[Potential spoilers]Sylvanas, the Convergence of the Shadowlands, and the Great Truth

[Addiena]

Few things worth noting about Jailer. The quote from the art book:
"Older than reality itself".

Take a look at the chart

What we know as "reality" is that one little circle in the middle. Nothing more than just the physical expanse of the observable universe. That is planets, solar systems, galaxies etc. Shadowlands is not within the observable universe but separate dimension entirely.

So what does it mean when Jailer is "Older than reality itself?"

It means that he existed in a different dimension, that is Shadowlands, before our reality was created.

It's very likely he was the Arbiter in Oribos before our physical universe (our reality) was even created.

All of quotes from Devos, Sylvanas and Jailer start to make sense.

I think I know what the "Great Truth" is now:
The First Ones are the ones who use other cosmic forces as parts to construct our reality.

Our reality (Azeroth etc) is the Jail, souls being sent there to gain anima and grow in power that upon return to the shadowlands are harvested then returned to begin the cycle again ?

[TyrianFC]

I just imagine Icecrown Citadel basically being the carbon copy of Torghast in Azeroth. With the Chains he‘s trying to anchor the Shadowlands to Azeroth. So basically the chains he‘s throwing out from Torghast directly anchor on top of Icecrown.

It‘s hard to explain, but I try to visualize it:

> | <

> the pointy end is the top of Torghast
< the pointy end is the top of Icecrown Citadel
| is the veil the Jailer is breaking through

(Now just imagine it 90 degrees turned around where it‘s top = Azeroth and bottom = Shadowlands)

Basically what you're describing is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e5eYw-QEPI

[Stormdash]

If you are actually attempting to sound sophisticated about the lore of a video game like Warcraft, which was initially made by fantasy nerds obeying "rule of cool" and now is under the direction of a YA author to have ever been some kind of highbrow art is, I kindly request you read a book. Like a real book. One with big pages and more than two sentences per paragraph.

I'm not re-reading Proust to humor you. And, honestly, the Warcraft lore used to be solid A/B tier high fantasy writing, but it's slid way the hell down in good part because they took complicated and ambiguous characters and decided "y'know, we don't have enough one-dimensional heel characters running around". It's like having early-book ASOIAF characters and saying "what we really need is for you to be Skeletor"

[Le Conceptuel]

I'm not re-reading Proust to humor you. And, honestly, the Warcraft lore used to be solid A/B tier high fantasy writing, but it's slid way the hell down in good part because they took complicated and ambiguous characters and decided "y'know, we don't have enough one-dimensional heel characters running around". It's like having early-book ASOIAF characters and saying "what we really need is for you to be Skeletor"

A-tier sounds unlikely. B-tier is a possible solution by the standards of video games. Warcraft III did have some good writing at times, WoW isn't particularly well-written in general save maybe Wrathgate and the surrounding events and a bit of Legion.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Yes, just like the Arbiter itself. My theory is that the Arbiter is a mechanical replacement to what once the position of the Jailer was.

I doubt it since he had his own platform like the other Covenant leaders. That implies, to me at least, he was the leader of his own realm like the others. If he was the original Arbiter then he wouldn't need a platform and would just have her place.

[Aucald]

I'm not re-reading Proust to humor you. And, honestly, the Warcraft lore used to be solid A/B tier high fantasy writing, but it's slid way the hell down in good part because they took complicated and ambiguous characters and decided "y'know, we don't have enough one-dimensional heel characters running around". It's like having early-book ASOIAF characters and saying "what we really need is for you to be Skeletor"

Calling Warcraft's narrative "solid A/B-tier high fantasy writing" is probably gilding the lily a bit much, to be honest. The A and B tiers would be occupied by lofty franchises like the LotR sagas, Rothfuss' The Name of the Wind, Jordan's The Wheel of Time, Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy, and other such works. Even back at its narrative height Warcraft would be on the lower end of C-tier - mostly sketched and without much in the way of world-building, relying more on age and audience recognition than a cohesive narrative. I'm not really on the same "Danuser is the devil" bandwagon that most people on this forum seem to occupy, as I see WoW's current story woes more as a symptom of an ongoing issue than a totemic issue with a single writer. WoW has never paid much heed to its own internal cohesion or continuity, and the damage to said continuity tends to be cumulative as opposed to singular.

[Le Conceptuel]

Calling Warcraft's narrative "solid A/B-tier high fantasy writing" is probably gilding the lily a bit much, to be honest. The A and B tiers would be occupied by lofty franchises like the LotR sagas, Rothfuss' The Name of the Wind, Jordan's The Wheel of Time, Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy, and other such works. Even back at its narrative height Warcraft would be on the lower end of C-tier - mostly sketched and without much in the way of world-building, relying more on age and audience recognition than a cohesive narrative. I'm not really on the same "Danuser is the devil" bandwagon that most people on this forum seem to occupy, as I see WoW's current story woes more as a symptom of an ongoing issue than a totemic issue with a single writer. WoW has never paid much heed to its own internal cohesion or continuity, and the damage to said continuity tends to be cumulative as opposed to singular.

