View Poll Results: Do most Alliance and Horde players like Saurfang?

Voters
188. You may not vote on this poll
  • I'm Alliance, and I like Saurfang

    52 27.66%
  • I'm Alliance, and I don't like Saurfang

    24 12.77%
  • I'm Horde, and I like Saurfang

    49 26.06%
  • I'm Horde, and I don't like Saurfang

    45 23.94%
  • Other / Not sure / I have no real opinion on Saurfang

    18 9.57%
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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Had to look up what you meant about Lyana and Zekhan. forgot that part is dependant on your choices. You either show up with Lyana and fight Saurfang or you show up with Zekhan and fight Lyana?
    If you tell Zekhan you won't betray Sylvanas you basically head back to Orgrimmar, tell Sylvanas what is happening and the questline ends for you there, altho i don't remember what Sylvanas tells you precisely.

  2. #82
    A good character when he was barely touched.

    A pathetic character once the shitty writers got their hands on him.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    A good character when he was barely touched.

    A pathetic character once the shitty writers got their hands on him.
    Fun fact: In order for him to have been a good character, the writers would have had to "got their hands on him".

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    Fun fact: In order for him to have been a good character, the writers would have had to "got their hands on him".
    Do we really have to fact-check that a character on a videogame was in fact written into existence instead of born?

    Yes, you discovered the secret meaning behind my post: There are various degrees of quality when it comes to writers and lately Blizzard hasn't been getting the good sort.

  5. #85
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    If you tell Zekhan you won't betray Sylvanas you basically head back to Orgrimmar, tell Sylvanas what is happening and the questline ends for you there, altho i don't remember what Sylvanas tells you precisely.
    Iirc Sylvanas just pats you in the head and tells you to not undertake any further actions. Which until then, could make sense, but when she tells you to "just play along" as Thrall and Sadfang storm into the Underhold (with the aid of key Alliance figures such as Jaina, no less) well... that was the entirety of BfA in a nutshell.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Had to look up what you meant about Lyana and Zekhan. forgot that part is dependant on your choices. You either show up with Lyana and fight Saurfang or you show up with Zekhan and fight Lyana?
    If you choose the loyalist route at Zekhan, you go back to Sylvanas and tell her what you found out, and she says she has special plans for Zekhan (though we don't find out the details): this is in the For the Queen quest. If you go the rebellion route, you then join Zekhan with Saurfang in Swamp of Sorrows, and Zekhan attacks and fights Lyana alongside Saurfang and the PC. He's super excited about killing the dark rangers, even asking the PC if they saw him shocking the troops: "Ey! We did it, mon! What a battle! You see all dem sparks I be shootin'?" That quest is called A Warrior's Death, if you want to look it up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Iirc Sylvanas just pats you in the head and tells you to not undertake any further actions. Which until then, could make sense, but when she tells you to "just play along" as Thrall and Sadfang storm into the Underhold (with the aid of key Alliance figures such as Jaina, no less) well... that was the entirety of BfA in a nutshell.
    Yeah. The only way that section makes any sense is if you know Sylvanas' motivation about maximizing casualties, and she figures not ending the rebellion there will lead to greater death counts later. But given what the loyalist knows, it's really nonsensical, and it makes it clear Sylvanas doesn't value her own troops' lives (given that she's asking you to kill them to keep up an unnecessary ruse at that point).

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    If you choose the loyalist route at Zekhan, you go back to Sylvanas and tell her what you found out, and she says she has special plans for Zekhan (though we don't find out the details): this is in the For the Queen quest. If you go the rebellion route, you then join Zekhan with Saurfang in Swamp of Sorrows, and Zekhan attacks and fights Lyana alongside Saurfang and the PC. He's super excited about killing the dark rangers, even asking the PC if they saw him shocking the troops: "Ey! We did it, mon! What a battle! You see all dem sparks I be shootin'?" That quest is called A Warrior's Death, if you want to look it up.
    I wanted to say that if you go the loyalist route it was you with the rangers attacking saurfang and Zappy boi was not present. basically mirroring the events needed... you know... minus the toy reward

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Iirc Sylvanas just pats you in the head and tells you to not undertake any further actions. Which until then, could make sense, but when she tells you to "just play along" as Thrall and Sadfang storm into the Underhold (with the aid of key Alliance figures such as Jaina, no less) well... that was the entirety of BfA in a nutshell.
    Amen to that. The "Spy" or "Double Agent" plot went absolutely nowhere and was there only to appease people that either liked Sylvanas or were refusing to side with Aliance against the Horde just Nazgriming it, while giving them hope (oh the irony) that their choices are going to have a meaningful impact.

