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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I think the difference here is that the Jailer and Sylvanas have yet to give a real reason why the current system is so horrible. At best it just looks like Sylvanas is pissy that she cannot go to heaven after being evil.

    More importantly though is that the solution they seemingly give is to just destroy everything and kill everyone.


    One of the gravest sins a writer can make is to have a resolution be at odds with the way the story is told. If a story is about a foster kid who gains friends and a loving family through a caring system you cannot then have the resolution be that the foster system is terrible.
    Similarly the story in Shadowlands is that everyone goes to a fair afterlife, with at worst a few stragglers that are misjudged, mostly based around the Kyrians. You cannot then have the story end by telling us that this is not how it is supposed to work. We have yet to even see a fundamental flaw in how the afterlife works that needs rectifying outside the specific case of the Kyrians, and even then it seems more that the problem is that they don't want to give massive powers to those that intend ot use it for the wrong reasons.

    You don't need them to explain it to you when you can see for yourself the machine is broken.

    A kyrian can decide on his own to dump a soul into the maw without judgment (Arthas), or just mindlessly carry good people to the maw just because the Arbiter is "out of order".

    I have no idea what are they suggesting instead, but given an eternity of undeserving torrment or simply ceasing to exist - I'll take the latter.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by leorana View Post
    You don't need them to explain it to you when you can see for yourself the machine is broken.

    A kyrian can decide on his own to dump a soul into the maw without judgment (Arthas), or just mindlessly carry good people to the maw just because the Arbiter is "out of order".

    I have no idea what are they suggesting instead, but given an eternity of undeserving torrment or simply ceasing to exist - I'll take the latter.
    Both of which were caused by the Jailer lol

    Jailer: *breaks the machine*
    Also Jailer: look guys the machine is broken we should just destroy it

  3. #43
    I do think there will be some major change to the structure of the Shadowlands indirectly, but we'll still have to stop her and get retribution for all the harm she's done. Like Devos was indirectly right about the path being flawed, but "let's ally with the Maw instead and kill the kyrian of Bastion" was not the correct solution.

    They're definitely planting seeds of doubt in Sylvanas through Anduin, but what will be the fruit of those seeds is anyone's guess.

    If there's any way I want things to go now, it would be Mawduin killing Sylvanas. She had the opportunity to listen to him and let him go, failed, and deserves the consequences.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2021-04-16 at 09:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I do think there will be some major change to the structure of the Shadowlands indirectly, but we'll still have to stop her and get retribution for all the harm she's done. Like Devos was indirectly right about the path being flawed, but "let's ally with the Maw instead and kill the kyrian of Bastion" was not the correct solution.

    They're definitely planting seeds of doubt in Sylvanas through Anduin, but what will be the fruit of those seeds is anyone's guess.

    If there's any way I want things to go now, it would be Mawduin killing Sylvanas. She had the opportunity to listen to him and let him go, failed, and deserves the consequences.
    What would be amazing is instead of dieing Sylvanas gets bound to either Anduin or another Lich King again losing her freewill all over again.

    I also wonder if the Jailer is actually evil or just the way he is because his Heart was taken. When he finally gets his heart back he will change and try to fix what he has done. I still think the First ones took his kingdom from him and forced changes on the realm of death. Zovaal might have killed one and was punished for it.

    Blizzard also talked about Domination magic being its own type of magic does is it another school? Like Light/void/fel ect... that we dont know about? Perhaps the Jailer isn't even in control himself considering he is covered in the runes and chains. There could always be a 3rd party pulling the strings.
    Last edited by Felrane; 2021-04-16 at 10:14 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Shoggoth View Post
    A revamp of Northrend for one patch? I doubt it.
    Not for the whole continent. Just a zone or two.

    Icecrown and Stormpeaks most likely. Like what they did with Arathi and Darkshore, give them a visual update and add new stuff.

  6. #46
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    No. I've been speculating for some time that this will be another 2 patch expansion like WoD.

    And it doesn't necessarily correlate to lore either. It's easy to see why marketing-wise it'd be smarter to push for a 2 patch expansion. 9.1 is already coming very late, 10.0 would have to come out in 2023 if they intend to push for a 9.3 patch... and that's simply too late for a new expansion, it would mean a significant money loss for Activision Blizzard.

    Seems like the story is already wrapping up to. Jailer is literally attacking Oribos where the final key is (Arbiter), it doesn't take a genius to figure out 9.2 is likely going to be the final patch of Shadowlands.
    Well obviously I've been favoring the two patch route for weeks now, but the datamine supports it. I mean the game just introduced the idea of the keys, yet, but the Jailer gets a hold of at least two of the four. Kel'Thuzad and Sylvanas are dealth with, Torghast is destroyed. Storywise we will be done with this onsense before 9.2

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by shuubu View Post
    "dudes, I was on your side all along and we must save Manduin and stop the Janitor" .
    lol nice .

