View Poll Results: Could a soft flex mechanic be added to Mythic raids.

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  • Yes

    22 23.40%
  • No

    72 76.60%
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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    I have to concur with the others.
    Blaa blaa blaa blaaa....

    Your idea is stupid and you're so butthurt about people not agreeing you're covering your ears screaming nonsense bro....
    If you don't even play the game, why are you here giving suggestions about it? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about and the game dont want your input because you can't relate because you are not playing the game as everyone else....2 expos ago dont matter, at all.
    Just because you don't like the comparison doesn't make it any less true. It would always be one setting per boss being easier, it could never be equal and it would diminish the achievement just as it did with 10/25 man world first, which is in the actual time area you DID play the game, which is quite ironic lol.

    Because just as with any meta, the community sets the expectations, when its declared "x" boss is easier on "x" number of players giving your flex model.
    Everyone and their mama will do just that and people who would otherwise not be benched, will end up being benched, or even worse, they can't raid at all now because they dont have the extra player, leaving a whole guild to suffer, only to benefit someone else, be it you or whoever you think would benefit from your horrible idea?
    With the current system, its always equal and that brings me back to go back to heroic where you can flex scale.

    Its a horrible shitty idea that will never be implemented and again, thank fuck for that and blizzard not listening to someone not even playing their game... What a joke post lol.
    Good for you. Well you can say blah blah blah, meanwhile you're opening your threads calling others stupid. So good for you, real mature and constructive.

    I don't play the game anymore, no, so why do you fucking think I'm here giving suggestions, use your head. I love the game, and I think its inaccessible at the top level, why the fuck else. If you don't want my input, then go away, why are you here talking to me then.

    It does make it less true, you cannot even be serious, the difference between balancing a raid with 10/25 players in mind is completely different from 19/20/21.

    Listen, you're calling me stupid, saying its a horrible shitty idea and calling the post a joke, why don't you just jog on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    glad that we agree on this topic i raided the whole of mop and nothing was more annoying that 25 man guilds collapsing because 10 was so much easier in more ways than just terms of difficulty if they cant even balance 2 difficulties letting us go with 1 man less or more for mythic would end up a balancing nightmare
    Yeah well as I said to another poster here, I remember hagara 10 man heroic in dragon soul was a great example of 10/25 being vastly different. You had to position basically perfectly to get the lightning to arc on 10 man, like within 1 yard, on 25 man everyone just fucking threw themselves in a rough circle hahahaha.

    I remember in the end we actually just ended up cheesing the mechanic by having me 'blood DK tank' who was max ilvl geared to the teeth, just popping defensive and walking straight across the room through all the damage, because making it arc was so buggy, it was easier just to target heal me and have me tank all the damage for a little longer but get a guaranteed result.

    And that's where this idea stems. Im not saying flex would work, I'm saying that if Blizzard changed their internal rulessets when designing bosses slightly, to make sure there wouldn't be something that would obviously break on 21/19. Simple example.

    You MUST have equal players on left side and right side of room, or you instantly wipe. You couldn't do that obviously unless you had 10/10. So avoid mechanics like that. Most other things afaik would work still, eg, 4 soaks, 5 soaks, whatever it is, 1 player wouldn't really affect that. It would be a bit harder with 19 sure, but if you got a 5% buff or 5% debuff for the extra player, it would probably work. They could always disable it for world first too so.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Oh I don't doubt it would affect balance, I have stated many times it would, certainly, but enough to affect the competitiveness in a meaningful way, which is ultimately what matters, no, not in my opinion. Why don't we balance the raids around Limit/Echo/Method in that case?

    I mean I don't agree as I said, WoW's community is getting old now and you say that mythic is rather stagnant, have you considered that's because the prospect of mythic raiding isn't reasonable to such a large amount of players that they simply cannot commit, therefore you get left with the same pool of hardcore players?

    I feel I'm in this pool. I love Mythic, I love logging, I love the competitive nature, but I'm a game dev running a company and I don't have a ton of time, I can figure out my schedule such that I can play 9/10 raids or more, but that's not good enough because that 1/10 times, Im screwing 19 people and I'm not willing to do that. Im sure there are many adults in this boat, as I said, WoW's average player is getting older than you think at this stage, and this is becoming more of a problem for WoW. Back in TBC/WOTLK, many of us were in our early teens to early adulthood, a lot of those same players still pick up every WoW expansion and perhaps want to challenge themselves in mythic raiding, but these people are now well into adulthood/perhaps even running families and complex jobs. I personally think Mythic has to evolve to fix that issue.

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    I don't agree it would become mandatory, most guilds play for fun/challenge more than pure competitiveness. I agree its considered a hard mode, but right now there is flat out zero flexibility, and that is bad game design.

