statistics on it, I'm quite sure you can run pretty high keys with somewhat bad gear when you are a skilled player, and your group is a solid group where everyone pulls their own weight.
    So I see this magic number of 1500, this seems to be a threshold where your chances of getting an invite to +1 and upward are increased a lot. You start to see the issue? It leads to gameplay where you don't really do stuff in natural order, but instead you have learn and do first, before you even get to learn and start
    (Example: You need to complete mythic +10, before you are invited to mythic +10, but you can't get into +10 because you haven't done +10, and in order to get into +10, you need to complete +10) It's a vicious cycle which doesn't make any sense when your chances of even proving yourself worthy in the first place are down to 0 due to a scoring system which doesn't take in account the fact that every group is made of 5 people, and you are doing roughly 20% of the whole effort.
    (Fine, sometimes there are situations where you carry or get carried, but like I said earlier, let's forget this marginality for a moment)

    And while I understand completely the fact that people want smooth runs, and of course they want the best possible group - this scoring system is IMO not ideal.
    Why? Because it doesn't take lots of things into account, like how good are you in the game, do you learn from mistakes, can you interrupt and all the thousand other super small nyances which make huge difference in the end.
    (example: First guy is 2400 r.io, as a DH he leaps about the dungeon and while the holy paladin struggles to stay along, the DH dies and says ".|.." and leaves. Key ruined)
    (example2: This guy has 300 r.io. He tells everyone he hasn't healed so high dungeon before and apologizes for their possible mistakes beforehand, tank takes it easy, key finished with +1)
    I know these examples are pretty edgy, but you propably get the point here. And sure, it can also be other way around, this 300 r.io guy is a fuckhead and ruins everything while the 2.4k guy is the chillest and coolest guy ever - Is it because of the score, or just their personality? I think the majority wants to say it's their personality, but remember, the average joe is only interested in the score itself, so this guy must be a good guy because he has high score.

    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    If a good job requires engineering skills and I can barely do 2+2 why should I be upset upon being declined?
    Let's look at this from another viewpoint. You actually are pretty damn good engineer, and but you can't get the job because your engineering.io is not high enough. Why?
    Because you haven't done this engineering work, because in order to get to do this work, you need to have some experience, which you get when you get a job, but you need experience which you don't have since you can't be hired because you don't have the experience for it. You have to get experience, but you will not get experience because you need the experience in the first place. Again, a vicious cycle which you cannot break because of engineering.io.
    You learn by doing, but if you can't do, you can't learn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
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  3. #583
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    People are looking at the finger instead of at what the finger points. Rio does exists because of GEAR GATED UPON TIMED CONTENT THAT CANT BE SOLOED.

    They are fighting the cure, not the cause.
    But gear is not gated behind a timer. You can wipe through a dungeon for hours and as long as you beat it somehow, you will get a weekly reward from it. M+ is the easiest way to gear up all the way to 226. Especially a bit later in the season when everyone already accumulated multiple weeks of Vault gear that allowed them to get into the higher stuff.

    Many people say PvP is so easy right now to gear up and that is true if you get boosted. But if you aren't good at PvP and aren't paying for a boost, you will never reach a high enough rating to get an ilvl upgrade from there. Right now the median rating in PvP is below 1400. Half of the playerbase doesn't even get to a rating where they can get their first ilvl upgrade. Less than 10% of the playerbase gets to 1800.
    Compared to that, M+ is super easy to gear up with the weekly chest.

    So what exactly are you advocating for? Best gear for solo content in an MMO? Best gear for easy content? Because "best gear for 'hard' content that you can just wipe through" is already the system we have.


    edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Let's look at this from another viewpoint. You actually are pretty damn good engineer, and but you can't get the job because your engineering.io is not high enough. Why?
    Because you haven't done this engineering work, because in order to get to do this work, you need to have some experience, which you get when you get a job, but you need experience which you don't have since you can't be hired because you don't have the experience for it. You have to get experience, but you will not get experience because you need the experience in the first place. Again, a vicious cycle which you cannot break because of engineering.io.
    You learn by doing, but if you can't do, you can't learn.
    Except that you can just make your own engineering company and get the experience from that. Doesn't work all that well in real life but works pretty damn well in WoW, making your analogy really bad.
    Last edited by Wuusah; 2021-04-20 at 01:49 PM.

  4. #584
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    From my point of view, there is nothing wrong with scores and different methods of measurements but keep reading!

