In-game Raider.io score

[kaminaris]

I read it then you moved the goal posts and completely changed the narrative.

Nope, it just means you cut in the middle of conversation, not reading previous posts, not understanding the context. It was always about showing X best of specific dungeon, feature that does not exist in addon. I know what I was talking about. Then you tried to be a smartass thinking i was wrong, now you are trying to weasel out of admitting mistake.

[Tziva]

The addon (and the website) show your best for each specific dungeon so I don't even understand what we're even bickering about.

[kaminaris]

The addon (and the website) show your best for each specific dungeon so I don't even understand what we're even bickering about.

Which is completely irrelevant, it should show best X for specific dungeon (where X > 4), no arbitrary score that is meaningless. Just pure experience per specific dungeon.

Website shows that, addon doesnt. The thing is people dont give a damn since there are lots of applicants so they just look at score. Then they are wondering why there is so much skill difference even if score is the same.

I dont care if dude is "2k score", i wanna know how many times he has done specific dungeon, at what levels and how many in time.

[Tziva]

Which is completely irrelevant, it should show best X for specific dungeon (where X > 4), no arbitrary score that is meaningless. Just pure experience per specific dungeon.

Website shows that, addon doesnt. The thing is people dont give a damn since there are lots of applicants so they just look at score. Then they are wondering why there is so much skill difference even if score is the same.

Again, if you don't use the addon, you probably shouldn't make blanket statements about it. It literally does show your best level for each specific dungeon, not just a score.

If you're looking at applicants to HoA, for example:


If you're looking at total breakdown for all of them:


Yes, you have to go to the website to get the detailed breakdown with the total number of timed runs done for a specific key but it would sure cause a lot of tooltip bloat if it showed highest key and timed/untimed number for every single individual dungeon in the addon itself. The tooltips are big enough as is, and it does conveniently provide you with a link to do that if you want. Showing the best they've done and the total timed they've done seems pretty sufficient for at a glance info.

[kaminaris]

Again, if you don't use the addon, you probably shouldn't make blanket statements about it. It literally does show your best level for each specific dungeon, not just a score.

If you're looking at applicants to HoA, for example:


If you're looking at total breakdown for all of them:


Yes, you have to go to the website to get the detailed breakdown with the total number of timed runs done for a specific key but it would sure cause a lot of tooltip bloat if it showed highest key and timed/untimed number for every single individual dungeon in the addon itself. The tooltips are big enough as is, and it does conveniently provide you with a link to do that if you want. Showing the best they've done and the total timed they've done seems pretty sufficient for at a glance info.

Not EACH specific dungeon.

JUST specific dungeon.

I've not only used it, also checked its source code and data structure.


When I make a group for kings rest, i do not care about other dungeons, therefore score is meaningless, I only care about kings rest experience.

So what am saying, tooltip should look like, if people still cannot understand:

KINGS REST experience: 15 15 16 16 17

Timed 15+ KINGS REST runs: 12
Timed 10-14 KINGS REST runs: 3
Timed 5-9 KINGS REST runs: 10

WHY?

Because a guy who has done

15 15 16 17 17
is much more experienced than
7 9 10 15 17

and definitely more experienced than
X X X X 17


And yet they have very similar score for that dungeon. With a boosted guy at the end having higher than those two before him.

[Tziva]

Not EACH specific dungeon.

JUST specific dungeon.

I've not only used it, also checked its source code and data structure.


When I make a group for kings rest, i do not care about other dungeons, therefore score is meaningless, I only care about kings rest experience.

So what am saying, tooltip should look like, if people still cannot understand:

WHY?

Because a guy who has done

15 15 16 17 17
is much more experienced than
7 9 10 15 17

and definitely more experienced than
X X X X 17

This is such a backpedal.

You complained multiple times that all people see is score and that the total score doesn't mean anything when looking evaluating for a specific dungeon, and it has been repeatedly demonstrated that dungeon specific information is displayed, so nitpicking that you don't like the precise breakdown of the way it shows all the relevant data is just moving the goalposts.

The addon clearly shows more than just score, it shows your best dungeon, it shows your best per-dungeon with a highlight on the one you're currently listing/looking at, it shows how many dungeons you've timed in each individual key range, and it gives you a convenient link if you need even more detail than that for whatever reason. Saying that isn't sufficient when your entire complaint is that people are just blindly following "an arbitrary score" is disingenuous at best and shifting the goalposts.

