View Poll Results: Would giving up part of Ashenvale have guaranteed peace between the two sides?

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  • Yes, it probably would have

    21 7.92%
  • No, it probably wouldn't have

    233 87.92%
  • Other / I'm not sure

    11 4.15%
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  1. #141
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    You just say that because you don't like him. There is zero proof of your statement. It's just your headcanon.
    we have many proof, idk everything that happened after wotlk is literally proof mate...

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    It takes approximately three years or so for them to turn an untouched, pristine zone into a wasteland apparently.
    or 15 seconds if we look at what the horde did to the vale of eternal blossoms, both mining for the heart, and then well using the heart...

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by eillas View Post
    Garrosh was a warmongerer, if it wasn't the wood, it would have been something else. He desired war, he was a hot headed fighter who had a vision where the horde would dominate all.
    Garrosh was a reaction to the slavery and oppression of the Alliance of Evil. He was welcomed to Azeroth by other natives, including the Tauren and Trolls. He taught the natives of Azeroth how to fight against the oppression of the Alliance of Evil. He was the greatest Warchief of the Horde, until Warchief Sylvanas burned that corrupted, infested tree. The Alliance of Evil persists in their racist attempt to exclude certain native races of Azeroth from enjoying her bounty.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    Amen to all of this. I am so sick to death of Alliance passiveness and forgiveness. Whenever an Alliance character does buck the trend, like Genn, Jaina, or Tyrande, they're chastised for it (and, in the case of the women, considered to have gone crazy). Now Genn* and Jaina have gone back to essentially being toothless and Tyrande's Night Warrior power-up seems to be more bark than bite when actually put to the test. Canonically, I believe the Alliance is supposed to have won all these wars, but as a player it sure doesn't feel like it. I would actually prefer we lost the war if we actually got to inflict some real injury to the Horde for once.
    A big reason for this is the way phasing was done in Cataclysm. Pretty much universally, when the Horde won, the world changed to reflect that (e.g. The Swamp of Sorrows), whereas if the Alliance won the world stayed one where the Horde was fighting them (e.g. Ashenvale). This made it feel like the Alliance never won anywhere, rather than mostly losing (even though there's no sensible way it could've done so in many cases).

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    In BFA basically the alliance wins. The rebellion only hurries things.

    And that in all BFA they do not let the alliance fight 100%. Not even the Kaldorei can fight 100% in all BFA.
    How does Alliance win if the only thing that saved us from being obliterated at the gates of Orgrimmar is Saurfang's Mak'gora?
    Did you see the army that stood outside the city?
    It was maybe 1/10 of what happened at Lordaeron.
    Everyone was out of stamina/people/supplies and Sylvanas held the high ground.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    He was going to find some other excuse for the campaign if the night elves hadn't stopped the lumber shipments, because the night elves had committed the unforgivable sin, in Garrosh's eyes, of not being subservient to the Horde.
    Not being subservient to the ORCS that were, to his mind, the only really important part of the Horde. Garrosh's Horde was very Orc-centric, even before it just became all about him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Um... Crimea belonged to Russia during centuries, it was only in the 1960s that Jruschov bequeathed those regions upon the SSR of Ukraine (which at the time belonged to the USSR anyway) for reasons unknown. It isn't really comparable.
    Well, given the geography it makes some sense for the Crimean Peninsula to be administered from Ukraine when they're all part of the same country. It did make for a mess when the USSR broke up though, and Putin's imperialism isn't making for a clean solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    pre wod or post wod -.- ? because sadly before wod sh8t on all established lore blizz went out of their way to show how shamanatic orcs were, and how they were idiots who got tricked to war with long detailed plan
    we literally don't know what is wod official lore yet, we are waiting so far 8? years for blizz to answer us about the big pile of sh8t that was WoD lore and its stand on canon, also how they sh8tconned all major orc figures to make them like WoD is really concerning
    sometimes i hate how blizz just sh8t on wc3, if not for wc3 i may not even liked horde, they are now horrible in comparison to wc3 version of themselves
    Pre- or post-WoD doesn't matter. Orcs are warlike. If they weren't, selling them on conquest would've been a lot harder, and on both Draenors in both timelines the vast majority went with "Conquer!"

