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  1. #761
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    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    I definitely agree with you there. The only people I know still playing WoW are M+ players.
    Yeah, I currently only play WoW for m+. Same with the tank in my group.

    We're both quite annoyed that we have to raid to get the sun king trinkets

  2. #762
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    But aside from that it turns M+ into rat race.
    It's always been a rat race. Gearscore, achievement linking, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    I really dislike what this game has become. eSport M+, ranks and ratings. The fuck is this shit lol.
    Overall here's the problem: There is challenging content in WoW that players want to engage in but only with players who can meet that challenge and succeed. There is (currently) no good and quick metric in which to judge applicates when looking through PuGs.

    Sure you say you're a good player and can do the challenging end-game content but anyone can say that. How do we verify these statements? At the minimum, r.io shows other players that at the very least, a player has the experience and was skilled enough (or carried) through a certain level of dungeons. Add in checking number of dungeons done in time (which the addon provides) allows you to filter towards those that have done plenty of keys versus those who might have been carried a few times.

    Ultimately that's the heart of the issue - we want to do challenging content with players equal (or exceeds) our level of skill and knowledge and rarely do we want to do that same challenging content with players of lesser skill or knowledge because the probability of failure increases with the later group compared to the former.
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  3. #763
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    It's always been a rat race. Gearscore, achievement linking, etc.



    Overall here's the problem: There is challenging content in WoW that players want to engage in but only with players who can meet that challenge and succeed. There is (currently) no good and quick metric in which to judge applicates when looking through PuGs.

    Sure you say you're a good player and can do the challenging end-game content but anyone can say that. How do we verify these statements? At the minimum, r.io shows other players that at the very least, a player has the experience and was skilled enough (or carried) through a certain level of dungeons. Add in checking number of dungeons done in time (which the addon provides) allows you to filter towards those that have done plenty of keys versus those who might have been carried a few times.

    Ultimately that's the heart of the issue - we want to do challenging content with players equal (or exceeds) our level of skill and knowledge and rarely do we want to do that same challenging content with players of lesser skill or knowledge because the probability of failure increases with the later group compared to the former.
    I never understood the mentality of rio haters. If they're so good and can totally clear the content, why haven't they just run it already lol. I feel like taking the time to level your own key when u can't seem to get invited, would be a much better use of their time instead of crying about rio

  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post

    Overall here's the problem: There is challenging content in WoW that players want to engage in but only with players who can meet that challenge and succeed. There is (currently) no good and quick metric in which to judge applicates when looking through PuGs.

    Sure you say you're a good player and can do the challenging end-game content but anyone can say that. How do we verify these statements? At the minimum, r.io shows other players that at the very least, a player has the experience and was skilled enough (or carried) through a certain level of dungeons. Add in checking number of dungeons done in time (which the addon provides) allows you to filter towards those that have done plenty of keys versus those who might have been carried a few times.

    Ultimately that's the heart of the issue - we want to do challenging content with players equal (or exceeds) our level of skill and knowledge and rarely do we want to do that same challenging content with players of lesser skill or knowledge because the probability of failure increases with the later group compared to the former.
    You'recorrect which is personally why I prefer solo challenges. Mage tower for example. And proving grounds was a much better model because you can't buy a carry which are rampant these days.

  5. #765
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    you can buy a carry for solo content... it just requires them to log on to your account and play... i have a friend who used to do that for rl money in arena... he'd play their accounts until they got the rating they wanted... sure... he eventually got banned for it but it's possible to get boosts by people playing your account instead of you...
    Yeah... some people do that. The question is what's the better system. A vast majority of players are way more likely to buy an in game group carry with gold than give access to their account for real money / violate TOS. Thus making solo challenges way more indicative of player skill than a group rating.

  6. #766
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Thus making solo challenges way more indicative of player skill than a group rating.
    I agree, but WoW is a MMO, and largely designed around group / team activities. In all of my years playing, since Beta and E3, I cannot recount a time when WoW was marketed as the ultimate single player experience.

