[Potential spoilers]Sylvanas, the Convergence of the Shadowlands, and the Great Truth

[Triceron]

Idk man 10,0 will not be out for a long time, i try to live in the now anyway and dont care that much either, we will see what happends.

Doesn't need to be out, just announced. And that's to be expected sometime next year, depending when the last raid is about to be launched.

Blizzard tends to spill the beans on a new expansion and the final raid of the current expansion at the same Blizzcon.

[doodle90]

If we defeat the jailer in 9.2 then 9.3 would obviously be the bridge story between SL and next expansion. Right now we also have the Nathrezim in the background and are not sure if they truely support the jailer or if they are just manipulating him too like they have every other force. They could be the bridge. I think the realm of death breaks and thats how we get the covenant races as allied races.

[Le Conceptuel]

That is fantasy old race syndrome 101. It's the same reason why the elf races and especially the draenei and the Lightforged act exactly like (incompetent) people and are upstaged by humans at every turn. We rock up to these cosmic powers in five minutes tell them about our spirit and they upend their entire system. The afterlife, by virtue of its infinite options even tailors to humans.

The most interesting parts of Shadowlands are when it goes full ham in the opposite direction. People take the piss out of the Kyrian being legendarily thick in how they continually dunk people into the Maw even when they know it's fucked purely because it's their job or how the Archon goes "cool story" to both Uther and Devos before blowing them off, but the Kyrian are actually the closes to acting like people who've had milennia to refine their way to serve their exact consensus and don't exist to pander to mortality. Ditto the selection process - the most interesting part of Revendreth's selection was what was cut in the Beta, namely that one Blood Knight who did make a nuclear bomb and use it, but was spared from the Maw not because of any conventional virtue as we'd see it but because he was able to manipulate the Light and to people who fear the Light like the Venthyr that was an important trait. Maldraxxus in turn has the Venthyr theoretician text who goes on about how the souls there are on average probably worse than those in their care, but useful, so they get away with things the Venthyr are meant to cut out otherwise. Hell, Emeni asks you to project her soul into mortal life so she can go around cleaving down the descendants of Sethrak who piss her off.

The game flirts with these ideas, but it is too afraid to commit to actually alien belief systems and the both more bleak and more interesting aspects of an objective afterlife. Much like with the factions it hurtles towards this blandness event horizon which is why all these edges are sanded off. Given there's a questline called 'A New Path' going further I am dead certain the Kyrian will become more conventionally good because of the love of mortals, ergo more boring. Maldraxxus will likely come out the best of this. We don't need to have these groups be infallible, but we need them to act like they're infallible and to have little motive to change, emphasizing that without outside factors the system runs as intended and is generally functional. Committed groups are more interesting and it'd make the baddie's goal more compelling when reform isn't a snap of the fingers away.

Honestly, I've always thought since the start that it actually seemed like the message ought to be that the Kyrians would be right and that it is a terrible idea to leave sending people to the afterlife to people who could have severe personal biases against good people - think of how an Orc may go to Bastion, then suddenly come across a Human who was a good person in life, but due to his Horde-centric morality, goes against his programming and tosses him right in the Maw.

The thing about having superior powers isn't that they necessarily have to be alien - it's just that in a world where we can verifiably prove higher powers exist, those higher powers ought to be treated as objectively correct since they likely define morality or at least have a more objective view on material than our limited, subjective understanding of what defines morality. It would have made for a more interesting plot if we came storming into Bastion after getting a few red flags of authoritarianism, but then we're hit with the point of "no, dude, these guys need to lose their memories or seriously bad shit happens". They edge at that, but they never really take the full delve. The bit with Alexandros finding out why he went to Maldraxxus was fun - it's a shame they never focused on that for the whole thing.

It should've been more simply in my opinion; just make Sylvie the baddie who is trying to undo the system because she's pissy that bad things happened to her, and she's objectively bad because she's trying to destroy a system that's working perfectly.

[Super Dickmann]

Honestly, I've always thought since the start that it actually seemed like the message ought to be that the Kyrians would be right and that it is a terrible idea to leave sending people to the afterlife to people who could have severe personal biases against good people - think of how an Orc may go to Bastion, then suddenly come across a Human who was a good person in life, but due to his Horde-centric morality, goes against his programming and tosses him right in the Maw.