  6. #146
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    It would, like it was in the Wc3, war between orcss and elves started again exactly because the night elves could not stand share resources/the place, at that point they were a xenophobic culture of reclusive people hat people seems to forget about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    In “War Crimes” when Anduin asked Garrosh a “what if” question on would have there being peace if Alliance just gave horde resources Garrosh just grunted that it was not about resources.
    of course he would say that at that point, they already had changed his character and he already went too far
    Plus horde had clearly shown that they cannot use land responsibly when they demolished Azshara in less then three years to the point where water there became too toxic to drink and resources were wasted.
    Azshara was already "demolished" by itself even before the events of wow being overuned by demons and undead in the events of reign of chaos, the goblins in cata just dumbed down the place


    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Apparently they had enough resources for war and that is usually pretty resource intensive
    they had after, Garrosh took it by force and managed better what they already had, Thrall made the orcs forces spread to thin around the world,

    Also no, as BfA made clear: the vast majority of the Horde is fundamentally evil and they simply enjoy killing. Giving them more territory would have maybe extended the truce a little bit, but not for long.
    no it didn't, and is rly ugly to lie like that.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2021-04-20 at 01:49 AM.

  7. #147
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    and alliance doesn't do that? in fact if u go idiot way, gnomes are arguably most idiotic race with how they f8cked themselves
    no race showed restrains against nature except nelfs/taurens in wow so far
    Not to the same level, no. Humans at most suffer from their land deteriorating, not an abuse of resources. All elves and trolls value their forests and live alongside nature/spirits in some way.

    So honestly the only terrible Alliance groups are gnomes and maybe dwarves, who still pale compared goblin/orc destruction. But it doesn't matter, because orcs/goblins are the ones demanding trees from NEs and it's usually wasted on short-sighted ventures.

    And ignoring the trees, Garrosh and Sylvanas didn't care about those. They wanted death. The conflict was inevitable and the forests would've been sacrificed in vain.
    Last edited by Rozz; 2021-04-20 at 02:04 AM.
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  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shedaar View Post
    How does Alliance win if the only thing that saved us from being obliterated at the gates of Orgrimmar is Saurfang's Mak'gora?
    Did you see the army that stood outside the city?
    It was maybe 1/10 of what happened at Lordaeron.
    Everyone was out of stamina/people/supplies and Sylvanas held the high ground.
    Eh...Sylvie knew by that point the war was over. She tells Horde Loyalists during their separate ending cutscene she knew the war was going to end soon but wished it lasted a bit longer so more strong souls would go to the Shadowlands.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    A big reason for this is the way phasing was done in Cataclysm. Pretty much universally, when the Horde won, the world changed to reflect that (e.g. The Swamp of Sorrows), whereas if the Alliance won the world stayed one where the Horde was fighting them (e.g. Ashenvale). This made it feel like the Alliance never won anywhere, rather than mostly losing (even though there's no sensible way it could've done so in many cases).
    That's some bullshit right there.

    I played Swamp of Sorrows from both sides--a LOT--so I'd know. Lorewise, the Alliance won Swamp of Sorrows. In fact, the Horde version has you fighting to slow the Alliance advance so the Horde can evacuate Stonard via Mage portal or overland to the Blasted Lands. The Alliance version has you fighting stiff Horde resistance...only to find Stonard abandoned.

    As for Ashenvale. Horde wins strategically. The Night Elves do secure western Ashenvale but reinforcements from Northern Barrens restores their Horde's southern Supply chain after the Night Elves cut it. The Horde also breaks the Alliance's siege on Splintertree Post in the East. The Horde gained more than they lost in short. Of course, this does not include the Super Bomb the Horde sends to Stonetalon Mountain with devastating consequences.

    Southern Barrens and Arathi Highlands...stalemate lorewise. Andorhal...Horde wins when Sylvanas personally takes command of the Horde forces there.
    ...Ok, time to change the ol' Sig ^_^

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  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Not to the same level, no. Humans at most suffer from their land deteriorating, not an abuse of resources. All elves and trolls value their forests and live alongside nature/spirits in some way.

    So honestly the only terrible Alliance groups are gnomes and maybe dwarves, who still pale compared goblin/orc destruction. But it doesn't matter, because orcs/goblins are the ones demanding trees from NEs and it's usually wasted on short-sighted ventures.

