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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Twen View Post
    I've been thinking I would like to do dungeons with people who have anxiety to give them a safe environment to build up their courage, but I don't know how to reach them since they are not in the finder because they're uncomfortable about group content. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Glad to hear you've started to get over it, though.
    I really enjoy the trust system, I hope they can expand upon it and make it available for all instances. It's a great tool to practice with until you feel comfortable to go into real groups. They're definitely slower than most real groups but that's good in my opinion, you should be encouraged to play with other people.

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I really enjoy the trust system, I hope they can expand upon it and make it available for all instances. It's a great tool to practice with until you feel comfortable to go into real groups. They're definitely slower than most real groups but that's good in my opinion, you should be encouraged to play with other people.
    It is a nice addition but I'm not digging the whole "leveling them up." I didn't have to level trusts in FFXI, they were just... my level.

    For some, you'll level them mostly while you're leveling up but that banks on you doing repeat dungeons with them. I prefer groups with real people as they're more efficient but it's nice to have them for when you want or need to play alone.

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    It is a nice addition but I'm not digging the whole "leveling them up." I didn't have to level trusts in FFXI, they were just... my level.

    For some, you'll level them mostly while you're leveling up but that banks on you doing repeat dungeons with them. I prefer groups with real people as they're more efficient but it's nice to have them for when you want or need to play alone.
    The first time you encounter any new story dungeon, the Trust members are appropriately leveled, which is great because then you can progress immediately to the dungeon without a queue time.

    After that you have to level them up, which is somewhat annoying, but the Trust system is I guess how they intended to allow people to grind out levels alternatively to the Deep Dungeons they had released previously.

    It's a great system, I just wish they leveled up faster, or as a whole instead of each member at a time. I think the pros outweigh the cons, though, by far.

  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The first time you encounter any new story dungeon, the Trust members are appropriately leveled, which is great because then you can progress immediately to the dungeon without a queue time.

    After that you have to level them up, which is somewhat annoying, but the Trust system is I guess how they intended to allow people to grind out levels alternatively to the Deep Dungeons they had released previously.

    It's a great system, I just wish they leveled up faster, or as a whole instead of each member at a time. I think the pros outweigh the cons, though, by far.
    Yeah, I'd rather have them as-is than not at all. MMO gaming isn't the same as a dad like it was when I was a single guy. "Not now, i'm playing a game" isn't something I tell my kids. But trusts will wait for me!

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    But they are still prohibited. But because you have low chance to get caught breaking the rules it is worth it? And should be encouraged?
    Functionally, you have no chance of being caught if you literally don’t bring it up. And even then, they only really care if you’re using it as a tool for harassment. I mean, go watch YP talk about it. It’s pretty obvious what their de facto stance is, even if they cannot write it down de jure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    "Not now, i'm playing a game" isn't something I tell my kids.
    I feel that one, as a fellow dad. I wish more followed suit.

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by Twen View Post
    I've been thinking I would like to do dungeons with people who have anxiety to give them a safe environment to build up their courage, but I don't know how to reach them since they are not in the finder because they're uncomfortable about group content. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Glad to hear you've started to get over it, though.
    I don't know how you'd reach them either, unfortunately. A static maybe? (Those are like WoW communities, right?) This is just as DPS too, at this point I refuse to try tanking or healing in a PUG. I used to get upset that most of the tanks I encountered in WoW's LFD were jerks, but after having tried to tank myself I think that's the personality you have to have to do it. While I haven't encountered it yet, I have heard of healers in FFXIV using Rescue to yank tanks along if they're moving too slowly. Having had this happen to me in WoW with a priest using Leap of Faith, I'm just not going to put up with that kind of behavior. Likewise, the 'go go go' tanks are why I quit attempting to heal in WoW too. Ideally, I'd find a good FC with people who don't mind going at a more casual pace while I get used to the roles and the content.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    I don't know how you'd reach them either, unfortunately. A static maybe? (Those are like WoW communities, right?) This is just as DPS too, at this point I refuse to try tanking or healing in a PUG. I used to get upset that most of the tanks I encountered in WoW's LFD were jerks, but after having tried to tank myself I think that's the personality you have to have to do it. While I haven't encountered it yet, I have heard of healers in FFXIV using Rescue to yank tanks along if they're moving too slowly. Having had this happen to me in WoW with a priest using Leap of Faith, I'm just not going to put up with that kind of behavior. Likewise, the 'go go go' tanks are why I quit attempting to heal in WoW too. Ideally, I'd find a good FC with people who don't mind going at a more casual pace while I get used to the roles and the content.
    The XIV community will straight up tell you that you're a bad tank if you don't wall to wall pull with sprint, no stops.

    That's not hyperbole, or some interpretation. That's the conversation that happens nightly in NN with veterans talking to new players.