The thing about having superior powers isn't that they necessarily have to be alien - it's just that in a world where we can verifiably prove higher powers exist, those higher powers ought to be treated as objectively correct since they likely define morality or at least have a more objective view on material than our limited, subjective understanding of what defines morality. It would have made for a more interesting plot if we came storming into Bastion after getting a few red flags of authoritarianism, but then we're hit with the point of "no, dude, these guys need to lose their memories or seriously bad shit happens". They edge at that, but they never really take the full delve. The bit with Alexandros finding out why he went to Maldraxxus was fun - it's a shame they never focused on that for the whole thing.

It should've been more simply in my opinion; just make Sylvie the baddie who is trying to undo the system because she's pissy that bad things happened to her, and she's objectively bad because she's trying to destroy a system that's working perfectly.

This is one of the situations where the game somewhat addresses it for a change in that the Kyrian aren't cast as evil. We don't need a special reason for why wiping out memories are bad, the obvious problem of having biased people be able to punt you into eternal damnation is clear enough. Ditto we didn't need the Forsworn to be agents of the Jailer. It means that there is actually no narrative weight to the most glaring problem with the Kyrian brainwashing routine, namely the part where they've knowingly thrown everyone into the Maw ever since the system broke because nobody explicitly told them not to or had the authority to do so.

The various Death related powers being objectively correct would both be impossible to carry out given Blizzard's barking morality, see Krastinov, Vashj etc, but also would be a bad narrative choice on its own. Death has never been associated with any regular virtues. Presenting it as self-sustaining but pretty much inconsistent has been one of the better routes the game's gone in. If you were to say the same about say, the Light, I'd agree, because it's been associated with heaven and general human virtues since it was added in. Ditto if you were to say the same with the Void. But the Shadowlands'd work best as a sort of old style Pantheon where where you end up is based not on you, but what the powers that be decide for you based on the utility you have and their individual preference and standards.

As it stands it's neither one or the other. The system is obviously naff, but it is neither alien nor amoral, while the baddies are comically bad and their agenda comically vague.

[Le Conceptuel]

This is one of the situations where the game somewhat addresses it for a change in that the Kyrian aren't cast as evil. We don't need a special reason for why wiping out memories are bad, the obvious problem of having biased people be able to punt you into eternal damnation is clear enough. Ditto we didn't need the Forsworn to be agents of the Jailer. It means that there is actually no narrative weight to the most glaring problem with the Kyrian brainwashing routine, namely the part where they've knowingly thrown everyone into the Maw ever since the system broke because nobody explicitly told them not to or had the authority to do so.

The various Death related powers being objectively correct would both be impossible to carry out given Blizzard's barking morality, see Krastinov, Vashj etc, but also would be a bad narrative choice on its own. Death has never been associated with any regular virtues. Presenting it as self-sustaining but pretty much inconsistent has been one of the better routes the game's gone in. If you were to say the same about say, the Light, I'd agree, because it's been associated with heaven and general human virtues since it was added in. Ditto if you were to say the same with the Void. But the Shadowlands'd work best as a sort of old style Pantheon where where you end up is based not on you, but what the powers that be decide for you based on the utility you have and their individual preference and standards.

As it stands it's neither one or the other. The system is obviously naff, but it is neither alien nor amoral, while the baddies are comically bad and their agenda comically vague.

One thing I think that could have helped would have perhaps been to make it a little more Lawful Neutral, since you do raise a very good point and I'll alter my presupposition to be that you're correct. Rather than Greco-Roman-style Pantheon mindset, perhaps it would have been more fascinating if it were like the Chinese Heavenly Bureaucracy and more emphasis was put on not only the utility of your presence in a different afterlife, but also maybe focused on something else; ferrying people to other afterlives.

Perhaps the Shadowlands Bureaucracy, with the Arbiter's computer-like personality being exaggerated to the point of being a perfectly Lawful Neutral, dispassionate figure, could have been about not only feeding itself by sending souls to different afterlives in the Shadowlands like Maldraxxus, but it actually was a very neutral force in itself that worked with the others. That would also emphasize the Light and other such things as still being major figures for their worshippers and even making these figures their final destinations while making the Shadowlands more than just "generic afterlife". It could have been about sending you wherever in the cosmos your soul was supposed to go, with Maldraxxus defending the machine, Ardenweald overseeing reincarnation in combination with the Emerald Dream, Revendreth helping purge your soul of its sins, and Bastion ferrying you around still all being their prime purposes, but with everything being all about them being transitory phases except for certain souls that really fit with them. So, for example, you worship the Light, so when you die, the boys in Bastion pick you up and bring you to the Arbiter, who declares you morally-fit to go there in accordance with what the Light teaches, so her Kyrians drop you off at the Light, while if you come from a Shamanistic religion, the Arbiter lets you dwell in the Veil to govern others, etc. etc.

