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  1. #81
    Elemental Lord Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    One thing that annoys me about some of the modern dungeons is that many are just reused outdoor areas you've been to before. A dungeon historically used to be a completely new area.
    That's mainly a factor of flying being introduced, and it's more the opposite. It's not that dungeons are "reused outdoor areas" it's that they're placing completed dungeons into the outdoor world because that's where they exist and you can fly around them now.

    Dungeons, raids, and cities are designed by a different team from the outdoor world level designers.


    In Classic and BC a lot of the dungeon assets were also shared. Not many unique enemies, if any, and the architecture and doodads were shared by between 2-4 dungeons, all basically "wings" of a single dungeon. It did have more dungeons, but not really more variety.

    That started to change in Wrath.
    Last edited by Kathranis; 2021-04-21 at 05:42 PM.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    Amount of dungeons =/= quality of dungeons.

    I'd rather take 3 new King's Rests than another Seat of the Triumvirate.
    Well, i enjoyed Seat.

    And i agree, quality of dungeons is way more important, than the pure quantity. But, and for me this is a real big but, with the chore of doing 4-10 dungeons per week per char for that great vault lottery, there should be way more dungeons to not burn the players out. AND the quality of the SL dungeons isnt that high (in my opinion). I dont enjoy most of em.

    HoA feels like a real Dungeon, but its to easy.
    Spires uhm no. Just no. Flying aroung instead of figting mobs.....and boss design is annoying
    MOTS - yes.....Trash and boss mechanic relying on simple IQ test stuff is dark humor, but not fun
    dos - hell i luv that dungeon best dungeon in sl for me
    SD - i like that 1, but the gauntlett is a pug breaker on some affixes...
    NW - Its ok, nothing real good, but at least not to annoying
    ToP - a little to long, but ok
    PF - unfun trash mechanics, unfun boss mechanics and slime everywhere...

    so, in my opinion, SL is lacking on quality and quantity dungeon wise

  3. #83
    We got 8 dungeons in SL this time instead of 10 because they allocated resources into making the Torghast wings.

  4. #84
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    That's mainly a factor of flying being introduced, and it's more the opposite. It's not that dungeons are "reused outdoor areas" it's that they're placing completed dungeons into the outdoor world because that's where they exist and you can fly around them now.
    That doesn't seem like an honest argument.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Bee76 View Post
    Well, i enjoyed Seat.

    And i agree, quality of dungeons is way more important, than the pure quantity. But, and for me this is a real big but, with the chore of doing 4-10 dungeons per week per char for that great vault lottery, there should be way more dungeons to not burn the players out. AND the quality of the SL dungeons isnt that high (in my opinion). I dont enjoy most of em.

    HoA feels like a real Dungeon, but its to easy.
    Spires uhm no. Just no. Flying aroung instead of figting mobs.....and boss design is annoying
    MOTS - yes.....Trash and boss mechanic relying on simple IQ test stuff is dark humor, but not fun
    dos - hell i luv that dungeon best dungeon in sl for me
    SD - i like that 1, but the gauntlett is a pug breaker on some affixes...
    NW - Its ok, nothing real good, but at least not to annoying
    ToP - a little to long, but ok
    PF - unfun trash mechanics, unfun boss mechanics and slime everywhere...

    so, in my opinion, SL is lacking on quality and quantity dungeon wise
    To be fair, I personally think BfA dungeons were the best.
    Especially Atal'dazar and Freehold for me. I also liked Waycrest but people being stupid af not knowing where to go made me drop that one after doing one 21 in time. Never went back to it.

    SL dungeons are still way above Legion dungeons for me, and Legion dungeons are way above everything pre-Legion already.

    Also, we're already getting a mega-dungeon in the first content patch, which translates to 2 new keystones from 9.2 (or 9.1.5 we'll see) already.
    The expansion is nowhere near done.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    That doesn't seem like an honest argument.
    With respect, you haven't really engaged with any argument fairly either. Clear evidence has been presented that dungeon numbers dropped way before M+, as well a compelling argument that dungeon design has changed (i.e. dungeons becoming distinct, rather than very similar wings aesthetically), to which you haven't provided any reasonable or meaningful response to.

  7. #87
    Elemental Lord Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    That doesn't seem like an honest argument.
    It's the truth. Watch the BTS DVDs, they talked about it. Dungeons are designed by a different team (same team does raids and cities) and then incorporated into the world.