    It's true that fast wall to wall pulls are nice and all, but yeah.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The XIV community will straight up tell you that you're a bad tank if you don't wall to wall pull with sprint, no stops.

    That's not hyperbole, or some interpretation. That's the conversation that happens nightly in NN with veterans talking to new players.

    It's true that fast wall to wall pulls are nice and all, but yeah.
    Weird, that never happened to me. I've just finished leveling warrior from 1 to 80 exclusively through dungeons, probably hundreds of dungeons and the only thing I've seen (on multiple occasions) are healers saying "you can pull more" indicating that they're comfortable with it.

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Weird, that never happened to me. I've just finished leveling warrior from 1 to 80 exclusively through dungeons, probably hundreds of dungeons and the only thing I've seen (on multiple occasions) are healers saying "you can pull more" indicating that they're comfortable with it.
    I don't know why this is something people feel like they can/should try arguing.

    Every XIV forum on the internet will tell you this.

    Any group in game - including Novice Network - will tell you this.

    Healers will Rescue you into more packs. (I don't hate it personally, because it does make things faster, but yeah people who are already nervous about tanking will be thrown for a loop.)

    People will "kindly" inform you that "it's ok to pull more" and you know what that really translates to.

    It's not something strange, or rare, or up for debate. It's the community standard for dungeon tanking. I don't know why people always pop up and try declaring otherwise.

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I don't know why this is something people feel like they can/should try arguing.

    Every XIV forum on the internet will tell you this.

    Any group in game - including Novice Network - will tell you this.

    Healers will Rescue you into more packs. (I don't hate it personally, because it does make things faster, but yeah people who are already nervous about tanking will be thrown for a loop.)

    People will "kindly" inform you that "it's ok to pull more" and you know what that really translates to.

    It's not something strange, or rare, or up for debate. It's the community standard for dungeon tanking. I don't know why people always pop up and try declaring otherwise.
    We've all played the game, why bother lying about it?

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by Thestrawman View Post
    We've all played the game, why bother lying about it?
    That's what I keep wondering every time someone claims it's not a common thing, actually.

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    That's what I keep wondering every time someone claims it's not a common thing, actually.
    So I'm sure since it's such a common thing that happens you have proof right?

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I don't know why this is something people feel like they can/should try arguing.

    Every XIV forum on the internet will tell you this.

    Any group in game - including Novice Network - will tell you this.

    Healers will Rescue you into more packs. (I don't hate it personally, because it does make things faster, but yeah people who are already nervous about tanking will be thrown for a loop.)

    People will "kindly" inform you that "it's ok to pull more" and you know what that really translates to.

    It's not something strange, or rare, or up for debate. It's the community standard for dungeon tanking. I don't know why people always pop up and try declaring otherwise.
    I'm not arguing, I'm just saying that in my five years of playing this game I've never personally seen it or experienced it. That's why I found it weird, I purposefully dungeon levelled a job from 1 to 80 because I wanted to learn to tank every single dungeon in the game. I have probably just been incredibly lucky when nobody ever told me that I was a bad tank for not living up to their standards.

  14. #554
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The XIV community will straight up tell you that you're a bad tank if you don't wall to wall pull with sprint, no stops.
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Weird, that never happened to me..
    I usually try to do wall to wall pulls. If you're wearing the best tomestone gear you can equip, then you can almost always do it (beware tanking Bardaam's Mettle while wearing HW tomestone gear as that is when you start receiving a lot more damage, but it is still doable). However, one time I got Dohn Mheg as Warrior but didn't have the last set of Stormblood tomestone gear equipped (I forgot why I wasn't wearing it, I think I did have it but maybe it was on my retainer? Dunno. I don't think I was still wearing the HW gear, though. If was I'm pretty sure I would've died instantly to just one trash pack). I couldn't pull more than one or two packs at a time, even when using tank CDs. And yet people still ran ahead to pull more packs. After the second wipe I got booted having never gotten to the first boss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    People will "kindly" inform you that "it's ok to pull more" and you know what that really translates to.
    Yeah. The FFXIV community is very passive aggressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I have probably just been incredibly lucky when nobody ever told me that I was a bad tank for not living up to their standards.
    Probably because unless you screwed up like I did and forgot to wear the latest tomestone gear, you can wall to wall pull no problem and will hardly need to pop your tank CDs.

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  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Probably because unless you screwed up like I did and forgot to wear the latest tomestone gear, you can wall to wall pull no problem and will hardly need to pop your tank CDs.
    Yeah but that's just it. I rarely wall pulled unless the healer told me I could and that happened like once every 20th dungeon. I only wore gear I got from the dungeons, no tomestone gear until I got to lvl70 where I had a set lying around.

