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  1. #61
    Because shadow magic is only intended for some classes due to the fact that there are buffs that strengthen shadow magic, such as on shadow priest or warlock.

  2. #62
    These type of questions.. no offence are pointless.

    It fits, sounds cool and people will be familiar with it.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrannicalPuppy View Post
    That’s actually far more cohesive in it’s simplicity, though. Nature magic is whatever powers can be drawn directly from the Great Dark Beyond (the elements and everything druids can do), while the Arcane is the power that seeps in from the Twisting Nether. The Light and Void (the source of Shadow) are the fundamental forces of creation, and where priests either lean into one side or the other, or seek to find a balance between the two, warlocks draw upon the inherently destructive / entropic forces of both the Shadow and the Arcane (AKA Fel)
    Shouldn't fire and frost be included under "nature" then, and the nature spells of druids come from the Emerald Dream and not the great dark beyond. Also back in Vanilla the Warlock's shadow spells were supposed to be fel, not drawn from the void the same way as Shadow Priests.

    Also back in the day there was arguments about the validity of Druids using arcane spells when the Night Elves famously hated arcane magic, though personally I thought it made sense with their spells having parallels to mage abilities (shapeshift = self-polymorph and teleport to Moonglade the same as Mage teleport spells) and the Night Elves having a connection to the Well of Eternity.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Also back in the day there was arguments about the validity of Druids using arcane spells when the Night Elves famously hated arcane magic, though personally I thought it made sense with their spells having parallels to mage abilities (shapeshift = self-polymorph and teleport to Moonglade the same as Mage teleport spells) and the Night Elves having a connection to the Well of Eternity.
    Thing is, the powers of Elune/the moon has always been associated with Arcane (looking at Priestess of the Moon: Star Fall in WC3) or at least something that is similar enough that arcane seemed to be a more fitting element than holy. (aka the looks of the spells and the color.) Heck, in classic, NE priests had a quest which granted them a spell which was presented as a gift/blessing from Elune. It was arcane damage.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Shouldn't fire and frost be included under "nature" then
    They are. That's why shaman can use them. Mages manipulate the Arcane in order to replicate Flame and Frost, but Shaman wield the actual elemental Flame and Frost.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Also back in the day there was arguments about the validity of Druids using arcane spells when the Night Elves famously hated arcane magic
    This is the one thing from the new lore that can actually rather simply fill that hole. "Astral" magic falls under the category of "Nature", but for gameplay purposes it's listed as Arcane.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Also back in Vanilla the Warlock's shadow spells were supposed to be fel, not drawn from the void the same way as Shadow Priests.
    I feel like these would still end up being one in the same. It can be argued that the Twisting Nether and the Great Dark Beyond/Shadowlands were intended to be the planes of existence in which the Void and the Light had the most influence, respectively. The Void's influence on the Twisting Nether birthed the Arcane, the Fel, and the Shadow, while the Light's influence on the Great Dark Beyond gave us Life, Nature, and of course, Light. The Twisting Nether bleeding through to the Great Dark beyond gave us Magic, while the Great Dark bleeding through the Twisting Nether gave life to proto-demons. I include the Shadowlands with the Great Dark because, unlike the Twisting Nether, it is also the plane in which the cycle of life and death was born.
    Last edited by TyrannicalPuppy; 2021-04-23 at 09:41 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Because all the lore post-Cataclysm is pulled out of a hat in a boardroom meeting of directors a couple of months before the content goes live.
    All lore is pulled out of a hat in a boardroom.
    Hi

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I mean, that's pretty much how the entire process works, just that the board is one of lore devs, and it happens regularly. Not sure what people are expecting here.

    It's a fictional universe. All of those are made up by somebody.
    It's simply a matter of anti-current Blizzard bias. Old Blizzard making up random shit that went into WC1-3 thru early WoW, great perfect gameplay. New Blizzard making up random shit and trying to make it gel with the older shit without jarring badly, terrible crap just thrown together old game was much better. /s
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrannicalPuppy View Post
    They are. That's why shaman can use them. Mages manipulate the Arcane in order to replicate Flame and Frost, but Shaman wield the actual elemental Flame and Frost.
    Yes, they use Elemental Fire and Water/Frost. Not Nature magic, that's Druids.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Yes, they use Elemental Fire and Water/Frost. Not Nature magic, that's Druids.
    You're missing the point. I'm using "Nature" as an umbrella for all powers that are drawn from the Great Dark Beyond, based on the much simpler classifications of Classic. The elements are a key part of nature, even in modern lore. Druids draw on the Nature of Life, Shaman draw on the Nature of the Elements. Even Nature as you're defining it is the result of the element of Spirit.
    Last edited by TyrannicalPuppy; 2021-04-24 at 12:08 AM.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrannicalPuppy View Post
    You're missing the point. I'm using "Nature" as an umbrella for all powers that are drawn from the Great Dark Beyond, based on the much simpler classifications of Classic. The elements are a key part of nature, even in modern lore. Druids draw on the Nature of Life, Shaman draw on the Nature of the Elements. Even Nature as you're defining it is the result of the element of Spirit.
    Even back then, those weren't really the same thing. Malfurion didn't call on the same power as a Shaman when he created his storms.

    Shamans have always gained their power through dealing with sapient manifestations of the four classical elements, not Nature. It technically isn't even their own power they're using, but boons granted to them by the elements.

    Nature as i am defining is is specificially not a result of Spirit, but specificially of Life, which is a cosmic force, not directly part of the Great Dark.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Even back then, those weren't really the same thing. Malfurion didn't call on the same power as a Shaman when he created his storms.

    Shamans have always gained their power through dealing with sapient manifestations of the four classical elements, not Nature. It technically isn't even their own power they're using, but boons granted to them by the elements.
    You're still missing my point. I repeat: I am using the word "Nature" as an umbrella term for all powers drawn from the Great Dark Beyond. Druids call upon Nature as we define it today: Life itself. The elements are inherently a part of the nature of the cosmos, so even though the power that they draw isn't "Nature" as you're defining it, it's still a natural power. This is all extrapolation of where the original lore was leaning, not being drawn directly from the lore. "Arcane" wasn't a power of "Order", it was an unnatural power drawn from the Twisting Nether. Life and Elemental magicks are natural powers.


    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Nature as i am defining is is specificially not a result of Spirit, but specificially of Life, which is a cosmic force, not directly part of the Great Dark.
    Honestly, this is why I seriously dislike the direction Blizz has taken with the cosmology. Making six equal cosmic forces instead of just having the Light and Void be the top and Life, Death, Order, and Disorder as minor powers beneath them has simultaneously demystified everything about the original lore and convoluted it to high hell.
    Last edited by TyrannicalPuppy; 2021-04-24 at 08:13 PM.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrannicalPuppy View Post
    You're still missing my point. I repeat: I am using the word "Nature" as an umbrella term for all powers drawn from the Great Dark Beyond.
    I'm not missing the point. You're using the word in a way that it was never defined as to begin with.

    Whether anything is "natural" in a world that was constructed from the start is rather questionable.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Whether anything is "natural" in a world that was constructed from the start is rather questionable.
    So if God exists IRL then nothing is natural either? That's extremely faulty reasoning.

    Nature as a concept would not function in the Warcraft universe without the elements. A word can have multiple meanings.
    Last edited by TyrannicalPuppy; 2021-04-24 at 10:23 PM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrannicalPuppy View Post
    So if God exists IRL then nothing is natural either? That's extremely faulty reasoning.
    Anything He created wouldn't be, no. And that's not faulty reasoning, that's just what the word means.

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