    They started doing with some in Wrath, and retroactively did it in Cataclysm when they added flying, like to Zul'Gurub for example. Mists is when they embraced it and decided to start making the outdoor versions of the dungeon areas part of the questing experience.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You mean like the three HFC dungeons and raid being a copy of the outside of HFC? Or the 3 SSC dungeons and raid being a copy of the outside of SSC? Or the three dungeons and raid of TK being the same as the outside of TK, or the four Auch dungeons being a copy of the outside of Auch?

    Or ZF just being another sandy ruiny area of Tanaris?
    No I mean like the actual place you were at before in the outdoor world / quested itself is reused for the dungeon setting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    It's the truth. Watch the BTS DVDs, they talked about it. Dungeons are designed by a different team (same team does raids and cities) and then incorporated into the world.

    They started doing with some in Wrath, and retroactively did it in Cataclysm when they added flying, like to Zul'Gurub for example. Mists is when they embraced it and decided to start making the outdoor versions of the dungeon areas part of the questing experience.
    There's still a major distinction between being able to see the outdoor part of a dungeon out in the world for placement, and actually revisiting the exact place you were outdoors questing, but it's a dungeon.

    Examples:
    Mechagon junkyard
    Mists of Tirna
    Seat of the Triumvirate
    Plaguefall
    Halls of Atonement

    Some dungeons are a hybrid where you start off in the area then go into spaces unique to the dungeon.

    It's preferable to me if dungeons are more like the 2nd half of Mechagon. The workshop part is totally unique. Same with many of the other dungeons like Sanguine Depths where sure you can see the outside of the castle while questing, but the dungeon itself is allowing you to explore the interior or something completely new.

    I don't care if you can see Mechagon, Shado-pan Monastery, Stormstout Brewery, Karazhan, etc the exterior while questing, that's not my point. My point is if I already explored the area and quested in it as an outdoor spot, just seeing it instanced with bosses added doesn't feel like something good enough to be added as a dungeon.
    Last edited by ro9ue; 2021-04-21 at 09:44 PM.

  9. #89
    Herald of the Titans
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    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    For a 10 year old member you sure have a bad memory for how the game was played before mythic+ was shoved onto the masses.
    You think so? Megadungeons is not a new thing to tell you honestly they existed even since vanilla.

    Dire Maul, BRD are examples.

    Vanilla Mega-dungeons:
    Scarlet Monastery Mega-dungeon
    Mauradon Mega-dungeon
    Blackrock Depths Mega-dungeon


    WotLK
    the Frozen Halls mega-dungeon
    Last edited by vertigo12; 2021-04-21 at 11:40 PM.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    No I mean like the actual place you were at before in the outdoor world / quested itself is reused for the dungeon setting.

    - - - Updated - - -



    There's still a major distinction between being able to see the outdoor part of a dungeon out in the world for placement, and actually revisiting the exact place you were outdoors questing, but it's a dungeon.

    Examples:
    Mechagon junkyard
    Mists of Tirna
    Seat of the Triumvirate
    Plaguefall
    Halls of Atonement

    Some dungeons are a hybrid where you start off in the area then go into spaces unique to the dungeon.

    It's preferable to me if dungeons are more like the 2nd half of Mechagon. The workshop part is totally unique. Same with many of the other dungeons like Sanguine Depths where sure you can see the outside of the castle while questing, but the dungeon itself is allowing you to explore the interior or something completely new.

    I don't care if you can see Mechagon, Shado-pan Monastery, Stormstout Brewery, Karazhan, etc the exterior while questing, that's not my point. My point is if I already explored the area and quested in it as an outdoor spot, just seeing it instanced with bosses added doesn't feel like something good enough to be added as a dungeon.
    Hm. Seat of the Triumvirate did that. Zul'farrak is explorable outdoors since they added flying. First half of Mechagon like you said. End Time, Hour of Twilight, and Dragon Soul did it. You could see an open world version of Firelands off in the distance when in Molten Front. Atal'dazar can be explored outside instance. That's it for right off the top of my head.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  11. #91
    Herald of the Titans
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    It's the truth. Watch the BTS DVDs, they talked about it. Dungeons are designed by a different team (same team does raids and cities) and then incorporated into the world.

    They started doing with some in Wrath, and retroactively did it in Cataclysm when they added flying, like to Zul'Gurub for example. Mists is when they embraced it and decided to start making the outdoor versions of the dungeon areas part of the questing experience.
    It started with Vanilla. Remember the outside oasis of WC and the cave part before entering the caverns itself? Same deal with Uldaman before reaching the dungeon portal itself.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    I already did that but thanks I guess?
    Not in that great detail with all the necessary information, like world bosses which are replacement for 1 boss raids like Gruul or Onyxia

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