  7. #767
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    This is the standard experience of pugging +14-15 keys.

    Imo chat toxicity is mostly a reaction to "gameplay toxicity". If people play like the biggest morons and waste everyone's time in a difficulty where they should know better, then they'll also encounter toxicity a lot. The solution to a lot of chat toxicity is to get better at the game. Not all of it, of course, but a lot of it.
    My suspicion as well. People who behave poorly around others often find others react poorly, or with "toxicity" to them. Whenever someone says, "most people are toxic", I take that to mean, "I'm toxic and people wont tolerate my BS".

    I try to treat others well in whatever game I'm playing and find that most people respond positively back to me, regardless of game.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  8. #768
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Ff14 is so good, that it gives you plenty of time to post here talking about how much you hate wow? Lol.

    If its the worst expansion, take a break from game, more importantly take a break from posting here. Go to a ff14 fan forum and spend energy talking abt the game u do play
    This statement is a dumb thing to say. No matter how good a game is, people will take breaks from it. That means that he/she will have time to go elsewhere and post if need be. Like is it suppose to be soooooooooooo good that I can't or shouldn't post some where else in my free time......Like WTF
    Be careful who you chat it up with here on these forums. If you are NOT for WoW and about WoW, people will report whatever you say and get you banned

  9. #769
    Quote Originally Posted by Clbull View Post
    Of all the third-party addons and external website features that Blizzard could have copied and implemented into WoW, raider.io score has to be one of the worst.

    The system literally breeds elitism and toxicity. Having it become an official game feature will just be downright damaging to the game's community.

    I don't use rio because I want to. I use rio because I've had a plethora of really bad players join my keys, and even then it's a metric that is not very reliable to gauge a player's skill. Especially since all it takes is a few WoW tokens to legitimately purchase boosts and wallet warrior your way to KSM...
    This is a you problem. If you don't know how to use a tool properly it is hardly the tools fault. Thousands of people successfully use the tool every day. Read the FAQ.

    At this point Blizzards implementation of a score is meaningless. I think they have a random queue in store for mythic + and the official score is the first step.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by guru-gamer View Post
    I agree, but WoW is a MMO, and largely designed around group / team activities. In all of my years playing, since Beta and E3, I cannot recount a time when WoW was marketed as the ultimate single player experience.
    The solo challenge is used as a way to show individual skill when you put yourself into the market of player groups.

  11. #771
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    The solo challenge is used as a way to show individual skill when you put yourself into the market of player groups.
    Unless the challenge includes every permutation of M+ mechanics / affixes it really isn't comparable. This isn't a single player fighting game like Street Fighter, and being able to react and coordinate appropriately is important.
    Last edited by guru-gamer; 2021-05-03 at 10:16 PM.

  12. #772
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    My suspicion as well. People who behave poorly around others often find others react poorly, or with "toxicity" to them. Whenever someone says, "most people are toxic", I take that to mean, "I'm toxic and people wont tolerate my BS".

    I try to treat others well in whatever game I'm playing and find that most people respond positively back to me, regardless of game.
    It's like the saying: If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.

    These kinds of players simply don't realize that "being mean to someone" isn't the only form of toxic behavior in a group environment.

  13. #773
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    It's like the saying: If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.

    These kinds of players simply don't realize that "being mean to someone" isn't the only form of toxic behavior in a group environment.
    No, it's like saying that if people are assholes to you all the time, it might be that you are the asshole. Running into assholes in an unlucky day - sure, but all the time? No.
    Leavers can be toxic, because it can be a form of griefing, but leaving a toxic pug, a false advertisement pug (i.e. push/fast weekly) and finding yourself wiping 3 times before you can reach second boss or obviously a carry run when leader invites his guildie who is underperforming hard and it was not disclosed - that is not toxic.

  14. #774
    Can any anti-rio player tell me what's the alternative for Rio if I want to get KSM solo (pugging)? How do I make groups?
    Just invite first person with enough ilvl and hope he knows the dungeon and his class? Is that it?

