Poll: Would giving up part of Ashenvale have guaranteed peace between the two sides?

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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Dazmalak View Post
    And yet instead of bringing the Alliance up to the level of the Horde, they kicked the Horde down to the level of the Alliance. Contrary to my teasing, I actually wanted to see more bite from the Alliance. More conflict, more aggression and thirst for revenge because those are very natural and human reactions towards a group of aliens that came from another planet and started slaughtering everything in sight. I think this was possible without making them "Horde 2.0", but instead they chose to keep the Alliance reactive and passive in most cases, always on the defensive and always "in the right"; which is a disservice to both sides and what I believe is the reason the faction war lost the interest of many fans. Their recent attempts with Tyrande fall flat because she is more or less acting alone, which paints her as a fringe lunatic rather than having a rational response to their home being razed.

    But hey, now we can hold hands and fight whatever villain of the week from another dimension pops up to threaten "our" world. Isn't that what you wanted?
    Amen to all of this. I am so sick to death of Alliance passiveness and forgiveness. Whenever an Alliance character does buck the trend, like Genn, Jaina, or Tyrande, they're chastised for it (and, in the case of the women, considered to have gone crazy). Now Genn* and Jaina have gone back to essentially being toothless and Tyrande's Night Warrior power-up seems to be more bark than bite when actually put to the test. Canonically, I believe the Alliance is supposed to have won all these wars, but as a player it sure doesn't feel like it. I would actually prefer we lost the war if we actually got to inflict some real injury to the Horde for once.

    * I do love the surrogate father/son relationship between Genn and Anduin, but Anduin really drags Genn's character down when it comes to how he could have been. It feels like since Stormheim Genn has just been pacified by Anduin and it's boring. It's one of the reasons I hate Anduin's character, he basically ruins every other Alliance character around him. We would've had a much better story going forth with Varian.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    I wanted one or another.

    We EITHER settle things down and stop with fucken faction wars because Alliance never does anything about it...

    OR

    Alliance actually goes full bananas and dishes out humiliating and absolutely genocidal defeats to the horde but then horde retaliates and we settle for a war but with a restored parity between factions.

    And yes, villains of the week CAN be fun. But not straight after horde nearly wiping out one race and threatening to do the same with the whole faction.
    Yep, the fact that Blizzard thought Lordaeron was an acceptable tit-for-tat for Teldrassil was infuriating. No, there's a big difference between women and children being unknowingly burned alive and a city that had been evacuated and weaponized to self-destruct to take out Alliance leaders. Like, how daft do you have to be to think those two scenarios were even remotely comparable?

    I will always hate the faction wars because they're so ridiculously imbalanced to favor the Horde with the sole cost of having to sacrifice a warchief. I'll gladly sacrifice Anduin if the Alliance can have an expansion of total domination for once with a footnote at the end that says Horde won without ever actually displaying that in game.
    "We must now recognize that the greatest threat of freedom for us all is if we go back to eating ourselves out from within." - John Anderson

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    Amen to all of this. I am so sick to death of Alliance passiveness and forgiveness. Whenever an Alliance character does buck the trend, like Genn, Jaina, or Tyrande, they're chastised for it (and, in the case of the women, considered to have gone crazy). Now Genn* and Jaina have gone back to essentially being toothless and Tyrande's Night Warrior power-up seems to be more bark than bite when actually put to the test. Canonically, I believe the Alliance is supposed to have won all these wars, but as a player it sure doesn't feel like it. I would actually prefer we lost the war if we actually got to inflict some real injury to the Horde for once.

    * I do love the surrogate father/son relationship between Genn and Anduin, but Anduin really drags Genn's character down when it comes to how he could have been. It feels like since Stormheim Genn has just been pacified by Anduin and it's boring. It's one of the reasons I hate Anduin's character, he basically ruins every other Alliance character around him. We would've had a much better story going forth with Varian.