    I'm beginning to wonder if it could be a cultural thing. I'm playing on a EU server, perhaps it's more common on US ones or I'm simply incredibly fortunate.
    Last edited by Echo of Soul; 2021-07-02 at 05:25 AM.

  16. #556
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    Man, the hyperbole is strong on both sides of this whole argument.

  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Yeah. The FFXIV community is very passive aggressive.
    In-game, very passive aggressive. In most forums, flat-out aggressive and even more than WoW players for some reason. Then I see forum posts where people claim it doesn't happen. Or they'll claim they've played for years and never seen something and I just have a hard time taking them seriously. While I'm not accusing anyone specific of anything, the whole "I've played for years (or since the beginning)" comment gets tossed around often and many of those people have little "tells" that contradict that claim. Though I greatly enjoy the game, it's one of my biggest gripes.

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Weird, that never happened to me. I've just finished leveling warrior from 1 to 80 exclusively through dungeons, probably hundreds of dungeons and the only thing I've seen (on multiple occasions) are healers saying "you can pull more" indicating that they're comfortable with it.
    Bovine was throwing a little hyperbole out, but he's not wrong. You being told "you can pull more" and in your own words "on multiple occasions" is basically them saying you're a bad tank politely or passive aggressively depending on the context. Catastrophicly/worst tank ever? No hardly. Unreasonably cautious and slow? Yes, which in effect is sub-optimal, and thus bad. I could go on a huge deep dive into why pulling small packs is bad, but I'll spare you unless you want to know.

    To hit the flip side, I've been tanking since 2.0. I've never had anyone tell me to pull more. I've also never had anyone tell me to pull less. I've also never had a healer rescue me into mob packs. The reason for this is because I'm always doing my role as best I can, so no one needs to overstep to correct me. That's not to say I haven't made mistakes or we haven't wiped due to my pulls. It's definitely happened. I just apologize for misreading the room and move on. Most of the time others will pipe up saying it was their mistake, and not mine. Sometimes truthfully, sometimes not (i.e. the healer apologized one time for letting us wipe, and I'm like on the side, homie this isn't your fault that you and I are #1 and #2 on DPS and the pull lasted 2 minutes before we died and only 2 mobs died).
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2021-07-02 at 01:48 PM.

  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Bovine was throwing a little hyperbole out, but he's not wrong. You being told "you can pull more" and in your own words "on multiple occasions" is basically them saying you're a bad tank politely or passive aggressively depending on the context. Catastrophicly/worst tank ever? No hardly. Unreasonably cautious and slow? Yes, which in effect is sub-optimal, and thus bad. I could go on a huge deep dive into why pulling small packs is bad, but I'll spare you unless you want to know.

    To hit the flip side, I've been tanking since 2.0. I've never had anyone tell me to pull more. I've also never had anyone tell me to pull less. I've also never had a healer rescue me into mob packs. The reason for this is because I'm always doing my role as best I can, so no one needs to overstep to correct me. That's not to say I haven't made mistakes or we haven't wiped due to my pulls. It's definitely happened. I just apologize for misreading the room and move on. Most of the time others will pipe up saying it was their mistake, and not mine. Sometimes truthfully, sometimes not (i.e. the healer apologized one time for letting us wipe, and I'm like on the side, homie this isn't your fault that you and I are #1 and #2 on DPS and the pull lasted 2 minutes before we died and only 2 mobs died).
    Yeah that's more or less the same experience that I've had. Nobody has been unpleasant to deal with during my time in learning to tank. If someone says to me "you can pull more" I don't take that as a personal attack, more like "ok, good to know". If I didn't feel comfortable pulling more because I was learning it was always fine.
    I did get a rescue once, I got reminded of it now that you mention it. At first I was like "what the hell? that was weird, was I standing in something?". It wasn't until after the dungeon that I realized that the healer wanted me to keep moving and it wasn't until much later that I realized that he could've been on console and that was his way of saying "you can pull more".

    I don't think that either of these things are toxic or saying that I'm bad, it's just communicating your preference. Like if I'm being intimite with my partner and she says "you can do this/that" I don't take that as an attack on my libido
    The healer/tank relationship is a symbiosis and everyone you group up with is different. It takes a while to learn how low you should set the bar as a default, the sprout icon is a great indicator there but otherwise you'll have to learn as you go.
    As long as you try to communicate in a calm and polite manner I've found that everything will work itself out just fine in most cases. It's only when you encounter someone who's in a fight or flight mode that trying to be calm and polite can have a reverse effect but I haven't encountered such people in this game yet, most of them are very relaxed.

  20. #560
    This isnt an argument. This is anecdotal. Some people wall to wall pull, some people dont. The absolute horror! As your whm healer, i just wanna know where you stop and i can holy. Just tell me and we're good.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-07-02 at 02:36 PM.

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