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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Ok, fair enough.

    Elon Musk built from scratch, using his money and engineering prowess, a space launch venture wherein the cost of launching things to space has been cut by an order of magnitude. SpaceX/Musk pioneered reusable rockets. SpaceX/Musk put the United States back into human launch capability. The list literally goes on and on.

    Musk is no saint, and I would bet money that he's actually an asshole. But his brilliance and engineering genius and organization abilities are bare for all to see. Literally no one else has done what he's done, not even NASA (although Musk used NASA's stuff to build SpaceX - I can expand on that if I'm not making sense).

    If you're actually looking for a history and list of achivements, you can look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk
    How did he build this from scratch? What is his "engineering genius"? You say no one has done what he's done but how could they? How can NASA do that when we cut their funding over and over and over and over and over to the point where we'll give more in subsidies to private companies to do space stuff, than to NASA itself.

    So far all I'm seeing is... he has a lot of money and funded things... great... we have NASA, we could have funded it but instead we fund corporations. Musk didn't pioneer reusable rockets, NASA was already trying this in the 80s. He just had money and the goal to do it and thus did it. It isn't an original idea, it's just a funded idea.

    There are tons of people smarter than Musk, with a better understanding of all of this than Musk. They just don't have the money to start random ventures that their heart desires at the drop of a hat. This is why I take specific issue with people who treat Musk like he is Jesus returned. It isn't fucking Musk, it takes thousands of smart people to do this work, thousands and thousands and years CENTURIES of ideas getting improved and yet fuck everyone else who didn't have the money to just try and do it.

    What engineering genius is bare for us all to see? If he was such an engineering genius one would think he'd stop with the magic tubes that make no sense, and I'm not seeing in the wiki his engineering genius contribution to Spacex
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  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    How did he build this from scratch? What is his "engineering genius"? You say no one has done what he's done but how could they? How can NASA do that when we cut their funding over and over and over and over and over to the point where we'll give more in subsidies to private companies to do space stuff, than to NASA itself.
    He built the company. Don't get pedantic on me - if you don't know how companies are created and built by their founders, you can source several books on the subject. I don't know why we cut funding to NASA, I'm sure they probably could have at some point down the line, the plans were theirs. But they didn't. SpaceX did. That's what happened. Given the current status of Starliner I doubt NASA would be even remotely close to self landing rockets.
    His engineering genius was helping design the actual rocket, test them, repair, etc. Elon physically worked on the design and testing during SpaceX's build up to their first launch. They were down to their last rocket, if it hadn't succeeded they would have folded.


    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    So far all I'm seeing is... he has a lot of money and funded things... great... we have NASA, we could have funded it but instead we fund corporations. Musk didn't pioneer reusable rockets, NASA was already trying this in the 80s. He just had money and the goal to do it and thus did it. It isn't an original idea, it's just a funded idea.
    Then you're not seeing the full picture. I've given you some links and tools, educate yourself. You're on record not wanting the privatization of space, so I'm not sure how much objectivity you're going to bring here nor how open you're going to be to new information. The fact that Musk/SpaceX has pioneered space ventures and literally taken us to the next level is something you might not like, but it doesn't change the facts, and you should consider that objectivity your overall evaluation of this topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    There are tons of people smarter than Musk, with a better understanding of all of this than Musk. They just don't have the money to start random ventures that their heart desires at the drop of a hat. This is why I take specific issue with people who treat Musk like he is Jesus returned. It isn't fucking Musk, it takes thousands of smart people to do this work, thousands and thousands and years CENTURIES of ideas getting improved and yet fuck everyone else who didn't have the money to just try and do it.
    It was more than just money. As soon as you realize that, we can move on with the discussion. Musk isn't "Jesus returned" - he's kind of an asshole. But he created SpaceX and gets all the credit for the enormous success they have been.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    What engineering genius is bare for us all to see? If he was such an engineering genius one would think he'd stop with the magic tubes that make no sense, and I'm not seeing in the wiki his engineering genius contribution to Spacex
    SpaceX.