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Question. If during this raid the Jailer goes to Oribos and Sylvanas destroys torghast (or somethin) are people really expecting two more patches out of this story?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Nope. From a cosmic standpoint maybe. From a franchise standpoint? The Jailer is a fucking nobody while Sylvanas is one of the faces of WarCraft, featuring in more opening cinematics than any other character.
    From a franchise standpoint, it doesn't matter if Sylvanas is one of the main faces. The Jailer is still the main antagonist of the expansion, and is way above Sylvanas in every way, shape or form.

    "are people really expecting two more patches out of this story?" I'd say it's early to tell. Reminder that people thought BFA would have 2 patches also.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Well obviously I've been favoring the two patch route for weeks now, but the datamine supports it. I mean the game just introduced the idea of the keys, yet, but the Jailer gets a hold of at least two of the four. Kel'Thuzad and Sylvanas are dealth with, Torghast is destroyed. Storywise we will be done with this onsense before 9.2
    What suggests it the most as I said is not story but financial reasons, maybe people in this Story forum don't realize it but 9.1 is super late.

    8.1 came out 4 months after BfA's release, people who thought BfA wasn't going to have 8.3 were delusional since the timeline aligned with a third content patch, but it's massively different for Shadowlands. The earliest option for 9.1 is june (assuming the PTR goes very smoothly), that's already 7 months after release, it is very delayed. Good luck squeezing in a third content patch while pushing for a new expansion release at the end of 2022 to maximize profits in Q4 of 2022.

    So Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Bobby Kotick decided that Shadowlands won't have a 9.3. Companies don't give a shit about story when planning new content updates, WoD is the evidence of that.
    Some will tell you that the Light is the only path. The only weapon that can stop the enemies of Azeroth. But we see alternatives. Many roads, many possibilities, that are open to us. There will be those who doubt you. Who question your resolve, your ability to harness powers that have caused the downfall of weaker wills. Together, we will prove them wrong.

  10. #50
    the void lords will enter through the shadowlands
    as nzoth says "only i can save you from what is to come"

    9 ravens? 9 kyrian boss, lord of ravens? odyn is back?
    at the hour of her 3rd death, clearly sylvanas, and lets just be honest the devs probably forgot about the whole silverpine thing and that dosent count so it would indeed be her 3rd death

  11. #51
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    What suggests it the most as I said is not story but financial reasons, maybe people in this Story forum don't realize it but 9.1 is super late.
    No kidding. By now every expansion had its first major content patch and Legion even had its second. We are 144 days in and the PTR just began this week.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Let's not go that far. Besides, Sylvanas is essentially a throwaway at the end of the day. The Jailer's the big boi.
    Sylvanas won't be going anywhere, she will be another Azshara/Kerrigan 2.0, where we will defeat her, but she ends up being around for future use. It is hinted for a while that she will be important for the inevitable Void expansion.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    No kidding. By now every expansion had its first major content patch and Legion even had its second. We are 144 days in and the PTR just began this week.
    "But we still don't know what the Jailer wants!!"

    To be honest I don't think that's a good enough reason for Activision Blizzard. Something tells me that Bobby Kotick doesn't care too much about the Jailer's motivations.

    ... And maybe the Jailer simply isn't meant to be more than a generic evil villain. People here constantly theorize that "Oh maybe the Jailer is the good guy, maybe he wants to free everyone, maybe he's secretly the good guy!", but Warcraft is such a simple story. If a character constantly spews nonsense like "Your world is mine!", "You cannot stop me!", "No one can escape me!", "Foolish mortals!", "I will destroy you foolish mortals!", then maybe they are indeed just evil
    Some will tell you that the Light is the only path. The only weapon that can stop the enemies of Azeroth. But we see alternatives. Many roads, many possibilities, that are open to us. There will be those who doubt you. Who question your resolve, your ability to harness powers that have caused the downfall of weaker wills. Together, we will prove them wrong.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    From a franchise standpoint, it doesn't matter if Sylvanas is one of the main faces. The Jailer is still the main antagonist of the expansion, and is way above Sylvanas in every way, shape or form.

    "are people really expecting two more patches out of this story?" I'd say it's early to tell. Reminder that people thought BFA would have 2 patches also.
    It would make sense for 9.2 to be the last patch of expansion to wrap up this part of the story, finish off Jailer and setup the whatever next shit we directly/indirectly unleash next. It won't be the first.