    Because before I started to use RIO (legion) my M+ experience was horrible, and most of my groups were a failure and now I'm getting KSM every season and 96% of my runs are timed and can also use my score on Alts, having great way to progress them even despite low ilvl.

    Removing RIO/score system is what would create elitism because it would shoehorn M+ back into premade group activity...

  15. #775
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    No, it's like saying that if people are assholes to you all the time, it might be that you are the asshole. Running into assholes in an unlucky day - sure, but all the time? No.
    Leavers can be toxic, because it can be a form of griefing, but leaving a toxic pug, a false advertisement pug (i.e. push/fast weekly) and finding yourself wiping 3 times before you can reach second boss or obviously a carry run when leader invites his guildie who is underperforming hard and it was not disclosed - that is not toxic.
    I don't know how you connected what I said to leaving bad groups.

    My point is very simply this: If you are so bad that you stand out like a sore thumb then you'll eventually get toxicity thrown at you. There is a learning curve where you work your way up to the higher keys and try to improve and learn on your way there. If you try to skip ahead and then wipe the group because you clearly didn't learn mechanics, then people will get frustrated and/or angry.

  16. #776
    Quote Originally Posted by melzas View Post
    Can any anti-rio player tell me what's the alternative for Rio if I want to get KSM solo (pugging)? How do I make groups?
    Just invite first person with enough ilvl and hope he knows the dungeon and his class? Is that it?

    Because before I started to use RIO (legion) my M+ experience was horrible, and most of my groups were a failure and now I'm getting KSM every season and 96% of my runs are timed and can also use my score on Alts, having great way to progress them even despite low ilvl.

    Removing RIO/score system is what would create elitism because it would shoehorn M+ back into premade group activity...
    Over half of the ppl complaining have no experience in "hard" content. They did heroic dungeons a few xpacs ago when trash had no mechanics and talk about how "back in my day" they just queued up and did it. Now that M+ is a thing, where trash needs interrupts and will kill u, and bosses have mechanics and phases, they can't roll their faces on their keyboards and clear it anymore. So instead of sticking to a normal maybe heroic raiding guild where they could hide as 1 of 30, they come here and cry because ppl can see their lack of experience now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MechanoDruid View Post
    Yep, pretty much.

    But you don't want that, you want to get boosted by players with higher score who have completed KSM, so you are using RIO. Which is why RIO is cancer and new system is shit.

    Without stupid system you'd have to find other players who want to get KSM, push keys together. Might get some players who'd be doing that for fun. But because RIO exists, even if you are not using RIO, large enough part of player base near KSM level are using it, so players with high score see that you don't have KSM and avoid your group, thus making your task harder than it would have been if KSM didn't exist at all.

    Systems that are designed to divide player base are always bad in what supposed to be MMO. Blizzard should have never exposed runs data, which made RIO possible.
    So he wants to get carried to KSM by players that already have KSM. But players that already have KSM don't invite players who don't have KSM? How does that make sense?

    Rio allows u to find similar ppl. If im working my way thru 13s, I want to make sure uve at least cleared the dungeon on 11 or 12, on time. Rio is there to filter out the ppl that haven't even done it on a 7 yet.

  17. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by melzas View Post
    Can any anti-rio player tell me what's the alternative for Rio if I want to get KSM solo (pugging)? How do I make groups?
    Just invite first person with enough ilvl and hope he knows the dungeon and his class? Is that it?
    Alternatives exist, they are just way less convenient. You can look after characters' M+ experience on Wacraft Logs, they even have a scoring system. I've got 1734 points of this WL score (as a comparison, my raider.io score is 1613).

    Before scores in Legion, we used to ask for achievements (same as for raids) and also on the very first M+ season, we asked people to link their own key. If they've got a +11 key in bags, then they have 10+ keys XP.