    This is where I see the "problem". While you say it helps a little, in fact it's the only thing the average joe is looking at. I see people saying r.io is just a part of their measurement of someone's capability, and they also take in account their social skills, capability to learn from mistakes etcetc
    BUT, we are talking about the average joe, not that guy who measures peoples r.io, their gear, talents, social skills, willingness to learn - but the average joe who doesn't care about anything else but the score.
    So where does this lead? It ultimately leads to a situation where people start to look at a certain threshold of this score, while the score itself not tied to certain circumstances.
    (example: You absolutely cannot do mythic, let's say +10, if your score is lower than 1000 because there is a dps/hps check which you cannot pass with current gear/skill you have)
    This is not the case in wow atm, and while I do not have any statistics on it, I'm quite sure you can run pretty high keys with somewhat bad gear when you are a skilled player, and your group is a solid group where everyone pulls their own weight.
    So I see this magic number of 1500, this seems to be a threshold where your chances of getting an invite to +1 and upward are increased a lot. You start to see the issue? It leads to gameplay where you don't really do stuff in natural order, but instead you have learn and do first, before you even get to learn and start
    (Example: You need to complete mythic +10, before you are invited to mythic +10, but you can't get into +10 because you haven't done +10, and in order to get into +10, you need to complete +10) It's a vicious cycle which doesn't make any sense when your chances of even proving yourself worthy in the first place are down to 0 due to a scoring system which doesn't take in account the fact that every group is made of 5 people, and you are doing roughly 20% of the whole effort.
    (Fine, sometimes there are situations where you carry or get carried, but like I said earlier, let's forget this marginality for a moment)

    And while I understand completely the fact that people want smooth runs, and of course they want the best possible group - this scoring system is IMO not ideal.
    Why? Because it doesn't take lots of things into account, like how good are you in the game, do you learn from mistakes, can you interrupt and all the thousand other super small nyances which make huge difference in the end.
    (example: First guy is 2400 r.io, as a DH he leaps about the dungeon and while the holy paladin struggles to stay along, the DH dies and says ".|.." and leaves. Key ruined)
    (example2: This guy has 300 r.io. He tells everyone he hasn't healed so high dungeon before and apologizes for their possible mistakes beforehand, tank takes it easy, key finished with +1)
    I know these examples are pretty edgy, but you propably get the point here. And sure, it can also be other way around, this 300 r.io guy is a fuckhead and ruins everything while the 2.4k guy is the chillest and coolest guy ever - Is it because of the score, or just their personality? I think the majority wants to say it's their personality, but remember, the average joe is only interested in the score itself, so this guy must be a good guy because he has high score.


    Let's look at this from another viewpoint. You actually are pretty damn good engineer, and but you can't get the job because your engineering.io is not high enough. Why?
    Because you haven't done this engineering work, because in order to get to do this work, you need to have some experience, which you get when you get a job, but you need experience which you don't have since you can't be hired because you don't have the experience for it. You have to get experience, but you will not get experience because you need the experience in the first place. Again, a vicious cycle which you cannot break because of engineering.io.
    You learn by doing, but if you can't do, you can't learn.
    All of this is not a problem because you have your own key. Can't get into a +10 because you haven't done a +10? Build your own key to +10 and do it.

    The engineering job analogy does not apply. In wow, you can create the engineering job yourself to get the experience. With your own key

  5. #585
    Bloodsail Admiral m4xc4v413r4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    Not really analogous. Item level (and corresponding item budget) existed before gearscore, you just had to enable advanced tooltips to see it. Although the addon certainly made people more hyperaware of it.
    Without addons there was no way to show item level with in-game settings before 3.2

  6. #586
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    Except that you can just make your own engineering company and get the experience from that. Doesn't work all that well in real life but works pretty damn well in WoW, making your analogy really bad.
    Of course, and if that doesn't appeal you you can just quit the game. Sure thing, you are absolutely correct.
    But what you're missing here, is that people don't only look at the score when they invite people, they also check what groups they join. So if your score is 300, no one is going to join despite the fact that you can pull your own weight.
    But hey you can quit the game, no problem x)

    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    All of this is not a problem because you have your own key. Can't get into a +10 because you haven't done a +10? Build your own key to +10 and do it.

