[Potential spoilers]Sylvanas, the Convergence of the Shadowlands, and the Great Truth

[Powerogue]

I do think there will be some major change to the structure of the Shadowlands indirectly, but we'll still have to stop her and get retribution for all the harm she's done. Like Devos was indirectly right about the path being flawed, but "let's ally with the Maw instead and kill the kyrian of Bastion" was not the correct solution.

They're definitely planting seeds of doubt in Sylvanas through Anduin, but what will be the fruit of those seeds is anyone's guess.

If there's any way I want things to go now, it would be Mawduin killing Sylvanas. She had the opportunity to listen to him and let him go, failed, and deserves the consequences.

[Felrane]

I do think there will be some major change to the structure of the Shadowlands indirectly, but we'll still have to stop her and get retribution for all the harm she's done. Like Devos was indirectly right about the path being flawed, but "let's ally with the Maw instead and kill the kyrian of Bastion" was not the correct solution.

They're definitely planting seeds of doubt in Sylvanas through Anduin, but what will be the fruit of those seeds is anyone's guess.

If there's any way I want things to go now, it would be Mawduin killing Sylvanas. She had the opportunity to listen to him and let him go, failed, and deserves the consequences.

What would be amazing is instead of dieing Sylvanas gets bound to either Anduin or another Lich King again losing her freewill all over again.

I also wonder if the Jailer is actually evil or just the way he is because his Heart was taken. When he finally gets his heart back he will change and try to fix what he has done. I still think the First ones took his kingdom from him and forced changes on the realm of death. Zovaal might have killed one and was punished for it.

Blizzard also talked about Domination magic being its own type of magic does is it another school? Like Light/void/fel ect... that we dont know about? Perhaps the Jailer isn't even in control himself considering he is covered in the runes and chains. There could always be a 3rd party pulling the strings.

[enigma77]

A revamp of Northrend for one patch? I doubt it.

Not for the whole continent. Just a zone or two.

Icecrown and Stormpeaks most likely. Like what they did with Arathi and Darkshore, give them a visual update and add new stuff.

[Wangming]

No. I've been speculating for some time that this will be another 2 patch expansion like WoD.

And it doesn't necessarily correlate to lore either. It's easy to see why marketing-wise it'd be smarter to push for a 2 patch expansion. 9.1 is already coming very late, 10.0 would have to come out in 2023 if they intend to push for a 9.3 patch... and that's simply too late for a new expansion, it would mean a significant money loss for Activision Blizzard.

Seems like the story is already wrapping up to. Jailer is literally attacking Oribos where the final key is (Arbiter), it doesn't take a genius to figure out 9.2 is likely going to be the final patch of Shadowlands.

Well obviously I've been favoring the two patch route for weeks now, but the datamine supports it. I mean the game just introduced the idea of the keys, yet, but the Jailer gets a hold of at least two of the four. Kel'Thuzad and Sylvanas are dealth with, Torghast is destroyed. Storywise we will be done with this onsense before 9.2

[iamthedevil]

"dudes, I was on your side all along and we must save Manduin and stop the Janitor" .

lol nice .

[TheFirstOnes]

Question. If during this raid the Jailer goes to Oribos and Sylvanas destroys torghast (or somethin) are people really expecting two more patches out of this story?

- - - Updated - - -



Nope. From a cosmic standpoint maybe. From a franchise standpoint? The Jailer is a fucking nobody while Sylvanas is one of the faces of WarCraft, featuring in more opening cinematics than any other character.

From a franchise standpoint, it doesn't matter if Sylvanas is one of the main faces. The Jailer is still the main antagonist of the expansion, and is way above Sylvanas in every way, shape or form.

"are people really expecting two more patches out of this story?" I'd say it's early to tell. Reminder that people thought BFA would have 2 patches also.

[Varodoc]

Well obviously I've been favoring the two patch route for weeks now, but the datamine supports it. I mean the game just introduced the idea of the keys, yet, but the Jailer gets a hold of at least two of the four. Kel'Thuzad and Sylvanas are dealth with, Torghast is destroyed. Storywise we will be done with this onsense before 9.2

What suggests it the most as I said is not story but financial reasons, maybe people in this Story forum don't realize it but 9.1 is super late.

