Ex-players cheering for the game to fail.

[HansOlo]

Pretending that your "favorite take" is the norm is your problem. Just about every take I've seen from ex-players, including myself, has involved them not knowing their audience and trying to warp the game into something that appeals to a broad range of people. Casualizing the experience so ma and pa can play WoW too! Adding in farmville-esque systems to get the boomers involved! Making a game called WARcraft kid-friendly!

They don't know their audience and it has fled for just about every other game. The balkanization of the original WoW community that began after Wrath with many going to different games that appeal more to them, quitting completely, or staying and making the best out of it has been strong and undeniable.

The main issue I have: They're spending more money on inferior quality rather than less on superior. Gimmick gameplay systems like covenants, randomized loot drops for pvp, cross server group finders to trivialize content, all of these things took them quite a bit of money to make when they could've simply not done any of them and retained more players.

But anyway, white knights are gonna white knight. Blizz can do no wrong (though the TANKING sub numbers for a straight decade beg to differ) and everything is peachy!

- - - Updated - - -

You say this as if WoW Raids are particularly good anymore. Recycled mechanics and bad loot mechanics are the main feature today. The environments might be pretty and interesting to see but you can just queue LFR or take a shot on a game like GW2 which also has raids and has much much better quality content outside of them.

It's peachy and they can't do wrong. You are not forced to play after all.

Also - you say this as if your opinion matter more or that you know more than some established company of what thier customers demands.

You are like a swiss knife of devs, marketing and Steve Jobs!

[Tadkins]

The flak I give people about raider.io, with the ways they are making people have 220 to get 210 drops, for instance, is simply something I have always thought absurd, so I like to poke the defenders of it, because I can. I also really love to piss off the people who love to say "You don't deserve X, you f-ing scrub!" I never did play WoW to 'do work' or 'work hard'. I do that at my job, and they pay me for it. So sue me. I think people should be able to advance their characters however works best for them, and the whole "You don't need to advance because you don't do it the way I do" is a line of bullshit. YMMV.

Very true. Currently unsubbed due to computer issues but I'm not really sure I want to come back. The amount of work you have to do to be able to do anything in the game has gotten out of hand, and there doesn't appear to be much of a game left if you don't want to.

"Everyone can do the content! All you have to do is...
-Download a mess of addons and learn how to work each individual string.
-Learn how to log yourself and analyze them.
-Learn how to sim your gear and naviagate all the complex numbers and variables for optimal performance.
-Watch hours of videos related to the dungeons and raids you want to run, and closely study the streamers playing your chosen class and spec.
-Navigate the increasingly harsh and elitist community trying to find a group of players or a guild you can click with, oftentimes spending hundreds of dollars on server and faction transfer fees.
-Perform perfectly in the dungeons when you run them the first time, otherwise you're considered selfish because how dare you waste someone's time by making a mistake and wiping while trying to learn."

And then when you admit that hey, all of that might be overwhelming and you just want a viable pathway to play the game without the need for all of that, you're pounced on and called every name in the book. It's depressing and daunting as hell.

[Frozenbro]

You say this as if WoW Raids are particularly good anymore. Recycled mechanics and bad loot mechanics are the main feature today. The environments might be pretty and interesting to see but you can just queue LFR or take a shot on a game like GW2 which also has raids and has much much better quality content outside of them.

He meant that since end game raids is his main content he cant move on from wow cause every other mmo has trash raids as end game (if they have raids to begin with), and its hard to deny that, wow content outside raids being subpar to say the least aside.

[Niwes]

At the risk of sounding elitist... insensitive... etc. I think that most (not all, but most) of the issues that I read here on MMOC can be corrected by people taking a different approach to how they play this game. 3 simple words... Join a guild.

"Shadowlands sucks, I spend 11 hours in M+ queue a day"
Join a guild that does M+

"There's so social aspect anymore. People hearth as soon as the raid/dungeon boss is dead"
Join a guild where people talk/socialize

"The requirements for group finder are so steep. People want me to link 5 mythic kills for Heroic Sire"
Join a guild that raids heroic CN.

I'm not saying that WoW isn't riddled with issues... it is. But if your issues are similar to the above, I would argue that you can fix them yourself without relying on Blizzard. Without joining a guild, WoW is a much much much worse video game. I tried it myself just to see, and I hated.