    Yep, the fact that Blizzard thought Lordaeron was an acceptable tit-for-tat for Teldrassil was infuriating. No, there's a big difference between women and children being unknowingly burned alive and a city that had been evacuated and weaponized to self-destruct to take out Alliance leaders. Like, how daft do you have to be to think those two scenarios were even remotely comparable?

    I will always hate the faction wars because they're so ridiculously imbalanced to favor the Horde with the sole cost of having to sacrifice a warchief. I'll gladly sacrifice Anduin if the Alliance can have an expansion of total domination for once with a footnote at the end that says Horde won without ever actually displaying that in game.
    Preach. Having to sit through another “forgive-fest” while not having any real justice done and also knowing that horde will be up at it again an expansion or two later is the reason i quitted WoW and will never come back. Being a passive bitch that gets all the kicks and then has to make up with their enemies sucks ass.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    Yep, the fact that Blizzard thought Lordaeron was an acceptable tit-for-tat for Teldrassil was infuriating. No, there's a big difference between women and children being unknowingly burned alive and a city that had been evacuated and weaponized to self-destruct to take out Alliance leaders. Like, how daft do you have to be to think those two scenarios were even remotely comparable?
    The interesting thing is that if they had evacuated the Kaldorei they could have the same expansion but without any of the problems.
    It's mine if Sylvanas let them evacuate.

    It made sense for us to reveal ourselves because Sylvanas was honorable. Even Jaina's brother
    Peace in the end makes sense.

    But you don't have to show that you don't even think things are half-patch ahead.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    You just say that because you don't like him. There is zero proof of your statement. It's just your headcanon.
    They're only wrong in limiting Garrosh's scope to Kalimdor. He wanted the whole of Azeroth. And before you go off and say "Well that's just because you didn't like him!" He says it himself. In the transition to the third phase in Heroic-turned-Mythic Siege of Orgrimmar he yells "I have SEEN it. IT HAS SHOWN ME. I HAVE SEEN MOUNTAINS OF SKULLS AND RIVERS OF BLOOD. AND I WILL... HAVE... MY... WORLD!"

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    You just say that because you don't like him. There is zero proof of your statement. It's just your headcanon.

    The fact we do know is that Garrosh acted after being refused Ashenvale's resources by the Night Elves, an act that further starved Orgrimmar. It was a decision of taking the resources by force or starving to death, so war made sense.

    Had the Night Elves shared their resources Orgrimmar wouldn't be starving in the first place, Garrosh might not even have been appointed Warchief. Thrall chose him in the first place because of this situation and that war was inevitable as a result of it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You're taking that quote way too literally. It's just a statement of taking action, taking matters in their own hands and providing a better future for the Horde. Don't forget that they lost their homeworld and were intruders and chained, they just want to survive and thrive, something that is constantly threatened by the Alliance and other forces.

    Don't forget war was declared by Varian after the Battle of Undercity and the Wrathgate. The Alliance started this whole mess. The Night Elves started with starving Orgrimmar. The Horde fought back hard. Why blame them?
    Right.. let's just ignore the bombing of Stonetalon mountains, the invasion of Felwood, the almost complete take over of Ashenvale and increasing hostilities around Kalimdor..

  6. #106
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    Garrosh used Ashenvale as an excuse. Neither he nor Thrall put any effort into irrigating Durotar to support plant life, in fact, Garrosh allowed the goblins to poison Orgrimmar's nearest water supplies so that he was reliant on shipments of fresh water from Mulgore. He also allowed the goblins to stripmine lumber-rich Azshara for mining quarries. Furthermore, the night elves had a trade deal worked out to begin lumber shipments, the disruption of which Garrosh answered with violence rather than trying to get to the root of the problem, address the problem, and thus get the lumber shipments back on track.