8.1 came out 4 months after BfA's release, people who thought BfA wasn't going to have 8.3 were delusional since the timeline aligned with a third content patch, but it's massively different for Shadowlands. The earliest option for 9.1 is june (assuming the PTR goes very smoothly), that's already 7 months after release, it is very delayed. Good luck squeezing in a third content patch while pushing for a new expansion release at the end of 2022 to maximize profits in Q4 of 2022.

So Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Bobby Kotick decided that Shadowlands won't have a 9.3. Companies don't give a shit about story when planning new content updates, WoD is the evidence of that.

[arandomuser]

the void lords will enter through the shadowlands
as nzoth says "only i can save you from what is to come"

9 ravens? 9 kyrian boss, lord of ravens? odyn is back?
at the hour of her 3rd death, clearly sylvanas, and lets just be honest the devs probably forgot about the whole silverpine thing and that dosent count so it would indeed be her 3rd death

[Wangming]

What suggests it the most as I said is not story but financial reasons, maybe people in this Story forum don't realize it but 9.1 is super late.

No kidding. By now every expansion had its first major content patch and Legion even had its second. We are 144 days in and the PTR just began this week.

[Gaidax]

Let's not go that far. Besides, Sylvanas is essentially a throwaway at the end of the day. The Jailer's the big boi.

Sylvanas won't be going anywhere, she will be another Azshara/Kerrigan 2.0, where we will defeat her, but she ends up being around for future use. It is hinted for a while that she will be important for the inevitable Void expansion.

[Varodoc]

No kidding. By now every expansion had its first major content patch and Legion even had its second. We are 144 days in and the PTR just began this week.

"But we still don't know what the Jailer wants!!"

To be honest I don't think that's a good enough reason for Activision Blizzard. Something tells me that Bobby Kotick doesn't care too much about the Jailer's motivations.

... And maybe the Jailer simply isn't meant to be more than a generic evil villain. People here constantly theorize that "Oh maybe the Jailer is the good guy, maybe he wants to free everyone, maybe he's secretly the good guy!", but Warcraft is such a simple story. If a character constantly spews nonsense like "Your world is mine!", "You cannot stop me!", "No one can escape me!", "Foolish mortals!", "I will destroy you foolish mortals!", then maybe they are indeed just evil

[Gaidax]

From a franchise standpoint, it doesn't matter if Sylvanas is one of the main faces. The Jailer is still the main antagonist of the expansion, and is way above Sylvanas in every way, shape or form.

"are people really expecting two more patches out of this story?" I'd say it's early to tell. Reminder that people thought BFA would have 2 patches also.

It would make sense for 9.2 to be the last patch of expansion to wrap up this part of the story, finish off Jailer and setup the whatever next shit we directly/indirectly unleash next. It won't be the first.

I almost expect Nazi Light to be next. Here's the setup - Jailer and Manduin assault Stormwind, Turalyon scared shitless shuffles his lighbulb contacts who come to aid us, but at the same time sells our guts to them... -or- could be same shit, but Void with Alleria, but my bet is Light, it's not accident it's prominent in Revendreth.

- - - Updated - - -

... And maybe the Jailer simply isn't meant to be more than a generic evil villain. People here constantly theorize that "Oh maybe the Jailer is the good guy, maybe he wants to free everyone, maybe he's secretly the good guy!", but Warcraft is such a simple story. If a character constantly spews nonsense like "Your world is mine!", "You cannot stop me!", "No one can escape me!", "Foolish mortals!", "I will destroy you foolish mortals!", then maybe they are indeed just evil

It is really, yeah there is some sappy "ama betrayed by muh braddahs and sistahs", but I bet the reveal would be that it's just him having some cray cray idea about how things should be and them deciding that it's better to lock him away in a loontown before he fucks up everything.

Ultimately he does strike me as a one expansion villain, he is wholly contained in one expansion - he's not Sargeras or even N'zoth who had actual ominous presence in previous expansions one way or another. Yes he got tied to just about every major lore event Blizz could think of, but it all really happened in this expansion - "Oh btw, this new guy? He did it all along!"... that is in before some other guy we learn of in 12.0 orchestrated him orchestrating everything.

