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  1. #301
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Kind of want to gloat.

    Its the perception of SpaceX that gets annoying, not necessarily SpaceX itself. According to Musk a reentry test should have already happened. His grandstanding brought the wrong criticism towards SLS when it got pushed back to a window it was already expected to get pushed back to. Musk was putting on a show while his managers were like, "nah, none of what you're saying is actually realistic". Just goes to show Musk blows a lot of hot air and SpaceX gets their projects pushed back just like any other company. Especially when we're dealing with a rather sophisticated craft. The only thing that comes to what Starship is hoping to be is the shuttle - many tried to make one but only NASA was able to pull it off (not perfect to a decent degree of success).

    Would like to add, the reentry test is not required for the lunar mission. You don't need a heat shield to land on the moon and they've successully landed one Starship protype already. They could just perfect that and be done if they really wanted. The reentry test is for future plans to launch and returns humans on Earth with Starship.
    Delays are par for the course when it comes to rocket engineering, especially new designs. There's a reason why some companies/agencies still use tried and true spacecraft models designed decades ago.

    Having said that, SLS is so delayed and riddled with issues it deserves its ridicule. Starship hoppers began testing like, what, two years ago? If they have a functioning 1.0 model next year that's a very fast pace for that they're aiming for. I don't know how heavily NASA engineering factors into SpaceX's success, but the company itself has to be doing something exceptionally well when they're this fast compared to SLS and commercial competitors like Blue Origin.

    I do expect Starship to blow up a few times before they nail a steady success rate. It was like that for payload-ready Falcon 9.
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  2. #302
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    Delays are par for the course when it comes to rocket engineering, especially new designs. There's a reason why some companies/agencies still use tried and true spacecraft models designed decades ago.

    Having said that, SLS is so delayed and riddled with issues it deserves its ridicule. Starship hoppers began testing like, what, two years ago? If they have a functioning 1.0 model next year that's a very fast pace for that they're aiming for. I don't know how heavily NASA engineering factors into SpaceX's success, but the company itself has to be doing something exceptionally well when they're this fast compared to SLS and commercial competitors like Blue Origin.

    I do expect Starship to blow up a few times before they nail a steady success rate. It was like that for payload-ready Falcon 9.
    We looked up earlier in the thread. Starship is just about as old as SLS if you trace both to their initial planning phases (Starship had a different name). SLS has less of an excuse since SLS is shuttle derived in its propulsion, so 90% of the craft. SpaceX basically finished an entire rocket family to get to where it's at with Starship while NASA spent its time in logistics hell. Actually testing of SLS has been smooth, I'll give them that. I believe its maidan flight is stacked with some odds and ends missing.

    Last I really looked into Blue Origin they were doing well enough until they got hit with the same problems all rocket companies were hit. New Shepard is actually good for what they designed it to do. Bezos is full of crap if he thinks New Shepard means NASA should wait for him to build a lunar lander. Blue Origin's main issue is that finishing their engines is an uphill battle right now.

    Boeing is playing both sides of the fence. They are also waiting for Blue Origin engines (as part of ULA for their Vulcan rocket).

    I feel like SpaceX has been wasting time by not doing Starship landing tests while waiting to get a prototype ready for a reentry test but confidence in a lunar landing version of Starship ready by the an SLS is ready to get to the Moon. They have nothing but time but the real holdup is still isn't even the rockets...
    Its the spacesuits.

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  3. #303
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post

    I'm consistently on record objectively (for the most part) pointing out Musk's goods and bads; you people just shit on him, then call me biased. It's hysterical, and the rest of enjoy a good laugh every time you post your bullshit.
    Most people here are not musk fanboys, kiddo.


    You just blindly believe whatever you tells you, like Trump fanboys do with Trump. He has funded a lot, he has however not invented shit. All his 'ideas' where already common ideas when he was still shitting his diapers while enjoying the privileges of South-African apartheid.


    But that you can't even see your own bias is beyond hilarity. If he is a genius at anything, its marketing.




