PvP ilvl changes S2

[Ohvul]

Rated pvp should've been made and balanced to be like challenge modes ages ago.

[ReesePieces]

Such as???

I don't know. That's why I said "might be".

[PixelFox]

Blizzard has created a game where iLevel is almost the sole measure of progress and repeatedly piss off their players by eliminating any possible way for casual players to progress, resulting in a hopelessly toxic community.

[Golden]

I think a lot of people were hoping for something like an ilvl cap in unrated PvP (i.e. maybe anyone over ~210 ilvl gets scaled down to 210). I personally can't see what the game gains by letting people with 233 gear crush people with sub 200 gear.

Allowing such a great gear gap just adds an additional layer of volatility to an already volatile type of content. For example, even if you have 230+ gear, you can still get queued repeatedly with a bunch of sub 200 gear players and lose badly, etc.

[Chilela]

I'm perfectly fine with it. As the system is now, PvP gear is arguably easier to acquire than similar-ilvl gear from other types of content. This change effectively means that PvP gear will be slightly weaker come next season, but not to a point of being non-viable for PvE, whilst generally being the best for PvP content, at least on paper.

[Soon-TM]

The changes mentioned in the OP are good, for what I've read. Now they need to boost PvE drops, because e.g. I went all of 9.0 (until I unsubbed lolz) with the PvP staff, because I didn't get any weapon drops whatsoever from PvE. Well, technically I did, when the vault gave me three offhands to choose from

[Alkizon]

(If I'd playing, the answer would be) No.

In essence, you're now staggering off somewhere in the middle of cycle...

In general, whole PvPvsPvE problem can be briefly described like this:
(intersection) In presence of plane of intersection (within framework of one game, not two), meeting of two characters (in instance with pre-check of preferences, like BG/WM - direct definition of PvP, or random/unmotivated/unpredictable in open world - wPvP) which are at same level of their individual (as percentage of their length at current stage/season of expansion) paths of progress in current conditions leads (without separating characteristics) to advantage bias in one direction or another.
(conflict) With unequal bias of strength (ilvl's bar and speed/ease of its growth) towards PvE, it turns into "freebie" for opposite activity, which also means, that for greater importance, path in PvP should be as fast as possible (so that, even with progress, more preference was given nevertheless to skill, so game will mostly go on rating after all, which directly "PvP people" want), but is equivalent in terms of general strength/role-customizing indicators (to eliminate initial mentioned element of conflict), which (without additional dividing parameters) turns already latter one into freebie = bringing correlation of complexity and rewarding between two activities to common denominator impossible without separation factor.
(separation) In presence of separating both PvP and PvE characteristics (again, within framework of same one game), everything falls into place for each activity (1. no freebies, 2. same lvl/amount of strength/role-customizing indicators, 3. corresponding items offer advantages in their proper use, 4. there is progress which creating some hierarchy/ranking according to duration of participation/own experience of particular activity, and allows more adequately select opponents even outside of rating, but 5. it's not really long, thereof PvP caps' obtainment didn't create really "long" problems for PvE players), and with return of adequate "directional" servers, also goes away unnecessary claims of players to "someone else's choice" in relation to interest in part of everyone's participation in particular activity = complete separation of activities is obtained, still within framework of one game and obeying main rules of open world (without setting unnecessary restrictions and without inventing unnecessary artificial bonuses), leaving solution of particular situation to each player's will...
(no influence) When dividing game into two different ones, all this no longer required, since laws of each can be completely different, due to lack of any plane of interaction (= lack of mutual influence), but game will suffer irreparable damage in such division (even more than their forced division of classes into specs, addition PvP perks and removal of PvP servers).

somewhere in transition. There are not many options here, either they implement full-fledged division of activity (this is a more likely "healthy" scenario given limited implementation of open world and addition of all kinds of perversions like WM) or they will return to PvE rating caps and PvP stats, which would be much more correct. But latter, despite the fact that it's the only complete/working option, is at odds with their current policy of organizing progress, will make them sacrifice too many simplifications that they so industriously organized to make their work easier... so it's unlikely

Current solution is just bandage, crutch that spin out them a little away of inevitable final one. There is no wisdom in it, rather anxiety, and maybe even despair, who knows

[Relapses]

Blizzard has created a game where iLevel is almost the sole measure of progress and repeatedly piss off their players by eliminating any possible way for casual players to progress, resulting in a hopelessly toxic community.