    But actually I can sum up easily the classical "anti rio arguments" :

    - because of raider.io, people are leaving my keys if it's over time, as they won't get points from the run
    - raider.io is stupid, people ask for 1500+ score to do +15s, while all +15s in-time give only 1300
    - people use raider.io when building lower-keys groups, a +10 is so easy and I'm 210+ ilvl, I can't get into M+10 groups because they ask for a stupid score
    - raider.io information is irrelevant, I've had baddies with 1800+ score and great players without any score
    - raider.io is encouraging boosts, and boosts are making score useless
    - ...

  18. #778
    Quote Originally Posted by MechanoDruid View Post
    Yep, pretty much.

    But you don't want that, you want to get boosted by players with higher score who have completed KSM, so you are using RIO. Which is why RIO is cancer and new system is shit.

    Without stupid system you'd have to find other players who want to get KSM, push keys together. Might get some players who'd be doing that for fun. But because RIO exists, even if you are not using RIO, large enough part of player base near KSM level are using it, so players with high score see that you don't have KSM and avoid your group, thus making your task harder than it would have been if KSM didn't exist at all.

    Systems that are designed to divide player base are always bad in what supposed to be MMO. Blizzard should have never exposed runs data, which made RIO possible.
    You're quite literally putting words into someone else's mouth. He asked a fair question and you really didn't provide an answer. Even with rio people have been forming pushing groups all the time. The later the season goes, the less pushing groups there will be at KSM level as the average pushing level goes higher and higher.

    Also getting players in the group who are "pushing KSM for fun", what do you mean by this? The people pushing KSM are doing it right now for fun. If you're implying you'd like a player above KSM level to join a KSM push group for fun, you're the one looking to get boosted. Also, there's multiple people doing this already.

    Anyhow, there's just no way people would randomly invite people based on ilvl. They'd use any data they can find online to check on the people they invite or whose group they're planning to join. Removing scoring systems just makes this slower and more painful, but doesn't change anything.

  19. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by Naville View Post
    Alternatives exist, they are just way less convenient. You can look after characters' M+ experience on Wacraft Logs, they even have a scoring system. I've got 1734 points of this WL score (as a comparison, my raider.io score is 1613).
    Alternatives are alternative scores so it changes nothing essentially. In Legion we personally used WoW Progress for score until rio came up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hauzhi View Post

    About high IO's. Doesnt impress me much. I have seen tanks with 2.2k IO doing shit pulls and ruining keys because they think they are in MDI competition and are actually doing a pug.
    .
    Well, depending. If you are going a +15 with people who have 1.3k score - you don't pull like crazy and if you do, thats on you, but if you are doing +18, doing a 3 pack pull is a norm, it's a fairly easy key and people who are doing 18s should know how it works. So depending on the context, it might have been bad support, not a bad tank. Tank would be bad only if he did that pull when no one had CDs available or if he shared a route and did pulls not marked on it.
    I am not saying, that tanks are not doing shit, but it's very often that DPS fail to execute their class and blame wipes on tanks. It does not help the tank population in game.

  20. #780
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauzhi View Post
    People here asking for stats like interrupts are going to far.

    Dont over think stuff. If keys are complete, I'm pretty sure "most" interrupts are done properly.

    About high IO's. Doesnt impress me much. I have seen tanks with 2.2k IO doing shit pulls and ruining keys because they think they are in MDI competition and are actually doing a pug.

    People unable to adapt to their party comp and skill worry me more than failing a couple interrupts.
    Indeed an interesting stat would be “medium rio required” vs “global party rio”.

    I’m with you when you say “if run has been timed interrupts were probably ok”, but especially in 14-15 bracket the % of runs completed by simply bruteforcing the level is at least 90% nowadays.

    I have 1187 rio with all 14 in time and there’s no way to get invited in a single 15 because party makers think that with me they won’t be able to bruteforce the key (that can be true to an extent, of course).

    What value does have a 15 in time with a group of 1500 rio/225 ilvl ppl over a 14 in time with a group of 1100 rio/215 ilvl rio ppl? Has the first run been really more difficult than the second, for the players?

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