    Did you also go this far in defending him when he called a rescue diver a pedophile for not agreeing to one of his stupid ideas?
    Last edited by JohnBrown1917; 2021-10-12 at 12:16 PM.
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  4. #304
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    We looked up earlier in the thread. Starship is just about as old as SLS if you trace both to their initial planning phases (Starship had a different name). SLS has less of an excuse since SLS is shuttle derived in its propulsion, so 90% of the craft. SpaceX basically finished an entire rocket family to get to where it's at with Starship while NASA spent its time in logistics hell. Actually testing of SLS has been smooth, I'll give them that. I believe its maidan flight is stacked with some odds and ends missing.

    Last I really looked into Blue Origin they were doing well enough until they got hit with the same problems all rocket companies were hit. New Shepard is actually good for what they designed it to do. Bezos is full of crap if he thinks New Shepard means NASA should wait for him to build a lunar lander. Blue Origin's main issue is that finishing their engines is an uphill battle right now.

    Boeing is playing both sides of the fence. They are also waiting for Blue Origin engines (as part of ULA for their Vulcan rocket).

    I feel like SpaceX has been wasting time by not doing Starship landing tests while waiting to get a prototype ready for a reentry test but confidence in a lunar landing version of Starship ready by the an SLS is ready to get to the Moon. They have nothing but time but the real holdup is still isn't even the rockets...
    Its the spacesuits.
    Isn't their lunar development currently sitting because of Bezos's lawsuit?

    But yes, the spacesuits. It's unfortunate they'll be likely delaying Artemis as a whole, but I'm still glad next generation suits are on the development que. Do you know if they're part of the commercial program, or will NASA develop them inhouse only? I liked how Musk insisted on aesthetics being a core consideration in SpaceX's pressure suit, which led to it turning up pretty cool-looking. I'd love to see their take on actual spacesuits. Tbh I'd want to see whole bunch of takes on spacesuits.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  5. #305
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    Bezos and Blue Origin are way, way, behind SpaceX in development. They aren't comparable at all right now. Musk was harsh in saying it, but it's true that Blue Origin is more like an (expensive) backyard hobby rocket compared to SpaceX. If you haven't followed them too closely you might think they are at about the same level, but they aren't remotely close if you look into what they've both accomplished and where they are at as far as company size, successful launches, technical accomplishments, etc. Musk is odd, he has some strange ideas, but when it comes to space he's been the Thomas Edison of our time.

    They also aren't even close in objectives. SpaceX has a stated mission purpose of making humans a multiplanetary species to continue our survival, and things like reusable rockets that are evolutionary that they developed have taken a huge step towards that goal. So is SLS, planning trips to Mars, etc. In fact Musk has said all his other projects like Tesla and Starlink are really to fund that important higher objective.

    Blue Origin's goal on the other hand is taking wealthy people up in a rocket just high enough to qualify as being "in space", purely for entertainment (and IG pictures) without any higher purpose or scientific goal whatsoever. In fact, these Blue Origin space tourism launches just hasten the need a bit to be multiplanetary with the emissions from each launch. Another Blue Origins launch with space tourists is scheduled for next week. Bezos admitted in an interview he did Blue Origin because he didn't know what else to do with his large amount of money and thought it would be fun. So Blue Origin and SpaceX are roughly in the same industry, but could not be more different companies. So of course Blue Origins was not considered for very long for the lunar lander, and it's kind of crazy that they thought they should be in the conversation when they are no where near SpaceX yet.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    I could also add that Tesla has certainly been one of the biggest forces for pushing electric cars to market, so maybe, just maybe, Musk is a bit more than one tricky pony who got lucky once.
    Tesla was already in existence... he came in and pumped money in, and frankly his company is rather shit when you look at how they're making money which is mostly by selling carbon credits... which does fuck all for the environment. We had electric cars before quite popular ones that were then killed off because of car lobbies..
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  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    Delays are par for the course when it comes to rocket engineering, especially new designs. There's a reason why some companies/agencies still use tried and true spacecraft models designed decades ago.