...what? Do you think it's a good thing that players who only do WQs should have the same item levels as players who spend months farming the most difficult content in the game?

[Coldkil]

I like the change. Granted no one is forced to do any kind of content, there's some degree of optimization involved - like you do your weekly M+ because a guaranteed 226 is something you want until you're decked in 226. Same goes for PvP, if it's the best way to gear your character at some point, expect all kind of people flocking into it.

I think this solution kinda ticks all the boxes. The gear is less interesting for PvE players, so they should "contaminate" less the PvP pool - on the other side in PvPis hands down the best gear you can get so you don't have to "waste time" doing activities you're not fond of.

Is it perfect? I don't know but it's a step ahead compared to what we have now. BiS gear for a specific kind of content should come from the content itself - the rest can be a staple but not the best gear you can get imho.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard has created a game where iLevel is almost the sole measure of progress and repeatedly piss off their players by eliminating any possible way for casual players to progress, resulting in a hopelessly toxic community.

Players have invented the concept with gearscore, and Blizzard just made it baseline as it was already. Same with r.io.

Casual players, depends what do you mean with "casuals". If it's "basically only open world", I think there's just a mid-step missing between 200 and 213. Some way to reach 207 would be better imho. Higher than that, you have PvE and PvP and if you don't want to partake in them, though luck.

[TyloBedo]

No I’m not happy about it and I really think they’re jumping the gun with this change.

My biggest complaint with this change is they’re trying to sell it as something PvPers want, when we all know this is 100% so PvEers aren’t “forced” to do PvP to gear. I think this is a reasonable complaint from PvE players but I think with the increased raid loot drops and M+ valor gear this would be a lot less of an issue next season.

PvP gear will already be progressively worse as the expansion goes on because almost all of the gear has a high roll of versatility and it is already starting to give diminishing returns.

[ArenaDk]

This doesnt change that people with meta classes buy a boost in rbg and than join low brackets and annoy everyone who is trying to play normal. Almost every game is against 40k Paladins or warrior. On 1,5 mmr. amazing. If you dont play any meta class its a up hill battle no matter the skill you have

[Nerovar]

Another half-assed solution that only caters to PvE players. If they truly cared about PvP they'd go back to honor/conquest gear without locking higher ilvl behind rating requirements. All this does is increase the barrier for potentially new people who want to climb and for what gain? So that duelists can flex on rivals/challengers?

Only Blizzard can do something so ridiculously stupid as revisiting a previous iteration of gearing, deciding it's better for the game and then introducing a downgraded version of it.

[Jester Joe]

(If I'd playing, the answer would be) No.

In essence, you're now staggering off somewhere in the middle of cycle...
somewhere in transition. There are not many options here, either they implement full-fledged division of activity (this is a more likely "healthy" scenario given limited implementation of open world and addition of all kinds of perversions like WM) or they will return to PvE rating caps and PvP stats, which would be much more correct. But latter, despite the fact that it's the only complete/working option, is at odds with their current policy of organizing progress, will make them sacrifice too many simplifications that they so industriously organized to make their work easier... so it's unlikely

Current solution is just bandage, crutch that spin out them a little away of inevitable final one. There is no wisdom in it, rather anxiety, and maybe even despair, who knows

Ah yes, I remember PvP stats and being completely unable to enter any PvE scenario because even casual guilds would decline you for the Tol Barad raid because "PvP power is a dead stat". Yes, this did happen and remember this was also before cross realm raiding so it wasn't exactly easy to find another group if you're on a lower population server.

A complete division only works if there's absolutely no cross over in interest. But that isn't how it works. There's a reason they abandoned that completely.