    And ignoring the trees, Garrosh and Sylvanas didn't care about those. They wanted death. The conflict was inevitable and the forests would've been sacrificed in vain.
    The worst we have from humans is Westfall with its depleted mines and poor fields. But it is not “wasteland”. Logically speaking by now Stormwind should have just resettled the place in orderly fashion and put a strong garrison and a governor in there and be done with it.

    Plus we see that “depleted” mines are not so depleted after all and have more minerals in then (used by Defias) so basically it was more of a mismanagement or underestimation of resources then natural depletion. Or perhaps mines closed when they drafted too many miners to war.

    And even then there is also a great underground base linking it to a “cave port” or a cove which is located in Stranglethorn (where Dreadnought is). So they can use that at least.

    Gnomes dirt bombed themselves but that was one accident and it is pretty much contained to Gnomeregan. We dont see them poison other zones, unlike goblins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    Not being subservient to the ORCS that were, to his mind, the only really important part of the Horde. Garrosh's Horde was very Orc-centric, even before it just became all about him.

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    Well, given the geography it makes some sense for the Crimean Peninsula to be administered from Ukraine when they're all part of the same country. It did make for a mess when the USSR broke up though, and Putin's imperialism isn't making for a clean solution.

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    Pre- or post-WoD doesn't matter. Orcs are warlike. If they weren't, selling them on conquest would've been a lot harder, and on both Draenors in both timelines the vast majority went with "Conquer!"
    Putin had very little choice on the matter. Ukrainian politics only comparable to a third world country , African or otherwise aka they are full of shizo acts inspired purely by current populist chimping out. And Crimea was under Russian management and control because its a largest military fleet base we have.

    Ukros threatening to “sell it to NATO with the ships *bleating laughter* and the rockets” (because some speculate that part of Russia’s nuclear launch sites also located there...) Was unacceptable.

    When diplomacy failed he took over before someone did something really stupid, idk, like those morons actually selling it to NATO “with the ships and rockets” and then creating... well pretty much an insane accident cause they dont own neither the ships, nor the rockets, not the military port actually.

    But try explaining it to an ukro riding a nationalistic high... Impossible. They literally thought they could do ANYTHING, that they were invincible.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurabolt View Post
    I played Swamp of Sorrows from both sides--a LOT--so I'd know. Lorewise, the Alliance won Swamp of Sorrows. In fact, the Horde version has you fighting to slow the Alliance advance so the Horde can evacuate Stonard via Mage portal or overland to the Blasted Lands. The Alliance version has you fighting stiff Horde resistance...only to find Stonard abandoned.
    But that's not the state of the map once you've done all the quests.

    As for Ashenvale. Horde wins strategically. The Night Elves do secure western Ashenvale but reinforcements from Northern Barrens restores their Horde's southern Supply chain after the Night Elves cut it. The Horde also breaks the Alliance's siege on Splintertree Post in the East. The Horde gained more than they lost in short. Of course, this does not include the Super Bomb the Horde sends to Stonetalon Mountain with devastating consequences.
    The sieges of Astranaar and it outposts were defeated, and yet when you ride through there the phasing is such that everything is still being attacked. Yet when the Horde win, that's the state of the map after the questing is done. Thus they feel like a Horde win, no matter the lore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Plus we see that “depleted” mines are not so depleted after all and have more minerals in then (used by Defias) so basically it was more of a mismanagement or underestimation of resources then natural depletion. Or perhaps mines closed when they drafted too many miners to war.
    Or the mine managers sided with the Defias and said the mines were tapped out when they weren't.

  11. #151
    Pit Lord Aurabolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    But that's not the state of the map once you've done all the quests.
    Ever heard of phasing? You don't see changes if you don't actually...you know...do the entire quest chain from intro to end. Cata brought phasing introduced in WotLK to EK and Kalimdor to show progress.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post

    The sieges of Astranaar and it outposts were defeated, and yet when you ride through there the phasing is such that everything is still being attacked. Yet when the Horde win, that's the state of the map after the questing is done. Thus they feel like a Horde win, no matter the lore.
    Lorewise, the Alliance breaks the siege on Astranaar. Complete the chain and you don't see it being attacks anymore. This is confirmed during the BFA pre-expansion quest chain. If you're still seeing attacks, that's probably a bug. The bombers are gone after I do the quest to break the siege on my end.
    ...Ok, time to change the ol' Sig ^_^