    I almost expect Nazi Light to be next. Here's the setup - Jailer and Manduin assault Stormwind, Turalyon scared shitless shuffles his lighbulb contacts who come to aid us, but at the same time sells our guts to them... -or- could be same shit, but Void with Alleria, but my bet is Light, it's not accident it's prominent in Revendreth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    ... And maybe the Jailer simply isn't meant to be more than a generic evil villain. People here constantly theorize that "Oh maybe the Jailer is the good guy, maybe he wants to free everyone, maybe he's secretly the good guy!", but Warcraft is such a simple story. If a character constantly spews nonsense like "Your world is mine!", "You cannot stop me!", "No one can escape me!", "Foolish mortals!", "I will destroy you foolish mortals!", then maybe they are indeed just evil
    It is really, yeah there is some sappy "ama betrayed by muh braddahs and sistahs", but I bet the reveal would be that it's just him having some cray cray idea about how things should be and them deciding that it's better to lock him away in a loontown before he fucks up everything.

    Ultimately he does strike me as a one expansion villain, he is wholly contained in one expansion - he's not Sargeras or even N'zoth who had actual ominous presence in previous expansions one way or another. Yes he got tied to just about every major lore event Blizz could think of, but it all really happened in this expansion - "Oh btw, this new guy? He did it all along!"... that is in before some other guy we learn of in 12.0 orchestrated him orchestrating everything.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    It would make sense for 9.2 to be the last patch of expansion to wrap up this part of the story, finish off Jailer and setup the whatever next shit we directly/indirectly unleash next. It won't be the first.

    I almost expect Nazi Light to be next. Here's the setup - Jailer and Manduin assault Stormwind, Turalyon scared shitless shuffles his lighbulb contacts who come to aid us, but at the same time sells our guts to them... -or- could be same shit, but Void with Alleria, but my bet is Light, it's not accident it's prominent in Revendreth.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It is really, yeah there is some sappy "ama betrayed by muh braddahs and sistahs", but I bet the reveal would be that it's just him having some cray cray idea about how things should be and them deciding that it's better to lock him away in a loontown before he fucks up everything.

    Ultimately he does strike me as a one expansion villain, he is wholly contained in one expansion - he's not Sargeras or even N'zoth who had actual ominous presence in previous expansions one way or another. Yes he got tied to just about every major lore event Blizz could think of, but it all really happened in this expansion - "Oh btw, this new guy? He did it all along!"... that is in before some other guy we learn of in 12.0 orchestrated him orchestrating everything.
    Yes, this is precisely why Jailer is not and will never be as iconic as Sargeras and N'Zoth.

    Sargeras and N'Zoth were actually built up throughout many expansions and their deeds were portrayed in a way that felt natural. Sargeras has been built up since WC3 with the Tomb of Sargeras and he obviously had a lot of screentime in the War of the Ancients novels, N'Zoth was built up since Cataclysm as the mastermind who orchestrated Deathwing's rise and the Cataclysm.

    Jailer? Like you said he literally came out of nowhere in this expansion. And while some around this forum might be in awe at how much stuff he "planned" and "influenced" (not making names), it is all extremely artificial. It's easy to be influential when Blizzard retcons half the established lore for you.

    In other words, Sargeras and N'Zoth levelled to 60 the old way, while Jailer bought the level boost.
    Some will tell you that the Light is the only path. The only weapon that can stop the enemies of Azeroth. But we see alternatives. Many roads, many possibilities, that are open to us. There will be those who doubt you. Who question your resolve, your ability to harness powers that have caused the downfall of weaker wills. Together, we will prove them wrong.

  16. #56
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    "But we still don't know what the Jailer wants!!"

    To be honest I don't think that's a good enough reason for Activision Blizzard. Something tells me that Bobby Kotick doesn't care too much about the Jailer's motivations.

    ... And maybe the Jailer simply isn't meant to be more than a generic evil villain. People here constantly theorize that "Oh maybe the Jailer is the good guy, maybe he wants to free everyone, maybe he's secretly the good guy!", but Warcraft is such a simple story. If a character constantly spews nonsense like "Your world is mine!", "You cannot stop me!", "No one can escape me!", "Foolish mortals!", "I will destroy you foolish mortals!", then maybe they are indeed just evil
    Well that depends. Contrast the ARR portrayal of Ascians in FFXIV compared to ShB. They are masked cultist with metal spikes on their black robes and always spew nonsense about wanting to cause the apocalypse. Yet you end up crying when you kill the leaders. So it is possible to write more complex personalities and motivations for villains who look generic. But it needs a writing team that is willing and able to do so. And of course focus. Occasionally looking at what he talks about with Sylvanas is not enough to develop a character. Denathrius works as a villain because he interacts with player characters and does stuff to them.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    So Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Bobby Kotick decided that Shadowlands won't have a 9.3. Companies don't give a shit about story when planning new content updates, WoD is the evidence of that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    "But we still don't know what the Jailer wants!!"

    To be honest I don't think that's a good enough reason for Activision Blizzard. Something tells me that Bobby Kotick doesn't care too much about the Jailer's motivations.