[Alkizon]

Ah yes, I remember PvP stats and being completely unable to enter any PvE scenario because even casual guilds would decline you for the Tol Barad raid because "PvP power is a dead stat". Yes, this did happen and remember this was also before cross realm raiding so it wasn't exactly easy to find another group if you're on a lower population server.

A complete division only works if there's absolutely no cross over in interest. But that isn't how it works. There's a reason they abandoned that completely.

You poorly understood what it was about, but don't be offended, you aren't the first, nor are you the last.

A complete separation within MMO is literally two games, interests don't intersect anywhere, there is no world PvP (almost like now) and there is no point in gear being the same, also there is no point in gear as such together with progress, total set of points = stats (almost like talents) are distributed by user decision here're your beloved templates along with customization. They are no longer far from such implementation, and the first big steps in this direction were removal of separating stats, then removal of PvP servers, so practically they're few steps away from apotheosis of idiocy within framework of MMO. I don't know what stops them now, greed for token money, I guess.

Now let's get back to where we started. Who said, that guild that requires PvP stats for PvP encounters, is wrong, who said, that PvE stats were wrong requirements for PvE encounters, you? Everything worked exactly as it should, there was no complete separation of activities as two games, but there was separation of progress and there was control over incoming damage (gap between how much mob gets and how much player, between how much newbie has and how much veteran) and everything else expected from this element of the game. There was choice, there was control, there were strict unveiled specific requirements. Yes, there were problems due to their stupid desire to "emphasize players' strength" by inflation of stats together with ilvl (also design of some elements of equipment, and the last few expansion even generally pile of unnecessary systems, so it stays same to this days, same problems, because they didn't learn and fix main mistake in solving such problem). MoP version was closest to ideal one from point view of consistency in this decision, the most adequate and successful (number and variety of stats, implementation of currency system, progress)... so I recommend you focus your attention on it. It worked then, it would work now, all that had to be done was to fit common denominator of gear, but they didn't make it, and as soon as they cut out stats, everything begun to roll merrily and confidently towards the bottom. They slowed down the process with current decision, but I'm afraid they won't be able to return to the top of this hill, they're likely too proud/stubborn. So be happy now at least even with this decision (I'll not be able to prohibit anything to anyone here). It's still bad, but clearly better than everything what happened after WoD.

Server's population in this case is a problem of different nature and player can't and shouldn't solve such, devs hasn't solved this problem to this day, they simply bought off from it through CRZ and WM (you see, it's difficult for them to unite servers or, more correctly, faithfully organize their social part, but dying servers exactly are indicator of inconsistency of current design) veiled, hidden, made process less obvious, but errors were never corrected.

So either they divide current game into 2 and don't fool people, or they return back to managing game with characteristics, which is ordinary, simple and logical. Just like that. Otherwise, there will always be (and rightfully) dissatisfied people, not because they want something for which they're not worthy or consider unfair, but simply because system will have obvious flaws, it will not work, just like it does now.

It is enough to read what people write even in this topic, they have already forgotten time when it worked "together", no one even tries to think so, they talk about templates again, only in different way (devs, by their actions, have everything in their heads divided), no one even tries to think "but how it would work in open world". So, how would it work? But there're no PvP servers with free will for action, there're no open conflicts, there is only instance PvP (arena and regular battlegrounds (with queue) vs big one (AV, Ashran, WM), what are they waiting for? It remains to give mobs in WM status of PvP targets, give PvP goals/quests and that's it - 2 different games).

[GreenJesus]

I don't get this obsession with "im a PVP player!" "Im a PvE player".. aren't both included in the same download? It should be "im a WoW player". They are both just part of the game. I think blizzard has gotten way too supportive of specialists that want to do only 1 type of content. Blizzard should support getting stronger by playing the whole game.

[Luxeley]

Honor gear is 213 in PvP.

Conquest gear is 226 in PvP.

Like WoD.

Make the rating brackets be for its PvE item level.

Thats not a bad solution, I think you're in the ballpark and its worthy of more discussion. Always seemed extremely dumb that Honor gear capped out at 197 and conquest gear started at 200. If don't do RBGs or Arena there is no point in grinding out a higher i-lvl, 3pts is a joke and it's never been like that since WOW started.