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  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Chumahki View Post
    Garrosh was a reaction to the slavery and oppression of the Alliance of Evil. He was welcomed to Azeroth by other natives, including the Tauren and Trolls. He taught the natives of Azeroth how to fight against the oppression of the Alliance of Evil. He was the greatest Warchief of the Horde, until Warchief Sylvanas burned that corrupted, infested tree. The Alliance of Evil persists in their racist attempt to exclude certain native races of Azeroth from enjoying her bounty.
    You mean when the Horde came into Azeroth killing men women and children. Defiled holy sites, destroyed kingdoms. Attempted genocidal conquest. You seem to have a selective memory to forget the atrocities that the orcs did.

    Yeah, you are definitely seeming like an internet troll.
    Last edited by eillas; 2021-04-20 at 02:55 AM.

  13. #153
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    As long as that dead bitch was in sitting in the background playing 3D chest, peace would've never happened because she would've made sure of it in some kind of way.

  14. #154
    I'm sure someone's brought it up by now, but what Garrosh fails to mention is that that night elves had a trade agreement with the Horde for lumber. It was broken when Garrosh attacked them after they broke it off, thinking the Horde was responsible for a Twilight's Hammer attack.

    Nothing the night elves could have done would've changed that turn of events. If the Horde owned half of ashenvale, nothing would have changed, they still would have inevitably pushed into the other half.
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustedsaint View Post
    No this is Warcraft, they would write in anew reason for the fighting.
    Even if it was real life the answer would still be no. Appeasement doesn't work.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurabolt View Post
    Lorewise, the Alliance breaks the siege on Astranaar. Complete the chain and you don't see it being attacks anymore. This is confirmed during the BFA pre-expansion quest chain. If you're still seeing attacks, that's probably a bug. The bombers are gone after I do the quest to break the siege on my end.
    I did it back in the day, and last time I rode through there the Horde was still bombing the place.

  17. #157
    Ahahahaha, FUCK NO!

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    Pre- or post-WoD doesn't matter. Orcs are warlike. If they weren't, selling them on conquest would've been a lot harder, and on both Draenors in both timelines the vast majority went with "Conquer!"
    it does, read rise of the horde, KJ had to work really hard to convince them to attack their peaceful neighbors, in fact orcs as far we know never initiated war in their homeland, always on defense
    But as i said blizz already sh8t on it so f8ck it anyway i guess
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  19. #159
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonrage View Post
    This is some top tier victim blaming.

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    Those sentient creatures that live in Ashenvale all have ties to the Night Elves, so yes it is Night Elf territory.
    More like night elf protectorate. Furbolg, dryads, keepers etc. are their own beings inhabiting the forest that are affiliated with the kaldorei but not part of them. In order for the night elves to dictate what's up in the region they would do so either through might over the rest or be given that power willingly. I surmise everyone's just co-existing in harmony and allowing the night elves to call the shots when it's wartime.

    In any case, my point wasn't so much the legality of it but the sentiment: The night elves see themselves as the protectors of the forest and its creatures. It's not just plots of land and resources to be used as bargaining chips, it's populated region. Wartime is a good reason to temporarily relocate or to join garrisons to protect the land, but this is about just giving their lands up to the enemy rather than fight for it. A furbolg village or a keeper grove may not be willing to go with it. At that point the night elves would either abandon the deal, returning us back to square one, or abandon the creatures they've sworn to protect. They can't just force them to comply at gunpoint.

    I don't remember if Azshara had furbolg and such when it was a neutral territory, but by the time it was officially given to the Horde they had already conquered and ravaged it anyway, and everyone were exhausted by war. A curious thing though: I thought the same deal require Horde to pull all their forces out of Ashenvale, yet in War of Thorns we learn Zoram'gar outpost is still in operation.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Guarantee? No. Any blood spilled in any conflict could have arisen any new mongering warlord hellbent on killing everyone else. Even if Garrosh had been properly mentored, even if the Orcs were respectful of nature, took on druidism, and planted trees to replace what they took
    They WERE doing that via an agreement between the orcs and the night elves. The latter unilaterally cancelled the agreement after the Wrathgate incident.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

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