It's always been a rat race. Gearscore, achievement linking, etc.
Overall here's the problem: There is challenging content in WoW that players want to engage in but only with players who can meet that challenge and succeed. There is (currently) no good and quick metric in which to judge applicates when looking through PuGs.
Sure you say you're a good player and can do the challenging end-game content but anyone can say that. How do we verify these statements? At the minimum, r.io shows other players that at the very least, a player has the experience and was skilled enough (or carried) through a certain level of dungeons. Add in checking number of dungeons done in time (which the addon provides) allows you to filter towards those that have done plenty of keys versus those who might have been carried a few times.
Ultimately that's the heart of the issue - we want to do challenging content with players equal (or exceeds) our level of skill and knowledge and rarely do we want to do that same challenging content with players of lesser skill or knowledge because the probability of failure increases with the later group compared to the former.
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I never understood the mentality of rio haters. If they're so good and can totally clear the content, why haven't they just run it already lol. I feel like taking the time to level your own key when u can't seem to get invited, would be a much better use of their time instead of crying about rio
Yeah... some people do that. The question is what's the better system. A vast majority of players are way more likely to buy an in game group carry with gold than give access to their account for real money / violate TOS. Thus making solo challenges way more indicative of player skill than a group rating.
My suspicion as well. People who behave poorly around others often find others react poorly, or with "toxicity" to them. Whenever someone says, "most people are toxic", I take that to mean, "I'm toxic and people wont tolerate my BS".
I try to treat others well in whatever game I'm playing and find that most people respond positively back to me, regardless of game.
"Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
~ Daryl Davis
This statement is a dumb thing to say. No matter how good a game is, people will take breaks from it. That means that he/she will have time to go elsewhere and post if need be. Like is it suppose to be soooooooooooo good that I can't or shouldn't post some where else in my free time......Like WTF
Be careful who you chat it up with here on these forums. If you are NOT for WoW and about WoW, people will report whatever you say and get you banned
This is a you problem. If you don't know how to use a tool properly it is hardly the tools fault. Thousands of people successfully use the tool every day. Read the FAQ.
At this point Blizzards implementation of a score is meaningless. I think they have a random queue in store for mythic + and the official score is the first step.
Last edited by guru-gamer; 2021-05-03 at 10:16 PM.
It's like the saying: If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.
These kinds of players simply don't realize that "being mean to someone" isn't the only form of toxic behavior in a group environment.
No, it's like saying that if people are assholes to you all the time, it might be that you are the asshole. Running into assholes in an unlucky day - sure, but all the time? No.
Leavers can be toxic, because it can be a form of griefing, but leaving a toxic pug, a false advertisement pug (i.e. push/fast weekly) and finding yourself wiping 3 times before you can reach second boss or obviously a carry run when leader invites his guildie who is underperforming hard and it was not disclosed - that is not toxic.
Can any anti-rio player tell me what's the alternative for Rio if I want to get KSM solo (pugging)? How do I make groups?
Just invite first person with enough ilvl and hope he knows the dungeon and his class? Is that it?
Because before I started to use RIO (legion) my M+ experience was horrible, and most of my groups were a failure and now I'm getting KSM every season and 96% of my runs are timed and can also use my score on Alts, having great way to progress them even despite low ilvl.
Removing RIO/score system is what would create elitism because it would shoehorn M+ back into premade group activity...
I don't know how you connected what I said to leaving bad groups.
My point is very simply this: If you are so bad that you stand out like a sore thumb then you'll eventually get toxicity thrown at you. There is a learning curve where you work your way up to the higher keys and try to improve and learn on your way there. If you try to skip ahead and then wipe the group because you clearly didn't learn mechanics, then people will get frustrated and/or angry.
Over half of the ppl complaining have no experience in "hard" content. They did heroic dungeons a few xpacs ago when trash had no mechanics and talk about how "back in my day" they just queued up and did it. Now that M+ is a thing, where trash needs interrupts and will kill u, and bosses have mechanics and phases, they can't roll their faces on their keyboards and clear it anymore. So instead of sticking to a normal maybe heroic raiding guild where they could hide as 1 of 30, they come here and cry because ppl can see their lack of experience now.
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So he wants to get carried to KSM by players that already have KSM. But players that already have KSM don't invite players who don't have KSM? How does that make sense?
Rio allows u to find similar ppl. If im working my way thru 13s, I want to make sure uve at least cleared the dungeon on 11 or 12, on time. Rio is there to filter out the ppl that haven't even done it on a 7 yet.
Alternatives exist, they are just way less convenient. You can look after characters' M+ experience on Wacraft Logs, they even have a scoring system. I've got 1734 points of this WL score (as a comparison, my raider.io score is 1613).
Before scores in Legion, we used to ask for achievements (same as for raids) and also on the very first M+ season, we asked people to link their own key. If they've got a +11 key in bags, then they have 10+ keys XP.
But actually I can sum up easily the classical "anti rio arguments" :
- because of raider.io, people are leaving my keys if it's over time, as they won't get points from the run
- raider.io is stupid, people ask for 1500+ score to do +15s, while all +15s in-time give only 1300
- people use raider.io when building lower-keys groups, a +10 is so easy and I'm 210+ ilvl, I can't get into M+10 groups because they ask for a stupid score
- raider.io information is irrelevant, I've had baddies with 1800+ score and great players without any score
- raider.io is encouraging boosts, and boosts are making score useless
- ...
You're quite literally putting words into someone else's mouth. He asked a fair question and you really didn't provide an answer. Even with rio people have been forming pushing groups all the time. The later the season goes, the less pushing groups there will be at KSM level as the average pushing level goes higher and higher.
Also getting players in the group who are "pushing KSM for fun", what do you mean by this? The people pushing KSM are doing it right now for fun. If you're implying you'd like a player above KSM level to join a KSM push group for fun, you're the one looking to get boosted. Also, there's multiple people doing this already.
Anyhow, there's just no way people would randomly invite people based on ilvl. They'd use any data they can find online to check on the people they invite or whose group they're planning to join. Removing scoring systems just makes this slower and more painful, but doesn't change anything.
Alternatives are alternative scores so it changes nothing essentially. In Legion we personally used WoW Progress for score until rio came up.
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Well, depending. If you are going a +15 with people who have 1.3k score - you don't pull like crazy and if you do, thats on you, but if you are doing +18, doing a 3 pack pull is a norm, it's a fairly easy key and people who are doing 18s should know how it works. So depending on the context, it might have been bad support, not a bad tank. Tank would be bad only if he did that pull when no one had CDs available or if he shared a route and did pulls not marked on it.
I am not saying, that tanks are not doing shit, but it's very often that DPS fail to execute their class and blame wipes on tanks. It does not help the tank population in game.
Indeed an interesting stat would be “medium rio required” vs “global party rio”.
I’m with you when you say “if run has been timed interrupts were probably ok”, but especially in 14-15 bracket the % of runs completed by simply bruteforcing the level is at least 90% nowadays.
I have 1187 rio with all 14 in time and there’s no way to get invited in a single 15 because party makers think that with me they won’t be able to bruteforce the key (that can be true to an extent, of course).
What value does have a 15 in time with a group of 1500 rio/225 ilvl ppl over a 14 in time with a group of 1100 rio/215 ilvl rio ppl? Has the first run been really more difficult than the second, for the players?