[Varodoc]

It would make sense for 9.2 to be the last patch of expansion to wrap up this part of the story, finish off Jailer and setup the whatever next shit we directly/indirectly unleash next. It won't be the first.

I almost expect Nazi Light to be next. Here's the setup - Jailer and Manduin assault Stormwind, Turalyon scared shitless shuffles his lighbulb contacts who come to aid us, but at the same time sells our guts to them... -or- could be same shit, but Void with Alleria, but my bet is Light, it's not accident it's prominent in Revendreth.

- - - Updated - - -



It is really, yeah there is some sappy "ama betrayed by muh braddahs and sistahs", but I bet the reveal would be that it's just him having some cray cray idea about how things should be and them deciding that it's better to lock him away in a loontown before he fucks up everything.

Ultimately he does strike me as a one expansion villain, he is wholly contained in one expansion - he's not Sargeras or even N'zoth who had actual ominous presence in previous expansions one way or another. Yes he got tied to just about every major lore event Blizz could think of, but it all really happened in this expansion - "Oh btw, this new guy? He did it all along!"... that is in before some other guy we learn of in 12.0 orchestrated him orchestrating everything.

Yes, this is precisely why Jailer is not and will never be as iconic as Sargeras and N'Zoth.

Sargeras and N'Zoth were actually built up throughout many expansions and their deeds were portrayed in a way that felt natural. Sargeras has been built up since WC3 with the Tomb of Sargeras and he obviously had a lot of screentime in the War of the Ancients novels, N'Zoth was built up since Cataclysm as the mastermind who orchestrated Deathwing's rise and the Cataclysm.

Jailer? Like you said he literally came out of nowhere in this expansion. And while some around this forum might be in awe at how much stuff he "planned" and "influenced" (not making names), it is all extremely artificial. It's easy to be influential when Blizzard retcons half the established lore for you.

In other words, Sargeras and N'Zoth levelled to 60 the old way, while Jailer bought the level boost.

[Wangming]

"But we still don't know what the Jailer wants!!"

To be honest I don't think that's a good enough reason for Activision Blizzard. Something tells me that Bobby Kotick doesn't care too much about the Jailer's motivations.

... And maybe the Jailer simply isn't meant to be more than a generic evil villain. People here constantly theorize that "Oh maybe the Jailer is the good guy, maybe he wants to free everyone, maybe he's secretly the good guy!", but Warcraft is such a simple story. If a character constantly spews nonsense like "Your world is mine!", "You cannot stop me!", "No one can escape me!", "Foolish mortals!", "I will destroy you foolish mortals!", then maybe they are indeed just evil

Well that depends. Contrast the ARR portrayal of Ascians in FFXIV compared to ShB. They are masked cultist with metal spikes on their black robes and always spew nonsense about wanting to cause the apocalypse. Yet you end up crying when you kill the leaders. So it is possible to write more complex personalities and motivations for villains who look generic. But it needs a writing team that is willing and able to do so. And of course focus. Occasionally looking at what he talks about with Sylvanas is not enough to develop a character. Denathrius works as a villain because he interacts with player characters and does stuff to them.

[TickTickTick]

So Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Bobby Kotick decided that Shadowlands won't have a 9.3. Companies don't give a shit about story when planning new content updates, WoD is the evidence of that.

"But we still don't know what the Jailer wants!!"

To be honest I don't think that's a good enough reason for Activision Blizzard. Something tells me that Bobby Kotick doesn't care too much about the Jailer's motivations.

... And maybe the Jailer simply isn't meant to be more than a generic evil villain. People here constantly theorize that "Oh maybe the Jailer is the good guy, maybe he wants to free everyone, maybe he's secretly the good guy!", but Warcraft is such a simple story. If a character constantly spews nonsense like "Your world is mine!", "You cannot stop me!", "No one can escape me!", "Foolish mortals!", "I will destroy you foolish mortals!", then maybe they are indeed just evil

I mean, there is a possibility that the storywriters planned for the Jailer to be something else later into the story. But I agree, with how delayed 9.1 is, I wouldn't be surprised if they completely changed their plans on how the story should progress (basically like in WoD) and said "Screw it, let the Jailer remain as an evil, cartoonish villain with no character and motive other than 'raaawrrr me kill and rule', not like anyone liked him anyway".