[GreenJesus]

Thats not a bad solution, I think you're in the ballpark and its worthy of more discussion. Always seemed extremely dumb that Honor gear capped out at 197 and conquest gear started at 200. If don't do RBGs or Arena there is no point in grinding out a higher i-lvl, 3pts is a joke and it's never been like that since WOW started.

Yeh conquest gear starting at Normal raid was a complete and utter joke. Why force players to get to 1400 rating? What was the point? 1400 is super easy to do anyway, but many just don't want to do rated. Just grinding out the conquest points is enough work in itself to at least warrant 213 or something. If you want to upgrade it further to 220 (heroic denath and stone generals ilv) then you need 1800 rating which seems relatively fair.

[Jester Joe]

You poorly understood what it was about, but don't be offended, you aren't the first, nor are you the last.

I mean, if multiple people are misunderstanding you, then the fault probably lands with your explanations. Writing a thesis isn't really needed for every explanation. With that in mind then, I'm going to address this step by step.

A complete separation within MMO is literally two games, interests don't intersect anywhere, there is no world PvP (almost like now) and there is no point in gear being the same, also there is no point in gear as such together with progress, total set of points = stats (almost like talents) are distributed by user decision here're your beloved templates along with customization. They are no longer far from such implementation, and the first big steps in this direction were removal of separating stats, then removal of PvP servers, so practically they're few steps away from apotheosis of idiocy within framework of MMO. I don't know what stops them now, greed for token money, I guess.

At what part do you honestly take anything that they're doing as "complete separation"? Interests have always overlapped with PvE and PvP. You're using "interest" as "motivation" instead it seems like, which is just misleading. There's plenty of people interested in both PvE and PvP, I'd wager they far out number the people who refuse to touch the other half of the game even. Motivation, or reason to do it despite disliking it, is a completely different story.

Blizzard's made it easier for people to pick and choose when it comes to World PvP, but that's it. And that was mostly an attempt to try to fix the faction imbalance on servers, not an attempt to separate anything.

Mind you, if they wanted to sell more tokens, they'd leave the servers separate so people would be more motivated to transfer.

Now let's get back to where we started. Who said, that guild that requires PvP stats for PvP encounters, is wrong, who said, that PvE stats were wrong requirements for PvE encounters, you? Everything worked exactly as it should, there was no complete separation of activities as two games, but there was separation of progress and there was control over incoming damage (gap between how much mob gets and how much player, between how much newbie has and how much veteran) and everything else expected from this element of the game. There was choice, there was control, there were strict unveiled specific requirements. Yes, there were problems due to their stupid desire to "emphasize players' strength" by inflation of stats together with ilvl (it stays same to this days, same problems, because they didn't learn and fix main mistake in solving such problem). MoP version was closest to ideal one from point view of consistency in this decision, the most adequate and successful (the number and variety of stats, the implementation of the currency system, progress)... so I recommend you focus your attention on it. It worked then, it would work now, all that had to be done was to fit common denominator of gear, but they didn't make it, and as soon as they cut out stats, everything rolled merrily and confidently towards the bottom. They slowed down the process with current decision, but I'm afraid they won't be able to return to the top of this hill, they're likely too proud/stubborn. So be happy now at least even with this decision (I'll not be able to prohibit anything to anyone here). It's still bad, but clearly better than everything what happened after WoD.

I don't know why you're trying to twist this around.

You're the one who brought up that they should introduce stats again for PvP and PvE specifically. I brought up a reason why that's stupid. And now you're going "But who are you to say they're wrong for enforcing that?!"

Well, first off, let me go with the obvious. Baradin Hold and Wintergrasp, both PvE raids, dropped PvP gear. Good PvP gear too, mind you. So your idea of them being separate is already being shot in the foot there, and shows that it's just silly to refuse players just because they had a bit of PvP power.

Second off, you're being misleading intentionally on this, because in my original post I never said it was exactly wrong, I said it was a dumb design.