  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    He built the company. Don't get pedantic on me - if you don't know how companies are created and built by their founders, you can source several books on the subject. I don't know why we cut funding to NASA, I'm sure they probably could have at some point down the line, the plans were theirs. But they didn't. SpaceX did. That's what happened. Given the current status of Starliner I doubt NASA would be even remotely close to self landing rockets.
    His engineering genius was helping design the actual rocket, test them, repair, etc. Elon physically worked on the design and testing during SpaceX's build up to their first launch. They were down to their last rocket, if it hadn't succeeded they would have folded.



    Then you're not seeing the full picture. I've given you some links and tools, educate yourself. You're on record not wanting the privatization of space, so I'm not sure how much objectivity you're going to bring here nor how open you're going to be to new information. The fact that Musk/SpaceX has pioneered space ventures and literally taken us to the next level is something you might not like, but it doesn't change the facts, and you should consider that objectivity your overall evaluation of this topic.


    It was more than just money. As soon as you realize that, we can move on with the discussion. Musk isn't "Jesus returned" - he's kind of an asshole. But he created SpaceX and gets all the credit for the enormous success they have been.


    SpaceX.
    I didn't get pedantic...honestly when you said "built it" I was hoping you didn't mean the company because that isn't something "amazing" when you have oodles of money. He created SpaceX with his riches and employed people that who could make what he wanted? I'm not impressed with that.
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  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    I didn't get pedantic...honestly when you said "built it" I was hoping you didn't mean the company because that isn't something "amazing" when you have oodles of money. He created SpaceX with his riches and employed people that who could make what he wanted? I'm not impressed with that.
    Then don't be impressed. Frankly, I don't give a shit about your opinion on this topic any more. You're clearly biased, with no ability for objectivity. Intellectually dishonest people rarely keep my interest, and since you've proven yours, we can be done with this conversation.

  5. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Then don't be impressed. Frankly, I don't give a shit about your opinion on this topic any more. You're clearly biased, with no ability for objectivity. Intellectually dishonest people rarely keep my interest, and since you've proven yours, we can be done with this conversation.
    You honestly feel like a zealot on this matter to me. You are extremely defensive and brash and you really aren't giving me much to go on to see any justification. Building a company when you have hundreds of millions and billions to do so isn't an amazing feat... when you sink your riches to make it grow to make sure it doesn't die early, it isn't an amazing feat. If anything it just highlight an integral problem with out system.

    "His engineering genius"

    "he built a company and then hired some people and pumped money and had some neat ideas that have been round for decades. Exactly what did he do that showed his engineering genius? Like can you give me a specific example?"

    "You fucking biased piece of shit Musk hater, Fuck you I don't give a fuck about your opinion."

    It's pure zealotry.
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  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    "he built a company and then hired some people and pumped money and had some neat ideas that have been round for decades. Exactly what did he do that showed his engineering genius? Like can you give me a specific example?"
    I already listed a few specific major accomplishments he did, both in the engineering field, and in the corporate arena - you asking for them now or claiming they weren't listed is gaslighting. Please refrain from that kind of behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    You honestly feel like a zealot on this matter to me. You are extremely defensive and brash and you really aren't giving me much to go on to see any justification. Building a company when you have hundreds of millions and billions to do so isn't an amazing feat... when you sink your riches to make it grow to make sure it doesn't die early, it isn't an amazing feat. If anything it just highlight an integral problem with out system.

    "His engineering genius"

    "You fucking biased piece of shit Musk hater, Fuck you I don't give a fuck about your opinion."

    It's pure zealotry.
    And this is why we don't have anything to talk about anymore. You're ridiculously biased. You made up your mind on this topic before the discussion began (see your post I linked from this thread above). You call people "zealots" who point out your innumerable mistakes and misnomers.

    The list of things you don't understand is legion. You don't understand how companies work. You don't know how they are built. You don't know what it takes to pioneer something. You were done before we began.

    What's worse - you did all of this in bad faith. You either already know what I've told you and ignored it, or refuse to acknowledge it. Or you can't be bothered to learn more about something you claim to not understand. Either way, it's the worst form of intellectual dishonesty and isn't tollerated by people in this forum.