I know this doesn't cover all of what you are talking about OP, but to those who dropped Shadowlands for reasons similar to the ones I listed, I think if they came back and changed their approach, there is fun to be had here. Pugging anything < Running with Guild.

there is a lot of truth in this. agree to 100%.

but that does also mean, that „these individuals“, the op quoted, have a reason to complain. the facts WHY they cant, dont or wont join a guild asside, when the game is shit as hell in their experience, its just natural that they complain.

[Frozenbro]

"Everyone can do the content! All you have to do is...
-Download a mess of addons and learn how to work each individual string.
-Learn how to log yourself and analyze them.
-Learn how to sim your gear and naviagate all the complex numbers and variables for optimal performance.
-Watch hours of videos related to the dungeons and raids you want to run, and closely study the streamers playing your chosen class and spec.
-Navigate the increasingly harsh and elitist community trying to find a group of players or a guild you can click with, oftentimes spending hundreds of dollars on server and faction transfer fees.
-Perform perfectly in the dungeons when you run them the first time, otherwise you're considered selfish because how dare you waste someone's time by making a mistake and wiping while trying to learn."

All of this is what people do when they wanna step up their game to mythic raid, something im pretty sure you are very far away from doing, but hey, you probably know better than a mythic raider with CE with your 0 playtime on shadowlands given you have no pc.

[Niwes]

WoW definitely has a very large hate club of ex-players. More so than any other game probably. The reason is probably that people get very invested in WoW and then when the game is not developed according to their wishes they can't deal with it mentally and have to take it out somewhere.

but this is, at least to me, somewhat understandable.

they committed themselfes on a product with a specific design. and invested in it (a lot of time and effort). when Blizz now changes this product heavily to something that ppl never had committed themselfes to, they are pissed. thats natural.

when you commit yourself to a great rockband and support them and fly around the planet on every gig of them, for lets say 8 years, i am sure as hell such fans are very pissed when that band starting to make punk music or folk rock.

idk, to me this is understandable.

[Tadkins]

there is a lot of truth in this. agree to 100%.

but that does also mean, that „these individuals“, the op quoted, have a reason to complain. the facts WHY they cant, dont or wont join a guild asside, when the game is shit as hell in their experience, its just natural that they complain.

To be fair, some of us do want to join a guild, do want to have friends to play with that we can click with, but they're not always easy to find, it doesn't always work out, and those costs to transfer do add up. We are trying, though, it's just not always easy. And having to leave a guild that you find out doesn't give a damn about you after having invested time and emotional energy into it multiple times does get demoralizing.

[Niwes]

To be fair, some of us do want to join a guild, do want to have friends to play with that we can click with, but they're not always easy to find, it doesn't always work out, and those costs to transfer do add up. We are trying, though, it's just not always easy. And having to leave a guild that you find out doesn't give a damn about you after having invested time and emotional energy into it multiple times does get demoralizing.

thats my exp too. played half of my wow carreer (15 years uninterrupted) with guild, half without. later half was a few years with loose coupled b.net ppl, a few years pure pug. i personally are in a age and RL situation, i cant commit myself to fixed shedules, guilds have. so i definetelly understand how hard the pug side of wow is. its horrible.

my problem or statement here is: when the game is only good when being in a guild, but horrible without, is it really that evil when ppl, that play without guilds more and more shitty game, point at that?

i mean, nowhere on the xpac box, when you buy it, stands: „just good with guilds. dont buy it otherwise, it sucks.“

[Osmeric]

Sounds like we agree, i've tried a ton of mmos and none of them do raids properly outside of wow anymore. It's all the content outside of the raids that is bad and i want that to improve.

Or you could -- hear me out -- just not play any MMO at all.

[Fluxoz]

Anyone depressing enough to rutinely visit a news site for a game, while not playing said game, or more so than that, activly hating said game, is so deep into some tribal mindset that nothing will change their mind. Same is true for any game, there just isnt many other games as old as wow, with an active scene.

[Relapses]

But anyway, white knights are gonna white knight. Blizz can do no wrong (though the TANKING sub numbers for a straight decade beg to differ) and everything is peachy!

Congratulations on providing the single least interesting argument in the thread.