So yeah, whatever potential Shadowlands could have, I expect it all to be thrown into trashcan and the rest of the story to end with something clitche like WoD.

I almost expect Nazi Light to be next. Here's the setup - Jailer and Manduin assault Stormwind, Turalyon scared shitless shuffles his lighbulb contacts who come to aid us, but at the same time sells our guts to them... -or- could be same shit, but Void with Alleria, but my bet is Light, it's not accident it's prominent in Revendreth.

The Void was also present in the Bastion. Anyway, what I expect is the Light vs the Void expansion next. It's all very clear by now that all cosmos forces fight each other to be the one to claim Azeroth (for whatever reason). The Legion was pacified, we'll stop the Jailer next, so I guess the Void and the Light will become a lot more active in their ways to claim Azeroth - we know the Void can do a lot better than that, and the Light doesn't seem to be trying at all for now, but there's no reason to believe the Light is morally better than other forces.

[voidox]

Yes, this is precisely why Jailer is not and will never be as iconic as Sargeras and N'Zoth.

true, but too bad danuser and his writing team think the Jailer is some menacing/threatening villain that we care about. As a result, Nzoth and Sargeras were rushed and wasted :/

but there's no reason to believe the Light is morally better than other forces.

how so? there are plenty of reasons to believe that beings of light are morally better than other forces (we're not talking about wielding light itself, as anyone can do that, good or evil)

the naaru have largely done nothing but help/guide/protect/sacrifice for the benefit of others. Only Xe'ra was going fanatic with wanting illidan, but even then she had a reason of wanting to end the long war against the legion.

now sure, I've seen some people try and argue that the naaru only help us cause it benefits them against their enemies... but the fact is that said enemies are the legion/void, and both legion/void are completely evil and not good for the cosmos. And the light is really the main force protecting the cosmos from those evils.

also Xe'ra =/= other naaru (and all other naaru we've seen/interacted with have been good), naaru =/= light itself

now ya, Danuser has this dumb obsession with "everything morally grey" and is forcing that on all the cosmic forces, especially with the naaru... but man it's going to be a real detriment to the story seeing as the comics forces are all going to just end up as "which shade of color wants control" if it does happen -_-

[Gaidax]

how so? there are plenty of reasons to believe that beings of light are morally better than other forces (we're not talking about wielding light itself, as anyone can do that, good or evil)

the naaru have largely done nothing but help/guide/protect/sacrifice for the benefit of others. Only Xe'ra was going fanatic with wanting illidan, but even then she had a reason of wanting to end the long war against the legion.

now sure, I've seen some people try and argue that the naaru only help us cause it benefits them against their enemies... but the fact is that said enemies are the legion/void, and both legion/void are completely evil and not good for the cosmos. And the light is really the main force protecting the cosmos from those evils.

also Xe'ra =/= other naaru (and all other naaru we've seen/interacted with have been good), naaru =/= light itself

now ya, Danuser has this dumb obsession with "everything morally grey" and is forcing that on all the cosmic forces, especially with the naaru... but man it's going to be a real detriment to the story seeing as the comics forces are all going to just end up as "which shade of color wants control" if it does happen -_-

Xera is not exactly a rogue agent, it's just example of what Light does given enough time and home turf. Add to this whole Maghar thing and some writings and it's pretty clear that Light wants to reimagine universe in its own image just about as every other major force.

Yes, Light for a good chunk of time was associated with good for players, but it did not really have a free reign unopposed. There really is no reason to assume that Light won't aim to fill the void left by other powers once they diminish and heck it's influence is about as corrupting as void really, it's just "nice" corruption - the kind where you don't pay attention you even became the thrall, like Xera brainwashing Army of Light.

[RobertMugabe]

Without reading into any of this, my speculation is that it's something related to the void or the nathrezim.