    You go on and post more about "what did 'he' do" and "privatization has no place in space exploration" and we'll be at the adult table if you ever decide to join us. Meanwhile, enjoy your "zealotry" fallacy and pathetic baiting attempts. We'll keep laughing.
    Last edited by cubby; 2021-10-09 at 10:40 PM.

  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I already listed a few specific major accomplishments he did, both in the engineering field, and in the corporate arena - you asking for them now or claiming they weren't listed is gaslighting. Please refrain from that kind of behavior.



    And this is why we don't have anything to talk about anymore. You're ridiculously biased. You made up your mind on this topic before the discussion began (see your post I linked from this thread above). You call people "zealots" who point out your innumerable mistakes and misnomers.

    The list of things you don't understand is legion. You don't understand how companies work. You don't know how they are built. You don't know what it takes to pioneer something. You were done before we began.

    What's worse - you did all of this in bad faith. You either already know what I've told you and ignored it, or refuse to acknowledge it. Or you can't be bothered to learn more about something you claim to not understand. Either way, it's the worst form of intellectual dishonesty and isn't tollerated by people in this forum.

    You go on and post more about "what did 'he' do" and "privatization has no place in space exploration" and we'll be at the adult table if you ever decide to join us. Meanwhile, enjoy your "zealotry" fallacy and pathetic baiting attempts. We'll keep laughing.
    Rich boy from rich family builds becomes richer thanks to head start in life "omg he's so amazing" yeah no his "corporate" bs is just that bs.

    You haven't really said much... like his engineer skills you said go read wiki... I just want you to give me like a specific example that I can then go look into further. Do you not have one on the top of your head that isn't just "he had money and ideas and could afford them"
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  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    [B]I just want you to give me like a specific example that I can then go look into further.
    We gave you two, in this thread, after you asked. Musk worked on the rockets directly, both during design and launch. Just two of hundreds of things he's done in building a space venture company. I guess you'll take a break now while "you look into [that] further", eh? I pointed you towards wiki because their site has a summary of his and SpaceX's achievements, with links to follow up. Maybe that's where you can start, since you know so little.


    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Rich boy from rich family builds becomes richer thanks to head start in life "omg he's so amazing" yeah no his "corporate" bs is just that bs.

    You haven't really said much... like his engineer skills you said go read wiki... Do you not have one on the top of your head that isn't just "he had money and ideas and could afford them"
    You realize these posts of yours are just proving my point. Your ridiculous bias and now gaslighting are beyond juvenile. You somehow think building a company is just throwing money at something. Innovating space launch abilities is just lucky according to you, eh?

    We've told you what he's done. If you don't care to acknowledge it, that's your "zealotry", not ours. I've also pointed out numerous times where Musk is a terrible person, and you ignore those as well. The only person who needs to evaluate their behavior is you.

    I guess the question you should ask yourself is why are you so intellectually dishonest?

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    We gave you two, in this thread, after you asked. Musk worked on the rockets directly, both during design and launch. Just two of hundreds of things he's done in building a space venture company. I guess you'll take a break now while "you look into [that] further", eh? I pointed you towards wiki because their site has a summary of his and SpaceX's achievements, with links to follow up. Maybe that's where you can start, since you know so little.




    You realize these posts of yours are just proving my point. Your ridiculous bias and now gaslighting are beyond juvenile. You somehow think building a company is just throwing money at something. Innovating space launch abilities is just lucky according to you, eh?

    We've told you what he's done. If you don't care to acknowledge it, that's your "zealotry", not ours. I've also pointed out numerous times where Musk is a terrible person, and you ignore those as well. The only person who needs to evaluate their behavior is you.

    I guess the question you should ask yourself is why are you so intellectually dishonest?
    Okay um that's not anything specific.

    the guy who owns the rocket company worked directly with the rockets during design and launch. Okay? That's not impressive unless I know specifically what he was doing. If I have an idea for a sword design and someone makes it... I'm not the amazing blacksmith. Like ceos working directly on flagship shit is normal... not special for Elon...

    Building a company often is just throwing money at it... innovating space with government funded research and decades tests is what has allowed Elon this chance you are aware right?

    You've still not said much... You're the one being dishonest. You come at me with fucking "he helped design and work on the launch" doing what?? That's like typically CEO behaviour which includes CEOs who aren't part of the industry.