    Considering his hyperfixation on taking over Kalimdor, and the rest of Azeroth after, his talking about the lumber in Ashenvale (blaming the night elves but conveniently leaving out all the other context like how Hamuul sought to start smoothing over relations only for the meeting to be attacked by orcs, something Garrosh proceeded to completely ignore after the mak'gora with Cairne that the attack incited) was very clearly meant as a jingoistic talking point where he presented the issue in a vacuum to generate easy outrage by positioning the Horde as put-upon victims rather than consistently, grossly negligent in diplomacy surrounding the Ashenvale situation (which is what led to the night elves picking sides in the first place as the post-Third War treaties began breaking down).

    He was going to find some other excuse for the campaign if the night elves hadn't stopped the lumber shipments, because the night elves had committed the unforgivable sin, in Garrosh's eyes, of not being subservient to the Horde.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post



    Ashenvale was the primary cause of Alliance and Horde's tensions in Kalimdor -- Durotar and Orgrimmar lacked the essential resources to sustain their population properly after the Third War, and the night elves seemed less than willing to provide them. It has been a major point of conflict -- in the original game, Cataclysm, in the Fourth War, etc.

    As far as we know, Tyrande giving Azshara to the Horde was able to guarantee at least several years of peace, as the Horde abandoned most of their outposts in Ashenvale.

    What if Tyrande and her night elves just gave the orcs half their territory? Would that have settled tensions between them permanently, and perhaps even averted or settled the Alliance-Horde faction conflict once and for all?
    never negociate with terrorists,if this wasnt an mmo that had to shoe horn in bullshit stuff,the orcs would have all been massacred after the war,that would have been the rational and moral thing to do

    and whats even more silly is that even if the orcs survive the initial war,the elves should have been more than able to anihilate them once they enetered their territory

    and then jaina again could have destroyed orgrimmar but didnt...

    and at the end of pandaria they could have wiped them out...

    not to mention all the bullshit times in bfa they could have moped the floor with them....

    its ridiculous how many times blizzard saves the horde as a faction when it makes no sense for them to exists...they started from zero after thrall saved them and now they are competing with demi gods and huge aliances...wtf

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    I smell a stench of appeasement. And you know what happened last time someone tried appeasement?
    i don't know i wasn't into the lore pre war3 that much. they changed some voice lines in war2 orsomething?

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    i don't know i wasn't into the lore pre war3 that much. they changed some voice lines in war2 orsomething?
    Oh i was referring to WW2 and how Hitler claimed to just “seek resources to ensure stability and future for the Germany” and Britain decided to “appease” him by allowing Germany to take more and more land from other European countries. We all know how that ended.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Oh i was referring to WW2 and how Hitler claimed to just “seek resources to ensure stability and future for the Germany” and Britain decided to “appease” him by allowing Germany to take more and more land from other European countries. We all know how that ended.
    This whole thing made me think that even though people claim we shouldn't mix real life with a videogame in the end the video game took an example from real life situations.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    This whole thing made me think that even though people claim we shouldn't mix real life with a videogame in the end the video game took an example from real life situations.
    I think it's fine for very limited comparisons but usually, RL situations are way more complex than some simple game stuff that instead of developing naturally things get twisted so the plot happens.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    This whole thing made me think that even though people claim we shouldn't mix real life with a videogame in the end the video game took an example from real life situations.
    Well, yes. Actually when whole thing started he took the stance of a humanitarian - seeking to alleviate Germany crisis... Claiming how it was robbed of necessary land and materials for suvival and how "german people are starving" and so on.

    Btw his rhetorics against jews began with insinuations that jewish traders/businessmen are profiting from germans misfortune and that jews consuming resources that would save Germany otherwise or somehow "steal" from Germany.

    For slavs he chose another approach claiming that they possesses vast amounts of land and resources but not using it, simply living there without doing their utmost to turn all those natural riches into wealth. (Like what horde often accuses night elves of). And that only german farmers and industrialists have skills and most importantly - motivation to dig the ore, plough the fields and cut the wood and turn it into GDP and safer future for Germany (and other european countries, as he often implied).