    Having said that, SLS is so delayed and riddled with issues it deserves its ridicule. Starship hoppers began testing like, what, two years ago? If they have a functioning 1.0 model next year that's a very fast pace for that they're aiming for. I don't know how heavily NASA engineering factors into SpaceX's success, but the company itself has to be doing something exceptionally well when they're this fast compared to SLS and commercial competitors like Blue Origin.

    I do expect Starship to blow up a few times before they nail a steady success rate. It was like that for payload-ready Falcon 9.
    It seems like SLS keeps taking one step forward and two back, even after relying on so much borrow launch tech from the shuttle era (which is smart, I'm not criticizing that). It's just one delay after another, and they passed their 10+ year mark without a single viable launch. I'm actually a big fan of having more than one solution to both returning the U.S. to human launch capability and getting back to the moon (thank you China), so I hope the SLS figures out their shit and gets it up there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    We looked up earlier in the thread. Starship is just about as old as SLS if you trace both to their initial planning phases (Starship had a different name). SLS has less of an excuse since SLS is shuttle derived in its propulsion, so 90% of the craft. SpaceX basically finished an entire rocket family to get to where it's at with Starship while NASA spent its time in logistics hell. Actually testing of SLS has been smooth, I'll give them that. I believe its maidan flight is stacked with some odds and ends missing.

    Last I really looked into Blue Origin they were doing well enough until they got hit with the same problems all rocket companies were hit. New Shepard is actually good for what they designed it to do. Bezos is full of crap if he thinks New Shepard means NASA should wait for him to build a lunar lander. Blue Origin's main issue is that finishing their engines is an uphill battle right now.

    Boeing is playing both sides of the fence. They are also waiting for Blue Origin engines (as part of ULA for their Vulcan rocket).

    I feel like SpaceX has been wasting time by not doing Starship landing tests while waiting to get a prototype ready for a reentry test but confidence in a lunar landing version of Starship ready by the an SLS is ready to get to the Moon. They have nothing but time but the real holdup is still isn't even the rockets...
    Its the spacesuits.
    I thought Starship didn't even get going on the drawing board until around 2016 whereas SLS started in drafts around 2011...I could be wrong on that timeline though. I find it unsurprising that NASA continues to wallow in logistics (and imo administrative) hell. It's a criticism but not a harsh one, given what they've accomplished over the past 70 years. I do hope SLS works out - multiple launch platforms to the moon help everyone (I know I oversimplified that, lol, don't beat me up too badly).

    I'm with @Biglog regarding Blue Origin and Virgin - backyard hobbyists that will make some coin in tourism and peeter out when it comes to actual astronaut launches/development. To me they are the two silly billionaires racing each other to ridiculous space milestones, while SpaceX is doing NASA-quality work.

    It is interesting SpaceX isn't doing more landing tests - they have that one success but I would think a few more after multiple explosions would be prudent.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Tesla was already in existence... he came in and pumped money in, and frankly his company is rather shit when you look at how they're making money which is mostly by selling carbon credits... which does fuck all for the environment. We had electric cars before quite popular ones that were then killed off because of car lobbies..
    Yeah and he has been in Tesla for how long? That's right, since before their first car ever left the production line. Guess what - pumping money in something still requires some brains and business sense.
    And then you end it with some rant about "lobbies". Which, exactly, popular electric cars before Tesla are you talking about?
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  9. #309
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Yeah and he has been in Tesla for how long? That's right, since before their first car ever left the production line. Guess what - pumping money in something still requires some brains and business sense.
    And then you end it with some rant about "lobbies". Which, exactly, popular electric cars before Tesla are you talking about?
    I don't have a source on hand, but I recall reading about a very good electric car model in the 90's that was completely (and aggressively; I think there were lawsuit threats for refusals) recalled. Since the cars apparently worked fine it's prudent to presume this major recall was due to lobbying from traditional car makers.

    I also read about a state decree (California, I think?) that traditional car makers had to produce an electric model to the market, so they did, but they were usually deliberately poor quality to discourage consumer interest. There's more money in ICE cars: besides the initial sale they make a killing in maintenance services, which electric cars don't require that much, then there's the whole gasoline market.