    That's not fucking specific. At this point what you're telling mess that Elon Musk is a process manager. He is involved with design okay... and people who have worked there say that they come up with a lot of designs which they bring to musk and he goes through them. Alright but what is he doing... specifically that is genius levels engineering here? This is the part I am missing, where is he applying this engineering?
    Last edited by Themius; 2021-10-09 at 11:41 PM.
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  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    What did "he" do?
    He went and threw money at commercial space travel until it became financially viable. That could have taken decades at the usual pace of government and institutional investors.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    He went and threw money at commercial space travel until it became financially viable. That could have taken decades at the usual pace of government and institutional investors.
    Did he, though? He may have helped revive some popular interest in the idea, but are we any closer to "commercial space travel" than we have been for the past few decades that we've been sending shit into space for various commercial reasons?

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Did he, though? He may have helped revive some popular interest in the idea, but are we any closer to "commercial space travel" than we have been for the past few decades that we've been sending shit into space for various commercial reasons?
    Well, we are certainly still far from casual space travel, but the cost of sending stuff into space as expressed in $/kg has gone down. Faster than it had been going down before he jumped in. That could be correlation, that could be simply hype, but I think he had some part in it. His contribution is hard to quantify, obviously.

  13. #293
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    He went and threw money at commercial space travel until it became financially viable. That could have taken decades at the usual pace of government and institutional investors.
    He filled a bubble because the US funds space was broke. Instead of actually fixing the problem, they placed a bandaid on it. He hasn't done anything NASA hasn't done or proposed, NASA wasn't allowed to do it

    NASA duped Congress into giving them money for projects under the guise of the commercial system -part of the reason many scientists and the international community loathe the state of US spaceflight. Musk was there to catch the success. Does NASA know Musk is getting over? Yes. Do they care? No because the system is busted. NASA used SpaceX as its puppet agency despite of anything Musk was doing. Hell, Musk is often contracted by his actual engineers and directors when people start being realistic. Starship is their first real independent venture. Its awesome, but if Musk keeps overselling it it will lose contracts when it doesn't meet his extravagant expectations.

    We paid Russia about $80-90 million to send people up.
    We pay SpaceX $55-60 million. And then we turn around and give SpaceX more money. Its not like SpaceX is really saving us money if thats ones argument for celebrating them. I personally don't care about pushing numbers when it comes to spaceflight, just efficent results.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Did he, though? He may have helped revive some popular interest in the idea, but are we any closer to "commercial space travel" than we have been for the past few decades that we've been sending shit into space for various commercial reasons?
    We're in a place where research labs are using the commercial space agencies to put up small sats and science experiments. You don't hear much about them though because SpaceX dominates the press's attention.
    Last edited by PACOX; 2021-10-10 at 06:29 AM.

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  14. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    He filled a bubble because the US funds space was broke. Instead of actually fixing the problem, they placed a bandaid on it. He hasn't done anything NASA hasn't done or proposed, NASA wasn't allowed to do it
    I would say this is a solid summary of Musk/SpaceX's achievements. I crossed out one part of your second sentence only for clarity on my position, not yours.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Well, we are certainly still far from casual space travel, but the cost of sending stuff into space as expressed in $/kg has gone down. Faster than it had been going down before he jumped in. That could be correlation, that could be simply hype, but I think he had some part in it. His contribution is hard to quantify, obviously.
    SpaceX dropped the cost of $/kg by an order of magnitude. I would say that is both significant and very easy to quantify. Plus, reusable rockets - that I would also classify as significant and quantifiable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    He went and threw money at commercial space travel until it became financially viable. That could have taken decades at the usual pace of government and institutional investors.
    NASA was stuck and not moving forward. Their only viable rocket still hasn't launched, is 6+ years behind, and the guy who said it should be scrapped if the SLS doesn't make it's schedule is now in charge of it. NASA has some serious institutional problems, some of which are based on funding, but a lot of which are based on out dated perspectives.