    You cant make a comparison to god of war, its a single player game, you don't affect others schedules and its a personal choice you make to play, you play on your own time etc.

    Being able to challenge yourself in the hardest raid circumstances shouldn't mean that if you have to skip a raid night for irl stuff, that you're screwing 19 other people.

    I understand you're afraid it would ruin that, but people are afraid of change, sometimes we have to understand others POV's and admit it can be better. I love Mythic raiding too, but I don't think its close to perfect, I among many just cant commit to a 100% schedule anymore, I wish there was a flex element to cover my ass. And I'm sure many other older players do too.
    They do tune for world first guilds(or at least top10-20). Then they nerf them for the rest of us.

    Zero flexibility is not inherently bad game design. Adding that flexibility would compromise their ability to tune fights well (as well as they are currently), and would introduce issues of needing to bench people for progress kills so you can play with 19(or 18) people instead of 20/21/22. And then there would be fights that get significantly easier with 21 or 22 players, so you'd be right back to complaining that they don't cater to your 19man guild.

    Healthy guilds already have rosters that allow for people to miss raids every now and then. Designing around dying guilds with small rosters doesn't solve anything, you just move the goalpost for what is considered a dying/struggling guild.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Good for you. Well you can say blah blah blah, meanwhile you're opening your threads calling others stupid. So good for you, real mature and constructive.

    I don't play the game anymore, no, so why do you fucking think I'm here giving suggestions, use your head. I love the game, and I think its inaccessible at the top level, why the fuck else. If you don't want my input, then go away, why are you here talking to me then.

    It does make it less true, you cannot even be serious, the difference between balancing a raid with 10/25 players in mind is completely different from 19/20/21.


    Listen, you're calling me stupid, saying its a horrible shitty idea and calling the post a joke, why don't you just jog on.

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    Yeah well as I said to another poster here, I remember hagara 10 man heroic in dragon soul was a great example of 10/25 being vastly different. You had to position basically perfectly to get the lightning to arc on 10 man, like within 1 yard, on 25 man everyone just fucking threw themselves in a rough circle hahahaha.

    I remember in the end we actually just ended up cheesing the mechanic by having me 'blood DK tank' who was max ilvl geared to the teeth, just popping defensive and walking straight across the room through all the damage, because making it arc was so buggy, it was easier just to target heal me and have me tank all the damage for a little longer but get a guaranteed result.

    And that's where this idea stems. Im not saying flex would work, I'm saying that if Blizzard changed their internal rulessets when designing bosses slightly, to make sure there wouldn't be something that would obviously break on 21/19. Simple example.

    You MUST have equal players on left side and right side of room, or you instantly wipe. You couldn't do that obviously unless you had 10/10. So avoid mechanics like that. Most other things afaik would work still, eg, 4 soaks, 5 soaks, whatever it is, 1 player wouldn't really affect that. It would be a bit harder with 19 sure, but if you got a 5% buff or 5% debuff for the extra player, it would probably work. They could always disable it for world first too so.
    Yes, it's different, but balancing it for 19/20/21 is still significantly harder than just 20. Do 19 people get -1 debuff? Do 21 get +1? Do you leave the number the same, making 21 easier than the other options? What role are you assuming gets added or removed? What if people add/remove a different role instead?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Mods please please please can we get laughing emojis!!!

    - Joins thread calls me 'very selfish'. Good start.

    - Proceeds to show they haven't read any of the thread, because I've said multiple times that I am no longer raiding, and haven't been for 2 expansions.

    Further makes silly comparisons, because the whole argument bases itself around the though process that you probably wouldn't upset balance with 19/21 players based upon a 20 man raid design. And thinks its a fair comparison with 10 man raiding vs 25 man, which is vastly different numbers wise, ontop of the fact blizzard wasn't balancing fights upon a singular figure back then.

    wtf do you mean I will benefit! This argument you're making is just so full of it, I don't even play right now! Why would you be forced to bench someone! Lets just say that you can kill a fight with 19, but not 20. Ok? So you kill it this week, next week you can kill it with 20/21 with better gear and bring a larger % of the overall raid team, the end result is that more players can still consistently play? Whats the difference between this and maintaining a 5 man bench of which all 5 have to sit there for 3 hours multiple times a week and get very little raid time, or you getting replaced with a bench player who has a better class for an encounter? You haven't thought this out have you. Either way people miss out.

    Hmmmm further proving you cant read posts. But its okay, nobody has to take you serious, feel free to drop the /thread like you dropped some bombshell, shame you dropped it on your own thread though
    They were absolutely trying to balance 10 and 25 in Cata/MoP. They just failed because there are inherent differences between the 2 that you can't just math your way out of(even assuming Blizzard was any good at math)
    Voidshuffle
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  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Before you read only the title and respond, hear me out.

    Examples.