    The engineering job analogy does not apply. In wow, you can create the engineering job yourself to get the experience. With your own key
    But who would join in a group when their r.io or whatever score you use, is not high enough? It's been made quite clear people don't pug mythics because pug=bad, and if they do, they make sure the key they join is someone with high r.io because chances of succeeding skyrocket. And it's fine, everyone can do their own group and join whatever group they want, but when you make a number out of a player which in the end doesn't give that much insight of the player's capability, there is a problem.
    Last edited by Cuppy; 2021-04-20 at 02:35 PM. Reason: Another reply
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
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  7. #587
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Of course, and if that doesn't appeal you you can just quit the game. Sure thing, you are absolutely correct.
    But what you're missing here, is that people don't only look at the score when they invite people, they also check what groups they join. So if your score is 300, no one is going to join despite the fact that you can pull your own weight.
    But hey you can quit the game, no problem x)


    But who would join in a group when their r.io or whatever score you use, is not high enough? It's been made quite clear people don't pug mythics because pug=bad, and if they do, they make sure the key they join is someone with high r.io because chances of succeeding skyrocket. And it's fine, everyone can do their own group and join whatever group they want, but when you make a number out of a player which in the end doesn't give that much insight of the player's capability, there is a problem.
    look, plenty of people will join your group if your score is not abnormally low. And even if it is you'll still get people joining, honestly. If your score is 300 and you try to do a +5, nobody will care. If your score is 300 and you try to do a +13, then plenty of people will care because such a low score with such a high key is very sus.

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Of course, and if that doesn't appeal you you can just quit the game. Sure thing, you are absolutely correct.
    But what you're missing here, is that people don't only look at the score when they invite people, they also check what groups they join. So if your score is 300, no one is going to join despite the fact that you can pull your own weight.
    But hey you can quit the game, no problem x)


    But who would join in a group when their r.io or whatever score you use, is not high enough? It's been made quite clear people don't pug mythics because pug=bad, and if they do, they make sure the key they join is someone with high r.io because chances of succeeding skyrocket. And it's fine, everyone can do their own group and join whatever group they want, but when you make a number out of a player which in the end doesn't give that much insight of the player's capability, there is a problem.
    If you post a +10 you will get plenty of ppl queuing. You won't get full 1500 but you'll get a decent variety. I know this because I do it every week on my alt. Most ppl face the +10 and the +15 barrier. If u don't have a group, running your own key is how you get thru it.

    You can even break the cycle if you want and invite low rio ppl.

  9. #589
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    So you think it is the m+ or the timer that makes the toxicity ?
    Honestly, it's the lack of accountability. Players are toxic because they can afford to be so with zero repercussions. Icy veins even had an article about a certain venthyr warrior from Draenor EU that purposely ruins M+ keys. At best the r.io/M+ score shows experience in the relevant dungeon but that doesn't really do anything about toxic players from the entire spectrum of players (from low to high end)


    And the biggest problem I see with in-game M+ score is that it's reductive of what the r.io team has put together. It's unlikely that blizzard will have a robust system like the r.io addon that shows not just a score but also additional details (i.e. Highest timed dungeon, No. of dungeons done in time in certain brackets). What I fear is that it's just going to have the base level of r.io, a score computed from a similar formula that r.io uses but no additional details.

    It's the difference between:

    Player A Player B
    M+ score 1350 1308

    versus this:

    Player A Player B
    r.io score 1350 1308
    Highest Dungeon done in Time 15+ 15+
    Dungeon done in Time (15+ backet) 10 30
    ---
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  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    But gear is not gated behind a timer. You can wipe through a dungeon for hours and as long as you beat it somehow, you will get a weekly reward from it. M+ is the easiest way to gear up all the way to 226. Especially a bit later in the season when everyone already accumulated multiple weeks of Vault gear that allowed them to get into the higher stuff.

    Many people say PvP is so easy right now to gear up and that is true if you get boosted. But if you aren't good at PvP and aren't paying for a boost, you will never reach a high enough rating to get an ilvl upgrade from there. Right now the median rating in PvP is below 1400. Half of the playerbase doesn't even get to a rating where they can get their first ilvl upgrade. Less than 10% of the playerbase gets to 1800.
    Compared to that, M+ is super easy to gear up with the weekly chest.

    So what exactly are you advocating for? Best gear for solo content in an MMO? Best gear for easy content? Because "best gear for 'hard' content that you can just wipe through" is already the system we have.


    edit:



    Except that you can just make your own engineering company and get the experience from that. Doesn't work all that well in real life but works pretty damn well in WoW, making your analogy really bad.
    You can’t wipe through a dungeon for hours in pugs because people will leave way before. Even inconsciously people will value the timer in some way.