    SpaceX came along at the right time to both innovate an industry and spur others along.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Boeing's next Starliner test flight moves to first half of 2022.
    Engineers have narrowed down the likely causes of the oxidizer isolation valve problem that forced the team to scrap the August 2021 launch, but it remains a "complex issue" that requires a "methodical approach" to solve, according to Commercial Crew Program manager Steve Stich.

    Boeing has several possible solutions in the works, ranging from small tweaks to the existing crew capsule through to modifying a capsule still in production. The exact launch timing hinges on both the readiness of the hardware itself as well as the rocket manifest and access to the International Space Station.
    Boeing still doesn't know the exact cause of the problem yet, pushing the still first launch to sometime in 2022. The over/under on this thing ever carrying people anywhere is slowly climbing.

    This is why privatization of space commercialization and innovation is really the only practical solution, at least for the U.S. If NASA were still trying to do things, well, we'd still be begging the Soviets Russians for lifts to our station.
    Last edited by cubby; 2021-10-11 at 02:56 AM.

  15. #295
    I could also add that Tesla has certainly been one of the biggest forces for pushing electric cars to market, so maybe, just maybe, Musk is a bit more than one tricky pony who got lucky once.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
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  16. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    I could also add that Tesla has certainly been one of the biggest forces for pushing electric cars to market, so maybe, just maybe, Musk is a bit more than one tricky pony who got lucky once.
    Paypal did pretty well, too.

    Musk is a certified genius and an unqualified success, in multiple genres, over multiple decades. Just as a side note, he was also admitted to Stanford's PhD material's science program as well, something he left to pursue money and success. He's also an asshole with some very questionable social issues.

  17. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Then don't be impressed. Frankly, I don't give a shit about your opinion on this topic any more. You're clearly biased, with no ability for objectivity. Intellectually dishonest people rarely keep my interest, and since you've proven yours, we can be done with this conversation.
    Ranting about other people's biases when you think Musk is actually an engineering genius(the engineers he hires do all the work) and are probably the biggest fanboy on forum by a mile.

    Building a company is easy if you're born rich thanks to your parents profiting of apartheid-era South Africa policies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    Ranting about other people's biases when you think Musk is actually an engineering genius(the engineers he hires do all the work) and are probably the biggest fanboy on forum by a mile.

    Building a company is easy if you're born rich thanks to your parents profiting of apartheid-era South Africa policies.
    He is an engineering genius. People like you and others who can't evaluate things objectively just brush aside his ridiculous list of achievements as if anyone with money could have done them.

    If you ever bothered to really look at your posts you'd realize how zealot-ish you Musk baggers are (not Haters, just to be clear). Any objective evaluation of Musk's achievements would conclude his scientific and organizational brilliance. He certainly has a laundry list of issues, both personally and professionally, he's done and said, but you and your ilk can't separate hating the man personally with recognizing his achievements - him being an asshole and also brilliant aren't mutually exclusive. You and people like Themius are emotionally tied to hating him personally, and that makes all your evaluations and comments forever biased, and therefore tainted. The irony is both deep and rich.

    I'm consistently on record objectively (for the most part) pointing out Musk's goods and bads; you people just shit on him, then call me biased. It's hysterical, and the rest of enjoy a good laugh every time you post your bullshit.

  19. #299
    First solid indications of a Starship launch date say March 2022: https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/...13057161736193

  20. #300
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    First solid indications of a Starship launch date say March 2022: https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/...13057161736193
    Kind of want to gloat.

    Its the perception of SpaceX that gets annoying, not necessarily SpaceX itself. According to Musk a reentry test should have already happened. His grandstanding brought the wrong criticism towards SLS when it got pushed back to a window it was already expected to get pushed back to. Musk was putting on a show while his managers were like, "nah, none of what you're saying is actually realistic". Just goes to show Musk blows a lot of hot air and SpaceX gets their projects pushed back just like any other company. Especially when we're dealing with a rather sophisticated craft. The only thing that comes to what Starship is hoping to be is the shuttle - many tried to make one but only NASA was able to pull it off (not perfect to a decent degree of success).

    Would like to add, the reentry test is not required for the lunar mission. You don't need a heat shield to land on the moon and they've successully landed one Starship protype already. They could just perfect that and be done if they really wanted. The reentry test is for future plans to launch and returns humans on Earth with Starship.

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