    Smallest case. A small flex buff for 19-21 players. Why, to allow either 1 player who would otherwise have to sit out on the bench but still be available/commit their 3 hour or so window to play. To allow 1 player to not turn up when they cant, or even, 2 players to not turn up, allowing 2 bench players to fill in.

    All the way up to a softer flex such as 18-22. Same thing as above, increase those figures by 1.

    I wouldn't say 17-23 is viable.

    Mythic raiding is extremely restrictive, and it should be to a degree, because its the hardest difficulty and its supposed to be competitive to a degree, but competitiveness shouldn't make something inaccessible. How many of you guys spend thousands of real dollars on WoW tokens to clear out auction houses of BoE's, or raid 12 hour days 7 days a week until you can clear. Very few, very few mythic raiders actually see it as a true competition that they have to win. The vast majority just want to achieve as good results as they can, under the criteria they set. Eg, 2-3 nights per week 3 hours a night.

    Secondly, this mechanic could always be disabled temporarily to allow the true hardcore players to avoid it. For example, for the first few weeks, until world first is achieved, it could be disabled. Or perhaps realm first?

    The truth is, I appreciate that using this system, there will be guilds that figure out that boss 7 in raid X is easier with 22 players, or 18 players, and they will use that to their advantage, and I know Blizzard has an easier time balancing fights knowing that 20 players are involved, and that does water down that aspect a bit, but the question really is, is it worth it to achieve a mode that is significantly less restrictive for players.

    The ability to skip a night without the guild/pressure that you're screwing 19 others over. The ability to maintain a true bench without screwing the bench players, the ability to recruit significantly easier, knowing you can provide better guarantees to your players/bench to actually be able to regularly raid.


    I feel like this is something worth exploring. So many mythic guilds are dying or going on hiatus, I've recruited a lot before myself, been officer etc, and it really is difficult to maintain a regular 20 man roster plus bench players. Its a pretty extreme commitment as far as games go. I just wish it was a little looser around the collar.

    Do you honestly think,

    a) it could work in a balanced way.
    b) would you want that tradeoff if so.
    I don't believe that changing the number of players is the correct solution to the problem. Mythic is tuned around it being a static number and having a flex group size will make it so that guilds have to try to find the ideal number for each fight. Instead i think a better solution would be if blizzard just relaxed several of the other restrictions on mythic either at the start of each tier or after the first 10-20 guilds clear mythic. IMO there is no reason for mythic to have the old lockout system where you are stuck to 1 lockout regardless if you kill a boss or not if you enter partway through a raid. Instead it should be changed to the normal / heroic system where each player is locked to the bosses that they have killed. This will in turn allow players to then PUG mythic raids and kill more than a handful of bosses in groups. Speaking of which, another change I would like to see is the cross realm mythic restriction being eliminated completely. Again outside of the first 10-20 guilds clearing the raid, I really dont see a reason to hold the restriction until Hall of Fame fills up (instead restrict Hall of Fame to 100% guild groups).

    With these 2 changes, I think your initial problem you outlined would be fixed. If you have a tight 20 man roster in your guild and someone misses you would be able to pug more people into the group. Granted these people might not be the best players, however with not being locked into a raid lockout for jumping into a later boss it might incentivize more people to sign up to late groups. Personally I know it would affect me since whenever I Pug mythic runs I typically look for fresh runs unless I'm chasing a specific item.

  4. #104
    Blizzard has decided that Mythic should be "cutting-edge content" and tunes the mythic raids for 20 people.

    It will create more problems that it will solve. If Blizzard makes it too easy then content will be cleared to fast. If Blizzard doesn't make it easier then guilds will have to have a big enough roster to do a 22-man when the boss requires it and and when the boss will be easiest with only 18 in the raid then even more people have to sit out a boss.

    But I do agree with those that argue for cross-realm mythic from the start of a tier = cross-realm guilds. As that will make it easier for guilds to find people and people to find guilds, but that will cut down on Blizzard's earnings from realm transfers, so that is problematic as well.

  5. #105
    Warchief vsb's Avatar
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    Yes, it could be changed that way. This idea is obvious and needed, it has no drawbacks, so it probably will be implemented in the future. WoW is seriously understaffed atm, so probably not in this expansion, but around 10.1 - 10.2 sounds like a good estimate.
    Last edited by vsb; 2021-04-24 at 07:25 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    ...
    I really think your thoughts are genuine, but you just have no idea how it works in reality. If you think that you can raid a 19man raid with 21man player pool, you are detached from reality. A mythic raiding guild will at least have 24 people, like 26 would be ideal.

    And the benching part, that is not how it works. Everyone raids every week, unless you are at point when extending makes sense. If a person is benched the entire progress - why is he in the guild? Either you want to play with him or not.