    We wouldn't have gotten out of that slump without a superstar electric brand like Tesla disrupting consumer interest enough to force a movement. Now traditional car makers can't put the genie back in the bottle anymore.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  10. #310
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Yeah and he has been in Tesla for how long? That's right, since before their first car ever left the production line. Guess what - pumping money in something still requires some brains and business sense.
    And then you end it with some rant about "lobbies". Which, exactly, popular electric cars before Tesla are you talking about?
    He and JohnB are just stuck in the bagging on Musk despite objective achievements. At some point you have to let the guys under the bridge just go. I'm sure I won't be able to do that in the near future, but for now I'm holding it at bay.

    I mean, they are seriously saying that to create and build a company all you have to do is "throw money at it". LOLs.

  11. #311
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    Isn't their lunar development currently sitting because of Bezos's lawsuit?

    But yes, the spacesuits. It's unfortunate they'll be likely delaying Artemis as a whole, but I'm still glad next generation suits are on the development que. Do you know if they're part of the commercial program, or will NASA develop them inhouse only? I liked how Musk insisted on aesthetics being a core consideration in SpaceX's pressure suit, which led to it turning up pretty cool-looking. I'd love to see their take on actual spacesuits. Tbh I'd want to see whole bunch of takes on spacesuits.
    I dont think they consider the suits 'proven technology' so making them in-house (they contract use contractors by the development process is more closely controlled).
    The hitch is that they're going for a suit designed for multiple purposes, not just a lunar landing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post



    I thought Starship didn't even get going on the drawing board until around 2016 whereas SLS started in drafts around 2011...I could be wrong on that timeline though. I find it unsurprising that NASA continues to wallow in logistics (and imo administrative) hell. It's a criticism but not a harsh one, given what they've accomplished over the past 70 years. I do hope SLS works out - multiple launch platforms to the moon help everyone (I know I oversimplified that, lol, don't beat me up too badly).

    I'm with @Biglog regarding Blue Origin and Virgin - backyard hobbyists that will make some coin in tourism and peeter out when it comes to actual astronaut launches/development. To me they are the two silly billionaires racing each other to ridiculous space milestones, while SpaceX is doing NASA-quality work.

    It is interesting SpaceX isn't doing more landing tests - they have that one success but I would think a few more after multiple explosions would be prudent.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spac...opment_history

    At one point in time you could have said Blue Origin built respectable engines but 2020 happened and development stalled. Promising praise means nothing if they can't get back on track. Which is better because the US is going to need a new rocket soon, which waiting on a Blue Origin engine (for non-human heavy payloads). Maybe the US ends up buying some Falcon Heavy's instead.

    I don't think lumping Blue Origin with Virgin (there's a joke in there) is fair. Virgin is purely for tourism, Blue Origin is a more serious (attempting) company that saw an opportunity to make money off rocket tourism (Shatnet is going up to tomorrow, don't know if it got delayed again as of this post).
    Last edited by PACOX; 2021-10-12 at 08:01 PM.

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  12. #312
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    I dont think they consider the suits 'proven technology' so making them in-house (they contract use contractors by the development process is more closely controlled).
    The hitch is that they're going for a suit designed for multiple purposes, not just a lunar landing.
    They are going for the whole enchilada, IIRC. EVA/Moon/Mars and possibly asteroid landings. They want the suit for the next 100 years.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Ok, so really just about as long as the SLS. Musk was saying "incoming announcement" in 2013, but said it prior to then. And the funding act for the SLS was in 2010. So just about the same timeline.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Which, exactly, popular electric cars before Tesla are you talking about?
    Milk floats!
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  14. #314
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    He and JohnB are just stuck in the bagging on Musk despite objective achievements. At some point you have to let the guys under the bridge just go. I'm sure I won't be able to do that in the near future, but for now I'm holding it at bay.

    I mean, they are seriously saying that to create and build a company all you have to do is "throw money at it". LOLs.
    Eh... yes, money is the most important part of getting a company to grow, that and marketing. Neither of which are related to him being a engineering you keep claiming without anything to back it up. Meanwhile you just flat out deny whatever shitty things he does, his union busting, trying to ruin the reputation of a rescue diver because he had his feefees hurt, ignoring the California corona rules for his factories etc. But hey, I suppose the last one is only bad if somebody who you dislike ignores those rules, right? Musk fanboys are really no different than Trump fanboys.