    Even chill runs are not intended as “two hour runs with 100 deaths and 1000 gold of repair” but they are intended as “if we time it gg, if we don’t by a reasonable amount of time gg either”. All of my chill runs were par + 10 minutes or so, not par + 1 hour.

    I’m not advocating anything I’m saying that people are pointing fingers against rio instead of the reason why rio does exist, that should be the real target of complaints, for those who have to complain.

  11. #591
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    Knock it off with the bickering please. It is possible to discuss the topic without being rude to each other.
    Possible yes. Likely? Not on MMO-Champion sadly.

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauzhi View Post
    I once did a key +14 with some friends that suck at the game, they wanted a fat vault reward.
    200 deaths and 1h50m later we completed the dungeon.
    At the end I said I wouldnt do that again because it was the worse experience I had in wow for many years.
    What is wrong with you?

    You play with your friends for not even 2 hours and its the worst experience in your "wow for many years"?

    I get the comment from a random MMO noob with a few weeks of playtime and no social skills to deal with any MMO, but if you claim you play the game since years, thats just sad.
    -

  13. #593
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    You can’t wipe through a dungeon for hours in pugs because people will leave way before. Even inconsciously people will value the timer in some way.

    Even chill runs are not intended as “two hour runs with 100 deaths and 1000 gold of repair” but they are intended as “if we time it gg, if we don’t by a reasonable amount of time gg either”. All of my chill runs were par + 10 minutes or so, not par + 1 hour.

    I’m not advocating anything I’m saying that people are pointing fingers against rio instead of the reason why rio does exist, that should be the real target of complaints, for those who have to complain.
    Because those at the top are entitled 'scrubs' who expect everyone to play at the quality they do and if they don't they'll just leave? Ya that seems about right.

  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Past literally means 2-3 seasons ago.

    Simple truth is, it's all on you, and because of that you became toxic. I have bad-at-gaming friends, nobody is expecting to me to boost them.
    I haven't had a single acquaintance who expected me to boost him.
    I have great friends who I met over the years and we still play games together, just not WoW anymore. Some are good, some are bad.

    It is the decisions that game took over the years changed people or attracted wrong crowd. Funny is that you actually confirmed that:


    My guild from MoP wouldn't go far in last 2 expansions. And years have thought me one thing, I'd rather trade all that rat race for nice people to play with as I have enough assholes to deal with in work.

    Im fine with showing people best dungeon runs to better assemble team, but gtfo with numerical scores.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Show X best dungeon runs for specific dungeons. Where X > 3

    I made a group for mists, i see in tooltip:
    14/14/14/16/17
    11/13/14/16/17
    1/10/15/15/15
    9/15 (if less than X runs)
    ...

    I dont give a fuq about other dungeons, show me just mists. Anyone who has actually tried to push KR in BfA knows what im talking about.

    and maybe show amount of completed dungeons in time in bracket like (7)
    Ok, how do we know it won’t be done like that (actually rio also doesn’t , you have to manually go to website and check every applicant, that for me is a big no)?

    So actual rio or whatever score plus the history of the dungeon is ok and enough (no joking, just asking)?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Because those at the top are entitled 'scrubs' who expect everyone to play at the quality they do and if they don't they'll just leave? Ya that seems about right.
    May be but is this rio’s fault? Can’t this be due to the fact that the elitist feels “forced” to time the dungeon for whatever reason?

    Also I can assure that expectations for +14 I’m actually doing are really low: no mispull, decent dps, don’t die to easy mechanics, interrupt and stun, gg. No one pretends MDI like completion in a 14, this, again, I can assure.

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    May be but is this rio’s fault? Can’t this be due to the fact that the elitist feels “forced” to time the dungeon for whatever reason?
    It's almost like it's Blizzard's fault for making timed content that punishes everyone if they fail one of the best avenues for gear acquisition in the game. And that raider.io only exasperates the problem ten fold. That while there's always been toxic players, the above made the problem so much worse, to the point of it being the norm now. Complete with an entire forum where the majority of active posters support it wholeheartedly.

    No worries though, if you're like the others in this thread, you'll just scream "git gud u trash player, show your stats, whaaaaa!" and ignore that fact completely.

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    What is wrong with you?

    You play with your friends for not even 2 hours and its the worst experience in your "wow for many years"?