Basically, instead of the Shadowlands being the final destination, it could have been the bureaucracy that governs where souls go and how, with not only the countless realms there but every other realm also being present. Maybe the Arbiter judges you based on your own religion's values, so things like mercy will get you going straight to the Light if you worship it, but if you're part of a more barbaric warrior faith, maybe she'd view that as a sin and thus send you to Revendreth instead so they can get rid of it for you to go wherever your people are supposed to go. That could have also made it morally alien without necessarily being flawed on such a deep level.

[Super Dickmann]

Cut for space...

Basically, instead of the Shadowlands being the final destination, it could have been the bureaucracy that governs where souls go and how, with not only the countless realms there but every other realm also being present. Maybe the Arbiter judges you based on your own religion's values, so things like mercy will get you going straight to the Light if you worship it, but if you're part of a more barbaric warrior faith, maybe she'd view that as a sin and thus send you to Revendreth instead so they can get rid of it for you to go wherever your people are supposed to go. That could have also made it morally alien without necessarily being flawed on such a deep level.

I really like this idea in general and the Heavenly Bureaucracy is the analogy I was fishing for but completely forgot to pick up on. Having the Shadowlands as an in-between station would solve a whole host of overall problems with the expansion, especially its most galling ones. That being the demystification of death and the removal of all prior afterlife lore and the 'tell, don't show' cop-out element of being constantly told there's infinite afterlives and yet only seeing a couple. The narrative benefits'd extend past that and onto both the villain motivations and their overall cosmic power train they're going on. A hypothetical Jailer character would still be Satan in that case but rather than an obtuse hidden motive you could have him push to make Death a player rather than an increasingly perfunctory step, since with every other power encroaching on their trade they'd cease to be and they need to be proactive. He'd then have been imprisoned for disrupting the proper order of things.

In turn, it'd make the role of other powers relative to it more obvious in conflict and prevent the issue of them all being recolors of each other. With the Light you'd want to go in because why should some souls have to repent when they can repent before the divine directly? Why bother with in-betweens if you can save souls while they still live or when you grab hold of them? Why should anyone have damnation if they can (forcibly) be taught the error of their ways? The Void would see it as a free soul buffet. And any kind of undead would keep their taboo nature because they'd be thumbing their nose at both the in-between nature of the Shadowlands and all other powers that want their soul. You'd thus have a more clear reason why the Maldraxxus powers used to keep a sustaining army would be seen as abhorrent to everyone when transplanted to the physical realm.

[Le Conceptuel]

I really like this idea in general and the Heavenly Bureaucracy is the analogy I was fishing for but completely forgot to pick up on. Having the Shadowlands as an in-between station would solve a whole host of overall problems with the expansion, especially its most galling ones. That being the demystification of death and the removal of all prior afterlife lore and the 'tell, don't show' cop-out element of being constantly told there's infinite afterlives and yet only seeing a couple. The narrative benefits'd extend past that and onto both the villain motivations and their overall cosmic power train they're going on. A hypothetical Jailer character would still be Satan in that case but rather than an obtuse hidden motive you could have him push to make Death a player rather than an increasingly perfunctory step, since with every other power encroaching on their trade they'd cease to be and they need to be proactive. He'd then have been imprisoned for disrupting the proper order of things.

In turn, it'd make the role of other powers relative to it more obvious in conflict and prevent the issue of them all being recolors of each other. With the Light you'd want to go in because why should some souls have to repent when they can repent before the divine directly? Why bother with in-betweens if you can save souls while they still live or when you grab hold of them? Why should anyone have damnation if they can (forcibly) be taught the error of their ways? The Void would see it as a free soul buffet. And any kind of undead would keep their taboo nature because they'd be thumbing their nose at both the in-between nature of the Shadowlands and all other powers that want their soul. You'd thus have a more clear reason why the Maldraxxus powers used to keep a sustaining army would be seen as abhorrent to everyone when transplanted to the physical realm.

Indeed. The thing about Shadowlands is it actually has a lot of good ideas in it, they just should have ironed them out. Everything seems too discombobulated, there's minimal connection between anything, and they couldn't build it up correctly. The idea of exploring something truly and sincerely alien is quite fun, and if they had more time to work on it or a little more passion for the story, it could have turned out as an amazing expansion, story-wise.