    But ultimately the most fundamental rule of storytelling is that investment is built on stakes, which are built upon consequences. Consequences got tossed out of the window, for any Horde actions, by the time Siege of Dazar'Alor rolled around. Earning Zandalari fleet? Exploded. Earning Rastakhan's favor? Dead. Getting stormthingy, in a daring heist from Boralus? Stolen back immideately. Getting Derek's corpse to be resurrected/used as leverage? Baine betrays the Horde and gives him to Jaina. Baine rightfully imprisoned for treason? Rescued right away. Azshara obliterating alliance and traitor fleets? Sylvanas has a meltdown, goes 180 on her character and runs away for some reason. Xal released from the dagger? Never mentioned again. We mess up and fail to stop N'zoth from being released? Obliterated by Kamehameha styled laser... Not even mentioning the three Aliance leader defeat copouts... aaand so forth.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I think the Kaldorei would not agree that he was "redeemed".
    Nor is he close to making amends for his mistakes.
    "Can be" != "Is"

    It showed that there is potential, nothing else.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    "Can be" != "Is"

    It showed that there is potential, nothing else.
    The same he proves the opposite.
    3 times he regretted going astray. 3 times I take it.
    We know he's not going to take it again just because he's Dead.

    He shows the Horde that she is doomed. They will never be "better" they will always be "monsters".

  11. #91
    I don't like anyone in the Horde. Except the Tauren. I got no beef with them.
    Meanwhile, back on Azeroth, the overwhelming majority of the orcs languished in internment camps. One Orc had a dream. A dream to reunite the disparate souls trapped under the lock and key of the Alliance. So he raided the internment camps, freeing those orcs that he could, and reached out to a downtrodden tribe of trolls to aid him in rebuilding a Horde where orcs could live free of the humans who defeated them so long ago. That orc's name was... Rend.

  12. #92
    Saurfang was just another alliance pawn the same way Thrall and Baine are. The less of those idiots are around the better our glorious faction is off. Can't wait for Sylvanas to kill the other alliance loving peace mongers too. Down with anyone who sells out the Horde to the alliance.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    His entire thing was being loyal to the Warchief. Then he wasn't. I felt more for Nazgrim because serving the Horde War machine relentlessly is the Orc way - he was a product of culture, a reflection of the problem. It's regrettable because Saurfang comes in representing the hope and solution, and dies for it. He shows that it isn't easy, that even the mightiest of warriors can't stand in the face of these kinds of issues. War is greater than one rebellion, this is the lesson that is taught for better or worse.
    Most of the Horde was indeed fiercely loyal to Sylvanas - Lor'themar even mentioned that he and Thalyssra could not stop the conflict even were they to attempt to do so.

    So I don't understand, if even Baine and the nature-loving tauren were loyal to the Horde until Derek Proudmoore was raised (and he was seemingly unperturbed by Teldrassil, the Blight, and the rest of Sylvanas's actions beforehand), why was Varok Saurfang, a far more "hardened" warrior and veteran who has killed far more Alliance players than most of the Horde leaders, was so deeply bothered? There were plenty of tauren who participated in Darkshore, Lordaeron and the War Campaigns, so presumably they preferred Sylvanas over Saurfang as well. If he was so popular, why was he basically the only person who refused to follow Sylvanas? Rexxar literally wanted to kill Jaina, and Lilian Voss also wanted the humans to pay for their crimes against her people. The point is - Saurfang's defiance seemed to be almost confusing and unrelatable to most of the Horde for most of the war, and even most orcs (except for a certain very obvious exception) seemed unwilling to follow him - and other than that exception, he was actually the only major orc present at the Gates of Orgrimmar.

    Then Saurfang was honored as one of their greatest heroes by 90% of the Alliance and Horde NPCs - after Sylvanas killed him in the mak'gora. Perhaps she was cheating, but Thrall did much the same to quickly kill Garrosh with his elemental attacks after he was nearly defeated...and even without her death powers, Sylvanas still would have likely won eventually.
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  14. #94
    Saurfang used to be the OG, he was the hordes silent defender. In Vanilla the Alliance feared him so much they would only ever raid Org from the side entrance so they wouldn't have to get wiped by Saurfang. It's one of the reasons I feel Blizzard moved the keep to the front so that Alliance could no longer just sneak in through the back and run right to Thrall/Garrosh.

    However then Blizzard had to put their dirty little lore ruining hands all over our silent defender and started giving him plot, which was fine...in wotlk they didn't do anything that made him look bad infact he looked more badas after wotlk. BUT then BFA came and they fucking killed our boy cause Blizzard couldn't write solid material if Tolkein himself wrote a book and told blizzard all they had to do was write the last chapter themselves, they'd still butcher it and bomb it to the ground...kind of like D&D from GOT.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    Most of the Horde was indeed fiercely loyal to Sylvanas - Lor'themar even mentioned that he and Thalyssra could not stop the conflict even were they to attempt to do so.