    I get the comment from a random MMO noob with a few weeks of playtime and no social skills to deal with any MMO, but if you claim you play the game since years, thats just sad.
    You can be friends but not enjoy doing certain things with them. I have a friend I've known for 10 years and we get along great together. But I took him kayaking down my favorite creek where I overestimated his skill level. Flipped on every set of rapids making me have to jump out and catch the kayak I let him borrow. Turned a 2 hour fun adventure into a 5 hour stress fest. One of the most miserable experiences of my life.

  17. #597
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    You can be friends but not enjoy doing certain things with them. I have a friend I've known for 10 years and we get along great together. But I took him kayaking down my favorite creek where I overestimated his skill level. Flipped on every set of rapids making me have to jump out and catch the kayak I let him borrow. Turned a 2 hour fun adventure into a 5 hour stress fest. One of the most miserable experiences of my life.
    So instead of helping him learn how to be better you just watched him fail time and time again. What a great friend you are.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Ok, how do we know it won’t be done like that (actually rio also doesn’t , you have to manually go to website and check every applicant, that for me is a big no)?

    So actual rio or whatever score plus the history of the dungeon is ok and enough (no joking, just asking)?

    - - - Updated - - -


    May be but is this rio’s fault? Can’t this be due to the fact that the elitist feels “forced” to time the dungeon for whatever reason?

    Also I can assure that expectations for +14 I’m actually doing are really low: no mispull, decent dps, don’t die to easy mechanics, interrupt and stun, gg. No one pretends MDI like completion in a 14, this, again, I can assure.
    No one is forced to be a certain way in this game or real life honestly. You choose to be that way. Trying to blame a mechanic or life experience for you being a douche to someone just shows a lack of personal responsibility.

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    So instead of helping him learn how to be better you just watched him fail time and time again. What a great friend you are.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No one is forced to be a certain way in this game or real life honestly. You choose to be that way. Trying to blame a mechanic or life experience for you being a douche to someone just shows a lack of personal responsibility.
    I spent the entire 5 hours trying to help him lol. Some ppl can not learn certain things and its my fault for assuming he could.

    Why choose to make a sarcastic remark like that? Shows a lack of personal responsibility. No one forced you to be this way

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by Something Wicked View Post
    It's almost like it's Blizzard's fault for making timed content that punishes everyone if they fail one of the best avenues for gear acquisition in the game. And that raider.io only exasperates the problem ten fold. That while there's always been toxic players, the above made the problem so much worse, to the point of it being the norm now. Complete with an entire forum where the majority of active posters support it wholeheartedly.

    No worries though, if you're like the others in this thread, you'll just scream "git gud u trash player, show your stats, whaaaaa!" and ignore that fact completely.
    I’m not screaming for anything. I’m probably only 2/3 weeks away from KSM (all dungeons at +14 apart from SD) but I’m not a top player, never will and honestly I’m not even interested. I just wanna prove myself I can make it despite being old and having few spare time, no less, no more, I’m not even interested in gear ilvl, for me it’s only a meaning to reach that goal. Stupid goal maybe but everyone plays its own way.

    But I am curious: what is your solution to the issue: “I have (want) to to that in time, how do I find other ppl willing and hopefully capable enough to do so without basing on ppl word only?” Because it’s clear that basing only on ilvl already present in-game does not help at all.
    Last edited by chiddie; 2021-04-20 at 05:06 PM.

  20. #600
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    look, plenty of people will join your group if your score is not abnormally low. And even if it is you'll still get people joining, honestly. If your score is 300 and you try to do a +5, nobody will care. If your score is 300 and you try to do a +13, then plenty of people will care because such a low score with such a high key is very sus.
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    If you post a +10 you will get plenty of ppl queuing. You won't get full 1500 but you'll get a decent variety. I know this because I do it every week on my alt. Most ppl face the +10 and the +15 barrier. If u don't have a group, running your own key is how you get thru it.

    You can even break the cycle if you want and invite low rio ppl.
    Ok so what I get to read between the lines, r.io score doesn't really matter until you are doing what, +13?
    I'm very interested at this point about these thresholds, so 300 r.io doesn't matter if you do +5, but +13 is too much? Ok what about r.io 600, does that get me to 10? And please refrain from thinking about carrying of any sort, just similar people in a group, everyone pulling their own weight.
    What about +15, what kind of r.io score you need in order to complete it? (well more like what r.io score you would personally consider +15 doable?)
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
    Mr. Smith about the cost of Triple-spec
    3k gold right off the bat, about 5 silver a week later.

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