1.) You don't know what the fuck sub numbers are because Blizzard stopped reporting them 7 fucking years ago
2.) It wouldn't matter even if you did know because, get this -- Blizzard never released the reasons people quit the game to begin with
3.) Drawing a line between two quarters and saying "this is the patch that they added {x feature} and look at how many subs were lost!" is the lowest IQ take you can have
4.) The game would have died eons ago if some of what Blizzard is doing didn't work. You're free to have an opinion about the quality of these features but pretending like you know what's better for a game you don't even fucking play is the absolute peak of hypocrisy

Please get back to me when you can formulate an argument more compelling than "WoW's dying because reasons."

[Swnem]

Yes, there are some people around that are constantly pushing for the game to end, one way or another. Much like crack junkies that can't stop consuming by themselves.

I'm personally in a spot where i wouldn't play the game if not for my guild. I stopped during BfA, but we came back with re-adjusted goals. It's been working so far. I am enjoying the game cause of that and cause of the removal of AP infinite grind and titanforging RNG.
So, i can enjoy the game, even if it's not my favorite.
Sadly, my favorite doesnt get nearly enough content support (swtor) and my second favorite, FFXIV doesn't manage to atract the same people.

So, WoW soldiers on.

[Niwes]

Pretending that your "favorite take" is the norm is your problem. Just about every take I've seen from ex-players, including myself, has involved them not knowing their audience and trying to warp the game into something that appeals to a broad range of people. Casualizing the experience so ma and pa can play WoW too! Adding in farmville-esque systems to get the boomers involved! Making a game called WARcraft kid-friendly!

They don't know their audience and it has fled for just about every other game. The balkanization of the original WoW community that began after Wrath with many going to different games that appeal more to them, quitting completely, or staying and making the best out of it has been strong and undeniable.

The main issue I have: They're spending more money on inferior quality rather than less on superior. Gimmick gameplay systems like covenants, randomized loot drops for pvp, cross server group finders to trivialize content, all of these things took them quite a bit of money to make when they could've simply not done any of them and retained more players.

But anyway, white knights are gonna white knight. Blizz can do no wrong (though the TANKING sub numbers for a straight decade beg to differ) and everything is peachy!

- - - Updated - - -



You say this as if WoW Raids are particularly good anymore. Recycled mechanics and bad loot mechanics are the main feature today. The environments might be pretty and interesting to see but you can just queue LFR or take a shot on a game like GW2 which also has raids and has much much better quality content outside of them.

much much truth in this imo.

Blizz changed from „a dedicated target audience“ to „no traget audience at all, cause try to cater to EVERYONE“.

3 things about this:

1)
MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MAAAAANY „problems“ in game, in current design, in „toxic“ community and in wow general, comes SOLELY from that fact.

2)
thats imo a MAIN reason why some ppl are pissed. they committed themselfes to a game, when they were the dedicated target audience. and they invested a lot of time and effort. at some point, blizz decided to piss on that target audience and catered to everyone, which changed the game a lot. that their longterm loyal customer base, that committed themselfes to a totally another game/product, are pissed.... is well understandable. at least to me.

3)
the whole wow thing will not end well imo. its like they wanna cater to everyone and try to get everyones dollar, but makes no one happy. ofc, for a while them and Bobby get rich as fuck. but at some point the broad masses lost interest and the longterm loyal customer base had enough to be alienated and playing a game with memories of how it once was.

in short: Blizz is doing well, for the fast dollar. they make millions and billions with wow as a transport medium for smart cash grab systems like token. but longterm that cant survive imo, because the transport medium is a 16 years old game.

[Kallisto]

10 MMOs That Tried to Kill WoW And Failed:
https://www.gamersdecide.com/pc-game...wow-and-failed

1. Age of Conan
2. Warhammer Online
3. Lord of the Rings Online
4. Guild Wars 2
5. Elder Scrolls Online
6. Wildstar
7. Star Wars: The Old Republic
8. Tabula Rasa
9. Rift
10. Star Trek Online

Everytime these would come out - these people would create and advertise for the games(as if WoW took thier virginity and ran away). Now people are talking about Bobbys yatch. Same book - different cover.

I reliazed over the years - this is more about the game addiction or the lack of motivation to play the game - but the typical responds is emotional(not because they actually hate the game). The dopamin release in the brain is what makes you happy - but it demands more neutrally(this is the addiction part) - and it will eventually never be enough. So - you either start hating the game - or you are one of those hanging out in the Achievments board like a champ.