[Thage]

I'm sure they'll take her in an exciting and unforeseen direzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Let's be honest here they're going to do the dumbest thing possible which is just copy+paste the Kerrigan storyline from Heart of the Swarm where she turns into a space angel and saves us all, and because she did one half-decent thing in her entire existence, the literal lifetime of horrific shit she did will get brushed under the rug because if there's one thing Azerothians beat their meat to, it's whitewashing their heroes and refusing to acknowledge they've ever so much as jaywalked.

[voidox]

Xera is not exactly a rogue agent, it's just example of what Light does given enough time and home turf. Add to this whole Maghar thing and some writings and it's pretty clear that Light wants to reimagine universe in its own image just about as every other major force.

woah woah, that's quite a leap right there

AU draenor was Xe'ra, again, it's only been her showing this more fanatical side. Xe'ra =/= all naaru and importantly, naaru =/= light itself

so ya, Xe'ra might want to do that but it in no way means other naaru or the light itself (lightlords for example) want that. Also main universe Xe'ra wanted to defeat the legion, that was her plan and she never showed anything about wanting to control the universe or w.e. AU Xe'ra is her own thing doing what she did

also naaru are BEINGS of light, just like other cosmic forces have beings. And we have seen other beings of forces do things differently to others.

EDIT - and there are many examples of some being doing different than the other beings of that race.

Sargeras went crazy and against his other titans, so by your logic, that would mean ALL titans are secretly evil and want to destroy all life. Or in this expansion, Jailer being evil would mean (by your logic) that all beings of death want to be evil or w.e... I could go on, but the point is that we know is not the case for all these examples. So why would Xe'ra be any different in regards to her and other naaru?

exceptions don't make the rule as they say~

Yes, Light for a good chunk of time was associated with good for players, but it did not really have a free reign unopposed. There really is no reason to assume that Light won't aim to fill the void left by other powers once they diminish and heck it's influence is about as corrupting as void really, it's just "nice" corruption - the kind where you don't pay attention you even became the thrall, like Xera brainwashing Army of Light.

nah, this is you making assumptions and shifting things to suit your narrative here :/

light wasn't just associated with good, naaru were literally doing good things for others: protection/guidance/healing/sacrifice/so on, at times doing these things when it had nothing to do with fighting other cosmic powers.

also "nice" corruption? what? characters wielding light have never once had to deal with corruption that way wielding fel/void does. No voices or changes to body or anything to do with corruption. There is no "nice" corruption cause there is no corruption at all with using light. We've seen good/evil characters use light.

and no, there is no reason to assume light will aim to "fill the void left by other powers" cause all you have to show for that is Xe'ra, and like I've gone over already, Xe'ra =/= other naaru and naaru are beings of light only.

[Soon-TM]

That would be cool, though I think that probably Jailer will storm through Oribos and move on to Azeroth - he seems to want to break out of Shadowlands.

As a matter of fact, I almost expect the last raid to be Anduin returning to Stormwind, Arthas style, to take it for Jailer.

Swapping the expansion's main hub and a "Siege of Stormwind" in this twisted fashion would be definitely nice, and would make the story remarkably more interesting. But we'll see :/

[TickTickTick]

Well, seeing as there are some 9.1 skyboxes showing (or, well, intending to show) Icecrown through the veil (similarly as in Icecrown we can see the Maw) it's more and more obvious we're going back to Azeroth in 9.2.

[Nyel]

I wonder if this "convergence" will end up being that point where the top of Torghast meets the veil to Azeroth, where the top of ICC is as well.

This.

Azshara 2.0

Also this.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, seeing as there are some 9.1 skyboxes showing (or, well, intending to show) Icecrown through the veil (similarly as in Icecrown we can see the Maw) it's more and more obvious we're going back to Azeroth in 9.2.

And finally this.

Pretty sure in 9.2 we're going back to Azeroth which eventually means it'll be the final patch for Shadowlands.

[Addiena]

Stage One: A Cycle of Hatred:
"We have forgotten what makes us strong."
Players battle against Sylvanas atop Torghast while the Jailer remains elusive.

Upon reaching 80% health, Sylvanas chains all players with [Domination Chains], then casts [Rive], destroying the tower itself.

Sylvanas enters [Banshee Form], taking to the skies to waylay players' persuit of the Jailer as he ascends. Thrall and Jaina lend their aid by casting [Call Earth] and [Channel Ice], respectively, but must be kept free from interruptions while doing so.