    All this balancing micromanagement is crap too. Let this one game mode be competitive. Casual guilds/players have all the game to play, and can even raid mythic, even if they have to pug.
    And whats next, in 2 years, people want 18-22, then 17-23. There will always be guilds that are 1 person short. There are even guilds that cant do normal because they are only 9 people.

    "Thats what I'm saying perhaps flex might work for. And like people here are going off their fucking heads at me calling me ignorant, selfish, all the other bullshit arguments. Im not even saying flex will work, I'm not a Blizzard dev, I've not balanced fights, but logically if you balance something with 20 players in mind, then add or remove 1 player, and compensate that with a small nerf/buff to the raid, we're talking a few %, mechanics can remain the same, and the encounter will remain balanced number wise. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's why we're on a forum no? To discuss that stuff."

    It is just a few %, are you joking? That is all mythic raiding is about, tuning. Mythic is only hard because of tuning. And people are discussing it. People who actually are mythic raiders, because from what your are saying, I can hardly believe that you are one.

    "thousands of IRL $$$ on the AH to get a competitive edge"

    having 19 or 21 people in the raid will undoubtedly have an bigger impact on the difficulty than buying BoEs for millions of gold.


    Just by statistics. You'd increase participation by guilds that are 1 person short, what would happen to guilds that are 2 persons short? just FUCKEM? I know why you keep referring to the 19-21 example. Because it seems minor. But to actually be able to raid with all the people in the raid every time, you'd need at least a17-23flex size, to always have 17 people, and not have more than 23
    Last edited by Nite92; 2021-04-25 at 06:11 AM.

  7. #107
    Heroic shouldn't exist if this is implemented

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Good for you. Well you can say blah blah blah, meanwhile you're opening your threads calling others stupid. So good for you, real mature and constructive.

    I don't play the game anymore, no, so why do you fucking think I'm here giving suggestions, use your head. I love the game, and I think its inaccessible at the top level, why the fuck else. If you don't want my input, then go away, why are you here talking to me then.

    It does make it less true, you cannot even be serious, the difference between balancing a raid with 10/25 players in mind is completely different from 19/20/21.
    Listen, you're calling me stupid, saying its a horrible shitty idea and calling the post a joke, why don't you just jog on.
    .
    Why is it so hard to accept its a shitty idea? It solves literally nothing.
    For every guild you think you're saving, you're also creating a problem for the next.
    So yeh, great, you solved one problem by creating another...But wait, there's more, you also affect the whole raiding community for a zero sum proposition....
    Why on earth would you think this would be a good idea?
    Its exactly the same because its creates the exact same issues, doesn't matter if its 10/25 or 19/20/21.....

    If you loved the game, you would play it, even at a casual level, you certainly have time to be on here talking?

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    snip
    I m also very curious to know what kind of content he does

  10. #110
    I voted no. I really like the idea, and some version of it could be implemented (such as introducing after the HoF closes), but I think it creates more problems that it solves

  11. #111
    Then meta will dictate 18 people instead of 20 for raid and you're back to square one.

  12. #112
    Just stop with these threads. Mythic is 20 players. Get over it.

  13. #113
    Absolutely not. Stupid idea that everyone is, rightfully, shooting down.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by marcusblood View Post
    Just stop with these threads. Mythic is 20 players. Get over it.
    Sorry we're on a forum, here to discuss whether or not something could and should be changed. If you feel that way, good for you. I think there's a case to be made for both sides. You don't have to read this thread or post if you arent interested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    Absolutely not. Stupid idea that everyone is, rightfully, shooting down.
    Mmmm I mean its fine to disagree but to call it stupid....

    Blizzard themselves have admitted there's an accessibility problem with Mythic, I guess they're stupid too then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrys View Post
    I voted no. I really like the idea, and some version of it could be implemented (such as introducing after the HoF closes), but I think it creates more problems that it solves
    Fair enough, maybe something could be iterated on in the future, who knows

  15. #115
    If there is one thing in this world that holds true is that if more then 3 people (let alone 75%) of people on mmoc agree that something is a dumb idea... it's an EXTREMELY dumb idea.

    This website can't agree on basically anything cuz "my opinion is fact and yours is dumb" x 100000 opinions. So good luck op.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by marcusblood View Post
    Just stop with these threads. Mythic is 20 players. Get over it.
    Like when 25m honks got over watching their raid size die outside the top 100 in Cata and MoP? I seem to remember them shaking their rattle for 3 years until daddy Ion came to the rescue and got rid of all those evil 10m raiders.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    Like when 25m honks got over watching their raid size die outside the top 100 in Cata and MoP? I seem to remember them shaking their rattle for 3 years until daddy Ion came to the rescue and got rid of all those evil 10m raiders.
    Heck ya! Best decision ever. The 10m baddies have proven since 2014 that they were the inferior raiders.

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