    Obviously that was all a steaming hot pile of crap but he kept harping on it and many believed. And that really lines up with what horde often states while justifying their wars.
    Last edited by VladlTutushkin; 2021-04-19 at 08:47 PM.

  13. #113
    There's like a zero percent chance that after Russia takes Crimea it will leave the rest of Ukraine alone.

    ERRM! I mean... The Horde... and... Ashenvale...

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    There's like a zero percent chance that after Russia takes Crimea it will leave the rest of Ukraine alone.

    ERRM! I mean... The Horde... and... Ashenvale...
    Russia and Crimea is more of a Lordaeron situation actually so you are not right on the money. Crimea even was part of Russian SSR until last general secretary overdosed on vodka and wanted to "add a neat piece" to his home SSR (Ukrainian) and just fucken said so and stamped it. And since he was a general secretary of Communist Party... yeah you can guess.

  15. #115
    Why would there be?
    Alliance has to die.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Shedaar View Post
    Why would there be?
    Alliance has to die.
    Remind me, how many times horde tried to "die" Alliance and it all ended up with Alliance petting you on the back as you whinge?

    Every. Fucken. Time.

    It is a very one sided "rivalry" if i ever saw one.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Oh i was referring to WW2 and how Hitler claimed to just “seek resources to ensure stability and future for the Germany” and Britain decided to “appease” him by allowing Germany to take more and more land from other European countries. We all know how that ended.
    and you think that would have been the case if the horde had had a less warmongering leader instead of garrosh? im confused.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Russia and Crimea is more of a Lordaeron situation actually so you are not right on the money. Crimea even was part of Russian SSR until last general secretary overdosed on vodka and wanted to "add a neat piece" to his home SSR (Ukrainian) and just fucken said so and stamped it. And since he was a general secretary of Communist Party... yeah you can guess.
    pfff. at least in wow we can say with certainty that particular conflict was about the people, IRL that's just an excuse usually.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    and you think that would have been the case if the horde had had a less warmongering leader instead of garrosh? im confused.

    - - - Updated - - -



    pfff. at least in wow we can say with certainty that particular conflict was about the people, IRL that's just an excuse usually.
    Also Russian was using Crimea as our Black Sea fleet base since... well since ever. Since Imperial times even. All through USSR and then after it too. And not just some ships parked there, whole infrastructure, support stuff, personnel... Hell, most Black Sea fleet sailors and marines actually live in Crimea.

    So you can see the problem here.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post



    Ashenvale was the primary cause of Alliance and Horde's tensions in Kalimdor -- Durotar and Orgrimmar lacked the essential resources to sustain their population properly after the Third War, and the night elves seemed less than willing to provide them. It has been a major point of conflict -- in the original game, Cataclysm, in the Fourth War, etc.

    As far as we know, Tyrande giving Azshara to the Horde was able to guarantee at least several years of peace, as the Horde abandoned most of their outposts in Ashenvale.

    What if Tyrande and her night elves just gave the orcs half their territory? Would that have settled tensions between them permanently, and perhaps even averted or settled the Alliance-Horde faction conflict once and for all?
    Then after that it would have been: Well we need more and more and more, give an inch show weakness and they will take a mile. If you bend the knee regarding YOUR OWN LAND to not be attacked its like giving the bully your lunch money and expecting them not to come back for another shake down.

    It's a slippery slope there and the situation isn't as black and white. Now if there was a way for them to mutually work together and create trade/business/commerce to boost each others economic statuses that could have helped bridge the gap between Horde and Alliance then that would have been amazing. However the way they literally wrote the story was: orc go zug zug, give land, no give land, we take.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    There's like a zero percent chance that after Russia takes Crimea it will leave the rest of Ukraine alone.

    ERRM! I mean... The Horde... and... Ashenvale...
    Um... Crimea belonged to Russia during centuries, it was only in the 1960s that Jruschov bequeathed those regions upon the SSR of Ukraine (which at the time belonged to the USSR anyway) for reasons unknown. It isn't really comparable.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
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