    So I don't understand, if even Baine and the nature-loving tauren were loyal to the Horde until Derek Proudmoore was raised (and he was seemingly unperturbed by Teldrassil, the Blight, and the rest of Sylvanas's actions beforehand), why was Varok Saurfang, a far more "hardened" warrior and veteran who has killed far more Alliance players than most of the Horde leaders, was so deeply bothered? There were plenty of tauren who participated in Darkshore, Lordaeron and the War Campaigns, so presumably they preferred Sylvanas over Saurfang as well. If he was so popular, why was he basically the only person who refused to follow Sylvanas? Rexxar literally wanted to kill Jaina, and Lilian Voss also wanted the humans to pay for their crimes against her people. The point is - Saurfang's defiance seemed to be almost confusing and unrelatable to most of the Horde for most of the war, and even most orcs (except for a certain very obvious exception) seemed unwilling to follow him - and other than that exception, he was actually the only major orc present at the Gates of Orgrimmar.

    Then Saurfang was honored as one of their greatest heroes by 90% of the Alliance and Horde NPCs - after Sylvanas killed him in the mak'gora. Perhaps she was cheating, but Thrall did much the same to quickly kill Garrosh with his elemental attacks after he was nearly defeated...and even without her death powers, Sylvanas still would have likely won eventually.
    Well, being a hardened could be taken a number of different ways, but I think in context of all he has done and what his personal motivations are, it makes more sense for him to finally snap because he has seen so much - 'enough is enough' sort of deal. But, that being said, it was maybe also selfishly a way to get the Honorable Death he so craved. Saurfang I think, was suffering from PTSD and just wanted a way out that wouldn't bring shame to himself or his legacy or his people (maybe even to a lesser extent at this point, the Warchief, however much they may differ in ideals at that point).

    Saurfang was kind of on a crusade for his own death, which is why I think he kind of sabotages himself by letting, for example, Malfurion go. I think he maybe sought out the punishment because maybe he wanted to die, because of his PTSD. Saurfang can't even eat pork now because of the killings he has experienced, and he equates the squealing as much as something that sticks with 'veterans like him the hardest'.

    I think it's because the other members are so young and full of brighter hopes and willing to turn the blind eye to the darkness, hoping for something better, just following orders, that it makes sense they would turn the responsibility to the elders, to those who had the experience and who know when the bullshit can be called and when it really isn't going to change for the better. The perspective of veterans like Saurfang is important because if a fresh leader like Baine (he's actually really old) were to intervene I think the consensus of these is that maybe they read the situation wrong and maybe make things worse - so, leaving it to those experienced seems like the safer or option. People don't want to be the first to throw their hat in the ring to these kinds of problems incase they're wrong, and it's pretty easy to see that once someone was actually fighting against the machine that results actually start showing. But, that's just a personal take and how I ended up reading it.

    Saurfang's defiance did really seem out of nowhere, but his position isn't really one that's familiar - not a lot of people can relate to his trauma. Or at the very least, his trauma and the ghosts of his past and all that seemed to pay a very back seat to everything that was going on. Saurfang got a pep talk from Zappy Boi at one point, but after that it seemed Saurfang was basically ready to die and fight for the younglings, which frankly seemed a little ton-deaf to not only his situation and giving it the attention it deserved but also it kind of romanticizes him taking the easy way out and dying despite fighting for an honorable cause. It sends a lot of mixed messages and doesn't seem to touch on what makes Saurfang so tragic, which means a lot of the emotional impact of his death is also lost.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    The same he proves the opposite.
    3 times he regretted going astray. 3 times I take it.
    We know he's not going to take it again just because he's Dead.

    He shows the Horde that she is doomed. They will never be "better" they will always be "monsters".
    That is what potential means, it can go either way.
    Don't get me wrong, personally i'd see complete extermination of at least the (green) orcs and the forsaken as entirely justified by now, but from a general perspective the potential works, and that's all that matters.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  17. #97
    Immortal FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    Varok Saurfang was one of the most popular characters of the Horde for years, and was widely regarded and respected as a war hero, especially after Wrath of the Lich King.
    He was a hero up to some time in Legion... Then he started to think too much.. Not becoming for a orc warrior.... And finally he ended up a hated traitor.
    Fact (because I say so): TBC > Cata > Legion > ShaLa > MoP > BfA > WoD = WotLK

    My pet collection --> http://www.warcraftpets.com/collection/FuxieDK/

  18. #98
    Varok Saurfang used to be a great character but only pre-BFA. They butchered his character, like many others, and tried to hide their terrible narrative decisions behind fancy cinematics and "muh honour" quotes, so much so that it became a meme. The pro-Alliance players of course loved Saurfang in BFA because they got another one-dimensional character they could sympathize with.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by s0ul View Post
    Varok Saurfang used to be a great character but only pre-BFA. They butchered his character, like many others, and tried to hide their terrible narrative decisions behind fancy cinematics and "muh honour" quotes, so much so that it became a meme. The pro-Alliance players of course loved Saurfang in BFA because they got another one-dimensional character they could sympathize with.
    You know what's funny? All you guys wanna complain about Saurfang, call him a traitor, etc. knowing full well he did the same fucking shit when Garrosh acted up. He never blindly followed a warchief to the grave like Nazgrim or others. He's literally in Siege of Orgrimmar fighting Garrosh.

  20. #100
    I like him alot LOK'TAR OGAR!

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