Sylvanas follows the players' traversal, greeting them for the final showdown between Death and inevitability in the Jailer's master plan.



So I assume Jailer is trying to ascend to the Oribos. Cinematic may take place in Oribos...

EDIT: Yeah he is going to Seat of the Arbiter https://imgur.com/gallery/FfqGR7P

Could it be that the Jailer was the original Arbiter before the current one was put in place ?

[Hellspawn]

At this point it's starting to become obvious that "the Purpose" is some kind of mechanical order set up by the First Ones, and that the Jailer and Sylvanas just want to break free from it in the name of free will and self-determination.

The Jailer is Illidan 2.0

Yes, just like the Arbiter itself. My theory is that the Arbiter is a mechanical replacement to what once the position of the Jailer was.

[Nyel]

Blizzard tends to spill the beans on a new expansion and the final raid of the current expansion at the same Blizzcon.

Most likely it'll go like this:

Announcement of 9.2 1-1.5 months before Blizzcon(line?) later this year. The new expansion will get revealed on Blizzcon while we're getting a deep dive into what's to come with 9.2. PTR will go online shortly after Blizzcon, 9.2 launches in January / February, 10.0 launches in Q3/4 2022.

[Alanar]

Doesn't need to be out, just announced. And that's to be expected sometime next year, depending when the last raid is about to be launched.

Blizzard tends to spill the beans on a new expansion and the final raid of the current expansion at the same Blizzcon.

Yea, I see. But that wasnt the point anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

Could it be that the Jailer was the original Arbiter before the current one was put in place ?

This exact thing has been debated over for a long time. Still entirely possible. Who knows.

- - - Updated - - -

This.

Yes, I also truly believe we are going to be at that exact place ontop of the tower, but then ontop of Thorghast instead of icc.

[Stormdash]

We all know she's gonna have her redemption eventually, no fucking surprise from the brain-dead blizzard writers as usual

Brain-dead would be killing off one of the most popular characters in 30 years of lore as an unambiguous villain. You will alienate far more of your audience doing that than by killing her with some sort of Darth Vader moment tacked on at the end. They need to stop measuring the direction of the lore by what makes their (mostly Alliance) content creators pump their fist on twitch.

[Icelin]

Let's be honest here they're going to do the dumbest thing possible which is just copy+paste the Kerrigan storyline from Heart of the Swarm where she turns into a space angel and saves us all,

Tbh I am hoping she goes on the back burner for a while after this expansion. (If she is even still around for whatever they have planned..) More so Jaina. Jaina actually had a story arc and character development. (Most of the story in BFA) Compared to plot device Sylvanas.

It's like Thrall, or Kael, Illidan or Garrosh for example. They put these characters away..eventually someone might come around and be like you remember this character? It's only beneficial. As I am incredibly tired of seeing these two characters that hog all the light. Focus on some other characters for a bit.

[Nyel]

Yes, I also truly believe we are going to be at that exact place ontop of the tower, but then ontop of Thorghast instead of icc.

I just imagine Icecrown Citadel basically being the carbon copy of Torghast in Azeroth. With the Chains he‘s trying to anchor the Shadowlands to Azeroth. So basically the chains he‘s throwing out from Torghast directly anchor on top of Icecrown.

It‘s hard to explain, but I try to visualize it:

> | <

> the pointy end is the top of Torghast
< the pointy end is the top of Icecrown Citadel
| is the veil the Jailer is breaking through

(Now just imagine it 90 degrees turned around where it‘s top = Azeroth and bottom = Shadowlands)

[Alanar]

I just imagine Icecrown Citadel basically being the carbon copy of Torghast in Azeroth. With the Chains he‘s trying to anchor the Shadowlands to Azeroth. So basically the chains he‘s throwing out from Torghast directly anchor on top of Icecrown.

It‘s hard to explain, but I try to visualize it:

> | <

> the pointy end is the top of Torghast
< the pointy end is the top of Icecrown Citadel
| is the veil the Jailer is breaking through

(Now just imagine it 90 degrees turned around where it‘s top = Azeroth and bottom = Shadowlands)

Yea, we saw the top of thorghast upside down from icc. I got ya, I was thinking the same thing

That line or barrier that got shattered is what we see in the sky. The blue sky is azeroth. I cant think of anything else what could make sense.

If we have to believe the escending.. to be the jailers way to go to azeroth, will be from there.