Greatly agreed.

[Stormdash]

Calling Warcraft's narrative "solid A/B-tier high fantasy writing" is probably gilding the lily a bit much, to be honest. The A and B tiers would be occupied by lofty franchises like the LotR sagas, Rothfuss' The Name of the Wind, Jordan's The Wheel of Time, Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy, and other such works. Even back at its narrative height Warcraft would be on the lower end of C-tier - mostly sketched and without much in the way of world-building, relying more on age and audience recognition than a cohesive narrative. I'm not really on the same "Danuser is the devil" bandwagon that most people on this forum seem to occupy, as I see WoW's current story woes more as a symptom of an ongoing issue than a totemic issue with a single writer. WoW has never paid much heed to its own internal cohesion or continuity, and the damage to said continuity tends to be cumulative as opposed to singular.

What on Earth would you put as S-tier?

[Aucald]

What on Earth would you put as S-tier?

My scale would top out at A-tier, because I'm old and the whole "S-tier/SSS-tier" thing is relatively new to me and I don't think of it when I'm thinking of ranking tiers.

[bagina]

What on Earth would you put as S-tier?

The Bible, heh.

*tips fedora*

[Aucald]

The Bible, heh.

*tips fedora*

It's really weird to imagine Sylvanas in a fedora, by the by. My brain temporarily blew a fuse in the attempt, but then it's also been a hell of a week for me.

[tommyhil622]

Bolvar: The Jailer is no more, he who sought to undo death has fallen victim to it.

Arbiter: The position cannot remain vacant, another must take his place.

The Speaker: To maintain the balance of the Shadowlands, a Jailer must exist... but who?

Bolvar: I know one we can use, but will she suffice?

Voljin: The spirits granted me clarity, and now more than ever, i know her true purpose!

Arbiter: I have judged her soul, she will fit the bill, by being the Jailer, she will pay for her crimes...there must always be...a Jailer.

Yea i see this happening...

[Dzonathan]

Our reality (Azeroth etc) is the Jail, souls being sent there to gain anima and grow in power that upon return to the shadowlands are harvested then returned to begin the cycle again ?

Not necessarily about anima specifically as much as our reality being the First One's plaything.

[TheFirstOnes]

Few things worth noting about Jailer. The quote from the art book:
"Older than reality itself".

Take a look at the chart

What we know as "reality" is that one little circle in the middle. Nothing more than just the physical expanse of the observable universe. That is planets, solar systems, galaxies etc. Shadowlands is not within the observable universe but separate dimension entirely.

So what does it mean when Jailer is "Older than reality itself?"

It means that he existed in a different dimension, that is Shadowlands, before our reality was created.

It's very likely he was the Arbiter in Oribos before our physical universe (our reality) was even created.

All of quotes from Devos, Sylvanas and Jailer start to make sense.

I think I know what the "Great Truth" is now:
The First Ones are the ones who use other cosmic forces as parts to construct our reality.

The First Ones could just be the guys that made everything, such as the cities, the forces, etc.

- - - Updated - - -

Bolvar: The Jailer is no more, he who sought to undo death has fallen victim to it.

Arbiter: The position cannot remain vacant, another must take his place.

The Speaker: To maintain the balance of the Shadowlands, a Jailer must exist... but who?

Bolvar: I know one we can use, but will she suffice?

Voljin: The spirits granted me clarity, and now more than ever, i know her true purpose!

Arbiter: I have judged her soul, she will fit the bill, by being the Jailer, she will pay for her crimes...there must always be...a Jailer.

Yea i see this happening...

That MAY or may not happen. Idc if it does (Fuck Sylvanas, let her be the Death queen of hell or some edgy 17 year old highschool girl fantasy shit, idfc), but if it's used in that dialogue...

I'll actually quit the game. Honestly.

- - - Updated - - -

What on Earth would you put as S-tier?

The OG Dragon Ball Manga.

[Hellspawn]

I doubt it since he had his own platform like the other Covenant leaders. That implies, to me at least, he was the leader of his own realm like the others. If he was the original Arbiter then he wouldn't need a platform and would just have her place.

We don't know if that is his place. Also, he got the same chest hole as the arbiter.

[Varodoc]

Bolvar: The Jailer is no more, he who sought to undo death has fallen victim to it.

Arbiter: The position cannot remain vacant, another must take his place.

The Speaker: To maintain the balance of the Shadowlands, a Jailer must exist... but who?

Bolvar: I know one we can use, but will she suffice?

Voljin: The spirits granted me clarity, and now more than ever, i know her true purpose!

Arbiter: I have judged her soul, she will fit the bill, by being the Jailer, she will pay for her crimes...there must always be...a Jailer.

Yea i see this happening...

Good, the sinners shall pay for their sins, an eternity of torment in Hell sounds like a fitting punishment for she who was so obsessed with avoiding Hell.