You can see that person has done a +17 King's Rest, and you can see they have 45 timed keys, it is highly likely that they have experience there, but it's also a single copy paste if you really want to double check that they've done multiple ones in that dungeon in particular. Sure, maybe in the niche situation of you have a guy sign up that has only done five keys ever and you're concerned that maybe his 17 is the only time he's been there, but that situation is such an extreme niche circumstance and (a) you can solve it by checking the link (b) you're going to have two dozen other sign ups that have clearly done more keys and are safer bets anyway.

Honest question here to people who use raider.io: Do any of you only look at the total score when you invite, or do you look at the dungeon specific information for the key you're about to do?

[kaminaris]

This is such a backpedal.

No.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53132214

Much better option is to show best X dungeons without artificial "score".

Ex i wanna run 15 Mists, set filter to only players that already completed 14 in time.
Got 3 players listed

9 9 10 14
9 10 10 14
14 15 15 16


Since I wanna run Mists not other dungeons, this metric will show me much clearer picture.
Also allows to set filter in UI.

NOT other dungeons means I do not care about his/her experience of OTHER dungeons.

Since score consists of OTHER dungeons as well, it automatically makes it irrelevant.

I thought It was crystal clear what I was saying, especially if the guy I was responding to, understood it and agreed:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53132227

ALSO
showing OTHER best X dungeons in that list would make my suggestion simply not working.


There is absolutely no backpedaling here, this was the original thought.

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You can see that person has done a +17 King's Rest, and you can see they have 45 timed keys, it is highly likely that they have experience there, but it's also a single copy paste if you really want to double check that they've done multiple ones in that dungeon in particular. Sure, maybe in the niche situation of you have a guy sign up that has only done five keys ever and you're concerned that maybe his 17 is the only time he's been there, but that situation is such an extreme niche circumstance and (a) you can solve it by checking the link (b) you're going to have two dozen other sign ups that have clearly done more keys and are safer bets anyway.

My experience shows something completely different. People who had nearly the same score, nearly the same amount of completed 15+ dungs could have vastly different skill level when it comes to specific dungeons, it was clearly visible on KINGS REST. Because usually people just pushed it hard when it was EZPZ week then forgot about it.

Sure, when doing freehold score was relevant because it was ez dungeon that everyone played multiple times, but SOTS? KR? It was shot in a dark.

Then there was players with 200+ fifteens in time playing absolutely terribad while newcomers could do better. On the higher keys i had to check website breakdown for nearly hour long before finally assembling team. I pushed to world ~300 in BfA season 2 and it was at this time i realized how bad RIO is and people are using it wrong way.

[erifwodahs]

This is in key ranges where it doesn't matter fwiw. The highest Mists I've done is a 17. Even on Tyrannical the fight doesn't last long enough for it to be an issue. I don't know what key ranges Plehnard plays in (the one who specifically mentioned Consume) but I did want to point out that it's not uncommon to intentionally let it go in lower keys. I'm not saying it's a great idea in all key ranges. Obviously if yall pushing high keys the strategies for a lot of things is different.

That is true and we do it sometimes on forty weeks where full fight, even on 18-19s is not more than 50-80 seconds usually.

[Twdft]

No.

What I don't understand is how you do spend so much time writing the same stuff here for weeks now but you don't want to take the 5 seconds to look up a guy on website and also you never hop over to their discord #suggestions and tell them about it. They don't bite.

[erifwodahs]

Then there was players with 200+ fifteens in time playing absolutely terribad while newcomers could do better. On the higher keys i had to check website breakdown for nearly hour long before finally assembling team. I pushed to world ~300 in BfA season 2 and it was at this time i realized how bad RIO is and people are using it wrong way.

But rio is now bad, it's people who don't know how to use it. It literally takes 10seconds to check potential candidate.
And it's not "vastly different skill level" - it's different experience level. People should stop equating rio to skill and start thinking about it like experience which it is. You might be WF raider and still fail a +20 easy, not because of your skill but because of lack of experience.

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What I don't understand is how you do spend so much time writing the same stuff here for weeks now but you don't want to take the 5 seconds to look up a guy on website and also you never hop over to their discord #suggestions and tell them about it. They don't bite.

That is true too. I have had pleasant experience in direct communication with both - raider.io and raidbots staff. Awesome dudes. Obviously not discussing suggestions, but acc issues.