Lastly, your final point about MoP is just an argument of arrogance. YOU claim it was best, yet you have no actual statistics about it. And it's a type of argument I see all over these forums honestly, where people seem to think they know better just because Blizzard can make a few silly decisions at times. But at the end of the day, they have all the stats and info they need to make a call about game design, meanwhile you know no more than I do. You're not in a position exactly to say it was "better for the game" or not.

Server's population in this case is a problem of different nature and player can't and shouldn't solve such, devs hasn't solved this problem to this day, they simply bought off from it through CRZ and WM (you see, it's difficult for them to unite servers or, more correctly, faithfully organize their social part, but dying servers exactly are indicator of inconsistency of current design) veiled, hidden, made process less obvious, but errors were never corrected.

So either they divide current game into 2 and don't fool people, or they return back to managing game with characteristics, which is ordinary, simple and logical. Just like that.

They gave a justifiable reason why they can't merge and delete servers (Character names), so why are you trying to act as if there's some hidden meaning that they're failures because they can't?

They could easily mash two servers together, if it's not about difficulty, it's about upsetting the players who are attached to their character name. You're reading far too deep into this to try to push a point that doesn't exist.

Mind you, it's really weird to act as if PvP only stats is a better solution than ilvl changing.

One leads to completely useless stats for PvE. The other allows you to at least use the gear you worked for to still play the other formats. It's as simple as that, the ilvl change is far smoother.

[Luxeley]

Yeh conquest gear starting at Normal raid was a complete and utter joke. Why force players to get to 1400 rating? What was the point? 1400 is super easy to do anyway, but many just don't want to do rated. Just grinding out the conquest points is enough work in itself to at least warrant 213 or something. If you want to upgrade it further to 220 (heroic denath and stone generals ilv) then you need 1800 rating which seems relatively fair.

I can agree with that. 1400 rating for an upgrade seemed dumb too. Maybe you make the 1400 upgrade based on x amount of honor or get rid of it all together.

[Alkizon]

Jester Joe
- snip -

Again, it's different, they aren't mostly "not understand" me, they just don't understand/accept the idea itself. These are completely different things.

As for complete separation, no one and nothing prevents them from leaving same base of characters, while set of gear/items and abilities for manipulation of these games will be different, different entrance and everything else. You say that people love both, but those people love both separately (it's for them that everything is being done now, but so that life doesn't seem like paradise, probably to confuse, they are mocked by some cross-activity). But point here isn't at all about desire to "give something in common", no, just in attempt to push out of comfort zone, to force to try both, regardless of what person wants "won't know until tries", but they don't give a damn about fact that those "who already know" doesn't like it = that's the idea behind their decisions. The idea itself (first quotes) isn't bad, but implementation is complete crap, and all because process of education/growth/acquaintance with game is implemented very badly (this is something about what I have already also talked a lot). In other words, they are forced to resort to violent actions post-factum, because they didn't bother themselves to make process natural at the right time (there are a lot of such places to list all of them now). Is the idea of ​​separation clear? Everyone "playing" in their own game, and someone in both, everyone is happy... except for those who liked to have common sandbox world, common plane for interaction and a full-fledged MMORPG, which is very regrettable. They didn't make choice easier (it's easier when you decide on the spot what to do, on the go, and not at its entrance), they made it easier for themselves by unifying servers, for moderation/exploitation, perhaps they may be even thought that it'll stop whining about "life is not fair, I'v (/mob/NPC) being killed , devs are @$$holes", but those who want to whine will always find a reason, nonsense to rely on this in design decisions.

Solution to factions' imbalance is what should be basis of organization of filling servers (this is the only place where automation is justified), they didn't want to make right decision on this issue even when starting Classic ones, they introduced idiotic layers and decided that it would work. They promised to "deal" with BC servers in same way. Thank you, I saw, and I realized that friends, as usual, were right, don't need such mockery on open world, won't going to play. $hit stuff no matter how they present it... but it has nothing to do with our question, to solve it in this way is like removing tonsils through the @$$. They can merge servers if needed, while base server remains as character's surname, they have done this and may be even still do this sometimes, but rarely, there is no name conflict. In short, this is a sloth's excuse. Strictly speaking, they should have carried out global restructuring of servers according to algorithm, as suggested by friends, where character's surname will be account name, global character base is outside servers and work of organizing/filling them is entrusted to automation according to certain rules... in short, this isn't quick conversation and has nothing to do with topic under discussion.