    ... And maybe the Jailer simply isn't meant to be more than a generic evil villain. People here constantly theorize that "Oh maybe the Jailer is the good guy, maybe he wants to free everyone, maybe he's secretly the good guy!", but Warcraft is such a simple story. If a character constantly spews nonsense like "Your world is mine!", "You cannot stop me!", "No one can escape me!", "Foolish mortals!", "I will destroy you foolish mortals!", then maybe they are indeed just evil
    I mean, there is a possibility that the storywriters planned for the Jailer to be something else later into the story. But I agree, with how delayed 9.1 is, I wouldn't be surprised if they completely changed their plans on how the story should progress (basically like in WoD) and said "Screw it, let the Jailer remain as an evil, cartoonish villain with no character and motive other than 'raaawrrr me kill and rule', not like anyone liked him anyway".

    So yeah, whatever potential Shadowlands could have, I expect it all to be thrown into trashcan and the rest of the story to end with something clitche like WoD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I almost expect Nazi Light to be next. Here's the setup - Jailer and Manduin assault Stormwind, Turalyon scared shitless shuffles his lighbulb contacts who come to aid us, but at the same time sells our guts to them... -or- could be same shit, but Void with Alleria, but my bet is Light, it's not accident it's prominent in Revendreth.
    The Void was also present in the Bastion. Anyway, what I expect is the Light vs the Void expansion next. It's all very clear by now that all cosmos forces fight each other to be the one to claim Azeroth (for whatever reason). The Legion was pacified, we'll stop the Jailer next, so I guess the Void and the Light will become a lot more active in their ways to claim Azeroth - we know the Void can do a lot better than that, and the Light doesn't seem to be trying at all for now, but there's no reason to believe the Light is morally better than other forces.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Yes, this is precisely why Jailer is not and will never be as iconic as Sargeras and N'Zoth.


    true, but too bad danuser and his writing team think the Jailer is some menacing/threatening villain that we care about. As a result, Nzoth and Sargeras were rushed and wasted :/

    Quote Originally Posted by TickTickTick View Post
    but there's no reason to believe the Light is morally better than other forces.


    how so? there are plenty of reasons to believe that beings of light are morally better than other forces (we're not talking about wielding light itself, as anyone can do that, good or evil)

    the naaru have largely done nothing but help/guide/protect/sacrifice for the benefit of others. Only Xe'ra was going fanatic with wanting illidan, but even then she had a reason of wanting to end the long war against the legion.

    now sure, I've seen some people try and argue that the naaru only help us cause it benefits them against their enemies... but the fact is that said enemies are the legion/void, and both legion/void are completely evil and not good for the cosmos. And the light is really the main force protecting the cosmos from those evils.

    also Xe'ra =/= other naaru (and all other naaru we've seen/interacted with have been good), naaru =/= light itself

    now ya, Danuser has this dumb obsession with "everything morally grey" and is forcing that on all the cosmic forces, especially with the naaru... but man it's going to be a real detriment to the story seeing as the comics forces are all going to just end up as "which shade of color wants control" if it does happen -_-
    Last edited by voidox; 2021-04-17 at 10:30 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by voidox View Post
    how so? there are plenty of reasons to believe that beings of light are morally better than other forces (we're not talking about wielding light itself, as anyone can do that, good or evil)

    the naaru have largely done nothing but help/guide/protect/sacrifice for the benefit of others. Only Xe'ra was going fanatic with wanting illidan, but even then she had a reason of wanting to end the long war against the legion.

    now sure, I've seen some people try and argue that the naaru only help us cause it benefits them against their enemies... but the fact is that said enemies are the legion/void, and both legion/void are completely evil and not good for the cosmos. And the light is really the main force protecting the cosmos from those evils.

    also Xe'ra =/= other naaru (and all other naaru we've seen/interacted with have been good), naaru =/= light itself

    now ya, Danuser has this dumb obsession with "everything morally grey" and is forcing that on all the cosmic forces, especially with the naaru... but man it's going to be a real detriment to the story seeing as the comics forces are all going to just end up as "which shade of color wants control" if it does happen -_-
    Xera is not exactly a rogue agent, it's just example of what Light does given enough time and home turf. Add to this whole Maghar thing and some writings and it's pretty clear that Light wants to reimagine universe in its own image just about as every other major force.

    Yes, Light for a good chunk of time was associated with good for players, but it did not really have a free reign unopposed. There really is no reason to assume that Light won't aim to fill the void left by other powers once they diminish and heck it's influence is about as corrupting as void really, it's just "nice" corruption - the kind where you don't pay attention you even became the thrall, like Xera brainwashing Army of Light.

  20. #60
    Without reading into any of this, my speculation is that it's something related to the void or the nathrezim.

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