[Wuusah]

What I don't understand is how you do spend so much time writing the same stuff here for weeks now but you don't want to take the 5 seconds to look up a guy on website and also you never hop over to their discord #suggestions and tell them about it. They don't bite.

You didn't get the point @kaminaris is making. It's about the average player not taking the time to look up other players on the raider.io website. People for the most part just look at the score and nothing else.

But rio is now bad, it's people who don't know how to use it.

That's like when Steve Jobs blamed iPhone users who were "holding it wrong" when they were holding it in a very normal, standard way and got signal problems. Don't blame players who use raider.io in its most prominent and "right in your face" way. Blame raider.io whose UI is just not very good and requires you to go outside the game to really get the important information.

@kaminaris is completely right. What does it help me to know that someone has done 50 +15 dungeons when he maybe has only done 1 +15 in the dungeon I want to go? And I would never find that out unless I look him up on the website. And that's something players shouldn't have to do. The only argument for the r.io UI right now is that it's not very likely to come across players with such a weird behavior. It's very rare to have someone with a decent score for the key level you are going, a high amount of keys in that range run AND barely any experience in that one dungeon. For the vast majority of players, rio is good enough of a tool. But there are the odd exceptions like players who only run a handful of dungeons and others not at all, or players who run all dungeons but one. And those can either never get an invite because their score is low even though they have a ton of experience in that one dungeon they are queuing for or they get an invite for their high score even though they are less experienced than most people in queue in that dungeon.

The addon is not perfect but for the most part it's good enough. But it would definitely be an improvement if it had more dungeon specific data in the addon right in the game. What does it matter to me what key level that person did SD on when I'm going into ToP?

[Atharaxie]

But there are the odd exceptions like players who only run a handful of dungeons and others not at all, or players who run all dungeons but one. And those can either never get an invite because their score is low even though they have a ton of experience in that one dungeon they are queuing for o

That's a very specific exception. Do you wagger it happens a lot ? Are there Sanguine Depth experts out there that only run SD 17 18 19 with a RiO of 1200 nerver getting invites because PuG don't look into the details ? That would be a problem.

I didn't even envision such pcaveat of Rio because when ever I'm looking for a fifth player to complete our group, the primary concern is the class or spec (Brez, Bl, Sooth or vanish some buff, more melee, more distance). The secondary concern is flexibility as in "ability to operate well in PuG without vocal". In that sense, having a lot of 15+ under the belt is very good.
For me the informations provided by Rio in game are good enough. Seeing as my top keys are 18-19, if I were to attempt a 20 Sanguine and looking for a pick up, maybee I would take the time to compare 2 equaly suited candidate on Rio website to see the one with more expertise in SD. But that would be a "thirdary" concern, not one I would want to bloat Rio ui in game.

[Temp name]

It isn't an uncommon strategy to let Consume go the full channel because he doesn't do anything else while it's going on, and the link, mind control, and adds are way more annoying than some dumb swirls on the ground that you can move out of IMO.

It depends on group comp. Lots of mobility? Might as well keep it going. Nots of mobility? Interrupt as soon as possible so people can dps

[kamuimac]

But rio is now bad, it's people who don't know how to use it. It literally takes 10seconds to check potential candidate.
And it's not "vastly different skill level" - it's different experience level. People should stop equating rio to skill and start thinking about it like experience which it is. You might be WF raider and still fail a +20 easy, not because of your skill but because of lack of experience.

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That is true too. I have had pleasant experience in direct communication with both - raider.io and raidbots staff. Awesome dudes. Obviously not discussing suggestions, but acc issues.

its not bad - but its not great either. plus a lot of high r.io people dont give a single f... - like i had 1700 tank in DoS 14 last night who failed completly on pulls in last quarter letting mobs to get bolstered to ridiculous level because instead either pulling 1 pack at a time kiling it and then moving to another - or pull super big and nuke he kept chain pulling when mobs were on low health getting them to like 8-9 stacks of bolster - imagine how big those birst were on 9 stacks so what if he was good at kiting them - we wasted good 3-4 nutes on killing really really big birds :/. and then he failed to kill mob with 1400 io paladin healer on muezala .
why ? because he simply didnt give any f...s about now his key .

its toxic af addon that doesnt tell you anything about people besides that they got carried on easy weeks this late in tier.