[Le Conceptuel]

true, but too bad danuser and his writing team think the Jailer is some menacing/threatening villain that we care about. As a result, Nzoth and Sargeras were rushed and wasted :/



how so? there are plenty of reasons to believe that beings of light are morally better than other forces (we're not talking about wielding light itself, as anyone can do that, good or evil)

the naaru have largely done nothing but help/guide/protect/sacrifice for the benefit of others. Only Xe'ra was going fanatic with wanting illidan, but even then she had a reason of wanting to end the long war against the legion.

now sure, I've seen some people try and argue that the naaru only help us cause it benefits them against their enemies... but the fact is that said enemies are the legion/void, and both legion/void are completely evil and not good for the cosmos. And the light is really the main force protecting the cosmos from those evils.

also Xe'ra =/= other naaru (and all other naaru we've seen/interacted with have been good), naaru =/= light itself

now ya, Danuser has this dumb obsession with "everything morally grey" and is forcing that on all the cosmic forces, especially with the naaru... but man it's going to be a real detriment to the story seeing as the comics forces are all going to just end up as "which shade of color wants control" if it does happen -_-

It is rather irritating how every good or evil force has to actually have this added muddling when it doesn't add depth. Sometimes, there's plenty of depth to just having reasons for being moral or immoral. Not everything has to be about how morality is subjective, cosmic forces don't understand mortals etc. etc.

Honestly, I find the whole Shadowlands story kind of an example of that. I think that in a setting where there are powers beyond mortals, it is actually better to emphasize that mortal life shouldn't know better. If I were writing Shadowlands, I'd go out of my way to emphasize things like how the Kyrians are objectively right, the Arbiter is infallible as a moral judge, etc. rather than constantly wank off Sylvie and the Evil Blue Man Group exile.

[Super Dickmann]

It is rather irritating how every good or evil force has to actually have this added muddling when it doesn't add depth. Sometimes, there's plenty of depth to just having reasons for being moral or immoral. Not everything has to be about how morality is subjective, cosmic forces don't understand mortals etc. etc.

Honestly, I find the whole Shadowlands story kind of an example of that. I think that in a setting where there are powers beyond mortals, it is actually better to emphasize that mortal life shouldn't know better. If I were writing Shadowlands, I'd go out of my way to emphasize things like how the Kyrians are objectively right, the Arbiter is infallible as a moral judge, etc. rather than constantly wank off Sylvie and the Evil Blue Man Group exile.

That is fantasy old race syndrome 101. It's the same reason why the elf races and especially the draenei and the Lightforged act exactly like (incompetent) people and are upstaged by humans at every turn. We rock up to these cosmic powers in five minutes tell them about our spirit and they upend their entire system. The afterlife, by virtue of its infinite options even tailors to humans.

The most interesting parts of Shadowlands are when it goes full ham in the opposite direction. People take the piss out of the Kyrian being legendarily thick in how they continually dunk people into the Maw even when they know it's fucked purely because it's their job or how the Archon goes "cool story" to both Uther and Devos before blowing them off, but the Kyrian are actually the closes to acting like people who've had milennia to refine their way to serve their exact consensus and don't exist to pander to mortality. Ditto the selection process - the most interesting part of Revendreth's selection was what was cut in the Beta, namely that one Blood Knight who did make a nuclear bomb and use it, but was spared from the Maw not because of any conventional virtue as we'd see it but because he was able to manipulate the Light and to people who fear the Light like the Venthyr that was an important trait. Maldraxxus in turn has the Venthyr theoretician text who goes on about how the souls there are on average probably worse than those in their care, but useful, so they get away with things the Venthyr are meant to cut out otherwise. Hell, Emeni asks you to project her soul into mortal life so she can go around cleaving down the descendants of Sethrak who piss her off.

The game flirts with these ideas, but it is too afraid to commit to actually alien belief systems and the both more bleak and more interesting aspects of an objective afterlife. Much like with the factions it hurtles towards this blandness event horizon which is why all these edges are sanded off. Given there's a questline called 'A New Path' going further I am dead certain the Kyrian will become more conventionally good because of the love of mortals, ergo more boring. Maldraxxus will likely come out the best of this. We don't need to have these groups be infallible, but we need them to act like they're infallible and to have little motive to change, emphasizing that without outside factors the system runs as intended and is generally functional. Committed groups are more interesting and it'd make the baddie's goal more compelling when reform isn't a snap of the fingers away.