You didn’t give any reason why they don’t need to return them, you just said that you didn’t like it a lot, but that’s not a reason at all. The main censor in this matter is only one: "Did it work? Did it fulfill its functional purpose?" and it - did, but what you like - doesn't, for all its main points.

And no one, even devs themselves, will provide such statistics, also it doesn't needed. I call it the best options not based on statistics, not based on any of opinions, only by ticks in graphs of necessary system requirements. Have - good, doesn't - bad. It's simple. Why are these stupid statistics needed? Count who liked what and how? None of statistics can answer this question, since you getting only end result, but not the reason, not the answer on "why?". And by the way, indicated stats aren't useless for PvE

They weren't useless, they were at same time: players strength's grows limiter + timegate/requirements + catch-up mechanics. They limited number of "reinforcing" characteristics, created certain requirements for participation in a specific level/area of content (separator on demand and required quantity), at the same time were more (faster) accessible over time (expansion progress, due to professions and variability of already available equipment).

same as PvP stat for PvP (however, even if they were, then the very fact of assistance in separation would already be sufficient reason), each of them has its own purpose, perhaps you'll not like such appointment, but I repeat, opinions here aren't valid, only place and purpose of each system in overall design's picture is.

ps. I don't know why Wintergrasp and Tol Barad are here, given that this is legacy of more correct, more civilized era, but I was talking about what happened since WoD. Do you know its legacy? Yeah, Ashran! I haven't seen more mockery of system before advent of WM. However, unlike the latter, it didn't violate basic rules of world's design, only organization of activity.

- - - Updated - - -

Im honestly having an extremely tough time trying to translate what you are actually saying - its just word salad at this point. I would suggest having a go with FAR fewer words and just keep it simple, because myself (and others it seems) are having a very tough time understanding what you are actually trying to say.

Well, yes, I have already heard this song, the last time it turned out to be untrue, but for a change I will pretend that I will believe it now. And what is not clear to you here? What are 2 games with a common game base? Would example like "HL with CS"/"WC3 with 1st-dota" fit? I don’t want this, at all, I don’t like it, but this is one of two possible effective solutions to which they have almost come. This is not right for MMOs, but they are confident and stubborn on this road. Their entire design in specified period screamed about it.

I'll skip part with explanation of how to effectively separate servers and how to get away from problem of name coincidence, it's easy, but it doesn't matter here, it's offtopic, don't know why my opponent spoke about it

Statistics mentioned is useless, since the only thing that is important in design is understanding consistency of all systems together, current one doesn't meet requirements, previous one didn't even more, the last time when it worked within general design was MoP, that's why I called it the starting point. So, that's all.

So, what is incomprehensible here?

Requirements for such system (for full-fledged work within one integral game):
- simplicity of implementation and understanding (literality/minimum layers)
- without breaking class/talent boundaries
- sufficient variety for role-based customization
- its complete control/tuning by player = no automation/scaling
- support for full separation of game activities without setting hard boundaries in the game (this is still one game, not two, same common world, same rules), namely separation gear without violating freedom and principles of customization and progress, these are 2 different ways (can be configured by devs separately), but their essence is absolutely identical both in terms of principles and depth (if understood how one works, then also know second one, same ceiling = same degree of customization)
~ this division must support basis for controlling combat system of each specific individual activity, since mobs and players in battle have completely different tasks and capabilities, as well as difference in organization of respective encounters.

Their current solution will have violation for ~4 of these principles, their previous design did almost for all. Variant with stats violates only for ~0.5 and that is solely out of immoderation in PvE progress, which is quite easy to fix. In other words, it's not organization/principle of system itself that is to blame, but indicator of higher order, which is organization of progress and delivery of content (it wasn't consistent/good enough, however, it became much worse in comparison later).