And the scapegoat come out in terms of subnumbers, a boat, some youtuber or some conspiracy(whatever people can portrait - so that they can distance themselfs). Very simple - it really doesn't require much tinkering.

The only one that actually talked about, went after wow at all was rift (We're not in Azeroth anymore). All the others tried their own thing with their fanbase being dicks trying to link it to wow.

[Relapses]

much much truth in this imo.

Blizz changed from „a dedicated target audience“ to „no traget audience at all, cause try to cater to EVERYONE“.

3 things about this:

1)
MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MAAAAANY „problems“ in game, in current design, in „toxic“ community and in wow general, comes SOLELY from that fact.

2)
thats imo a MAIN reason why some ppl are pissed. they committed themselfes to a game, when they were the dedicated target audience. and they invested a lot of time and effort. at some point, blizz decided to piss on that target audience and catered to everyone, which changed the game a lot. that their longterm loyal customer base, that committed themselfes to a totally another game/product, are pissed.... is well understandable. at least to me.

3)
the whole wow thing will not end well imo. its like they wanna cater to everyone and try to get everyones dollar, but makes no one happy. ofc, for a while them and Bobby get rich as fuck. but at some point the broad masses lost interest and the longterm loyal customer base had enough to be alienated and playing a game with memories of how it once was.

in short: Blizz is doing well, for the fast dollar. they make millions and billions with wow as a transport medium for smart cash grab systems like token. but longterm that cant survive imo, because the transport medium is a 16 years old game.

Here's an uncomfortable hypothetical: Blizzard changes nothing, continues to try to appease their "dedicated target market" (whatever the fuck that means) and the game dies eight years ago because all those dedicated players grew the fuck up and moved the fuck on with their lives. This is known as "going full WildStar." It was dumb as fuck when WildStar was released, it's still dumb as fuck now.

[Frozenbro]

Here's an uncomfortable hypothetical: Blizzard changes nothing, continues to try to appease their "dedicated target market" (whatever the fuck that means) and the game dies eight years ago because all those dedicated players grew the fuck up and moved the fuck on with their lives. This is known as "going full WildStar." It was dumb as fuck when WildStar was released, it's still dumb as fuck now.

That supposed dedicated target market or audience can still find their content in mythic raiding, but would you look at that, mythic raiding is too much for them so right now they dont even know what they want, its actually hilarious when you read them complaining.

[Relapses]

That supposed dedicated target market or audience can still find their content in mythic raiding, but would you look at that, mythic raiding is too much for them so right now they dont even know what they want, its actually hilarious when you read them complaining.

Apparently it's 100% reasonable to expect a video game to be appealing to 100% of its audience for the entirety of its existence.

[rhorle]

that said, i indeed somewhat wanna see Blizz fail. fail with this direction and the „press the last $ out of wow“ route they are more and more going. i wanna see THAT fail, wanna see all that cost effective development and smart cash grab supporting game design fail, so Blizz have to start going a different route (which they just do when actual route profitwise not works out).

I think the word you are looking for is you want them to get better. Failing won't bring about anything you claim to want except basically shutting down WoW for good.

[cparle87]

Well, you see, for these players it's just as easy as Blizzard re-releasing {insert favorite expansion here} and all of the game's current issues will vanish. The fact that Blizzard doesn't just re-release previously successful expansions based entirely on an arbitrary opinion of one single players' experience is the real reason WoW is failing. If Blizzard really wanted the game to be successful, they'd just allow millions of versions of it to exist so that every unique player can get the exact experience they desire from it.

There was a blue post way back, maybe vanilla or BC, that said something to the tune of they could provide everyone with a magical hat that gave them the perfect gaming experience tuned just to them, and people would complain about the color of the hat. Same reason I was against vanilla. "It's not the REAL AV cause it uses X patch, they lied to us." "It's not the REAL vanilla cause we began with the 1.12 talents, they lied to us." So on.

[HansOlo]

I think the word you are looking for is you want them to get better. Failing won't bring about anything you claim to want except basically shutting down WoW for good.

This is more like "You don't make me happy anylonger - so I want you to suffer" syndrome.