[Aphrel]

Why you do assume you got declined based on your R.IO as a healer? It seems people have the extreme warped expectation that they are the ONLY one applying and thus if they get declined something was wrong with them personally. There are dozen of DPS applying for almost all keys, you not getting picked can be something as simple as: "We already have a mage, don't need a 2nd."

your mage got declines because there are 100+ dps signing up and you werent the top 3 most attractive options.

[Malania]

At last! Proper in-game ranking system
Hopefully it will be like PvP rankings and M+ players actually get something neat.

Rio won't go away tho, it's still a nice tool to see where you stand in the world for your class

Gear score went away.

[erifwodahs]

What does it help me to know that someone has done 50 +15 dungeons when he maybe has only done 1 +15 in the dungeon I want to go? And I would never find that out unless I look him up on the website. And that's something players shouldn't have to do.

Well, players don't have to use it at all. It's optional and gives at a glance information which is probably 80-90% good enough. It might be as what you guys are implying and some people might actually only do a dungeon once, but I have never actually encountered that in any extreme fashion and I don't play at +15s, so there might be some other intricacies in that bracket, people who go beyond that are self motivated which might change experience.
Also I don't trust people who have done many 15s and haven't done anything above 16-17s no matter if they have done 10x 16 Mists - it indicates stagnation or not much interest in pushing, I would rather invite someone who has less, but higher dungeons.

[kamuimac]

Well, players don't have to use it at all. It's optional and gives at a glance information which is probably 80-90% good enough. It might be as what you guys are implying and some people might actually only do a dungeon once, but I have never actually encountered that in any extreme fashion and I don't play at +15s, so there might be some other intricacies in that bracket, people who go beyond that are self motivated which might change experience.
Also I don't trust people who have done many 15s and haven't done anything above 16-17s no matter if they have done 10x 16 Mists - it indicates stagnation or not much interest in pushing, I would rather invite someone who has less, but higher dungeons.

stagnation is natural though .

i honestly dont see any single reason to push anything past +14 on my alts. on main ? maybe for KSM and score . but alts ? 0 reason . but all the reasons in the world to do 4x14+ for GV.

[erifwodahs]

stagnation is natural though .

i honestly dont see any single reason to push anything past +14 on my alts. on main ? maybe for KSM and score . but alts ? 0 reason . but all the reasons in the world to do 4x14+ for GV.

Nothing wrong with that, if my goals were just to do weekly keys - probably inviting consistent player, but you don't want someone who is stuck doing 17s for two months if your goal is pushing, it's not that the guys who have 100s of 15-17s is necessarily not good enough, it might be lack of motivation to put effort in timing higher keys.

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its not bad - but its not great either. plus a lot of high r.io people dont give a single f... - like i had 1700 tank in DoS 14 last night who failed completly on pulls in last quarter letting mobs to get bolstered to ridiculous level because instead either pulling 1 pack at a time kiling it and then moving to another - or pull super big and nuke he kept chain pulling when mobs were on low health getting them to like 8-9 stacks of bolster - imagine how big those birst were on 9 stacks so what if he was good at kiting them - we wasted good 3-4 nutes on killing really really big birds :/. and then he failed to kill mob with 1400 io paladin healer on muezala .
why ? because he simply didnt give any f...s about now his key .

its toxic af addon that doesnt tell you anything about people besides that they got carried on easy weeks this late in tier.

And? I had a 1.7k hunter yesterday who was doing good in 19 SoA Tyranical.
Can anyone explain me why raider.io opposition go into this ignorant state where rio must be used as a guarantee for a good player? It gives you better STATISTICAL CHANCE. "I bought a new car, it broke down 3 months later - new cars are dogshit, so I will rather buy a Lada from 1990 for my trip round Europe"

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Gear score went away.

yeah, but gear score was very limited and fully replaced, so unless Blizzard implements your class/spec/overall ranking in realm/region/world, your run rankings, highest dungeon stats, class/spec distributions, list of previous runs. So unless Blizz basically does that, it won't go away completely at all. GS was a single thing while rio is so much more.

[Malania]

yeah, but gear score was very limited and fully replaced, so unless Blizzard implements your class/spec/overall ranking in realm/region/world, your run rankings, highest dungeon stats, class/spec distributions, list of previous runs. So unless Blizz basically does that, it won't go away completely at all. GS was a single thing while rio is so much more.

True but GS could be boiled down to an average ilvl. rio can be boiled down as well. People are usually interested in the number equating it to ability.