    All his so called objective achievements belong to the engineers who did the actual work.
    Last edited by JohnBrown1917; 2021-10-12 at 09:38 PM.
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  15. #315
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    Eh... yes, money is the most important part of getting a company to grow, that and marketing. Neither of which are related to him being a engineering you keep claiming without anything to back it up. Meanwhile you just flat out deny whatever shitty things he does, his union busting, trying to ruin the reputation of a rescue diver because he had his feefees hurt, ignoring the California corona rules for his factories etc. But hey, I suppose the last one is only bad if somebody who you dislike ignores those rules, right? Musk fanboys are really no different than Trump fanboys.


    All his so called objective achievements belong to the engineers who did the actual work.
    The best part of the above is that he doesn't even see his own contradiction re Musk and company development. But that's what you get from biased people who can't evaluate objective achievements.

    Did I deny his shitty things? Aren't I on record, in this very thread, pointing out the bad things he does? Isn't it amazing how "you zealots" can't keep the biased out of even your most basic statements?
    Last edited by cubby; 2021-10-12 at 10:27 PM.

  16. #316
    If Jeff Bezos kills James T. Kirk, I'm gonna riot.

  17. #317
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollycakes View Post
    If Jeff Bezos kills James T. Kirk, I'm gonna riot.
    Ok, right? Fucking 90 years old. Six G forces on the parachute landing alone. Plus whatever there is on launch, which I would assume is more than 1. I know they did their health "work up" on him - at least they showed it - but I'm deeply curious how many health waivers he had to sign. I bet there is an ironclad indemnity clause, over and above what the other astronauts tourist have to sign.

    Rofl at 10 minutes in "space".

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    I don't think lumping Blue Origin with Virgin (there's a joke in there) is fair. Virgin is purely for tourism, Blue Origin is a more serious (attempting) company that saw an opportunity to make money off rocket tourism (Shatnet is going up to tomorrow, don't know if it got delayed again as of this post).
    On Branson endeavors, while the space tourism does take the limelight, it is often forgotten that he has many ventures. In a sense he is currently ahead of Bezos as his LauncherOne rocket, launched from his Cosmic Girl modified 747, successfully reached orbit.

    It was first a comparatively low profile Virgin Galactic project, but now has been spun out as the separate Virgin Orbit entity.

    While it competes in the separate smallsat segment, it does have the merit of existing and already having a list of customers.


    On Bezos, I sincerely hope he manages to seriously restarts their non-tourism projects using his teams of engineers and not lawyers...

    I do see great potential for their choice of Hydrolox in the long run, given the prospective ban of hydrocarbon fuels and shift to a hydrogen economy.
    Last edited by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang; 2021-10-13 at 06:51 AM.
    "Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outwards, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang on Essays on Mind and Matter

  19. #319
    I guess we can congratulate Shatner with the 100km jump. I would not mind doing it at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Afrospinach View Post
    Milk floats!
    Yeah, basically the only thing I can find. We fricking still don't have good battery technology, there simply could not have been good eletric cars, lobby or not, say 30 years ago.
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  20. #320
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    On Branson endeavors, while the space tourism does take the limelight, it is often forgotten that he has many ventures. In a sense he is currently ahead of Bezos as his LauncherOne rocket, launched from his Cosmic Girl modified 747, successfully reached orbit.

    It was first a comparatively low profile Virgin Galactic project, but now has been spun out as the separate Virgin Orbit entity.

    While it competes in the separate smallsat segment, it does have the merit of existing and already having a list of customers.


    On Bezos, I sincerely hope he manages to seriously restarts their non-tourism projects using his teams of engineers and not lawyers...

    I do see great potential for their choice of Hydrolox in the long run, given the prospective ban of hydrocarbon fuels and shift to a hydrogen economy.
    Missed Virgin successfully launching their rocket. Thanks for the info.

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