1. #1101
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    WoW lets you have multiple characters with ease, each of which is on a separate lockout. For sure, you can't help with the same character, but you probably have several you can use. It would be like if coffers were per-class rather than per-character in XIV.

    Coffers are bad because they directly and intentionally discourage players from helping others, or from seeking help from others. As I already said, that's a cardinal sin in MMO design. MMOs are meant to guide players into working with and playing with other players, else you might as well play some other kind of game.

    Loot limitations were designed as a way of forcefully extending the life of content so that players don't get tired of it too quickly, but this is *directly* antithetical to the project director's own words, where he *wants* people to feel like they can take breaks without being out anything.

    Coffers need to go, if for no other reason than they are completely incongruous with Yoshida's stated design goals for the game.
    You can also have multiple characters in FF, it front-ends the pain with a longer campaign, but gearing multiple chars in WoW and keeping them geared and ready is painful. Even if they didn't have coffers you'd still be loot-locked until they unlock loot, that's a design choice so people don't hard-spam content week 1 until burnout.

  2. #1102
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatBlast View Post
    You can also have multiple characters in FF, it front-ends the pain with a longer campaign, but gearing multiple chars in WoW and keeping them geared and ready is painful. Even if they didn't have coffers you'd still be loot-locked until they unlock loot, that's a design choice so people don't hard-spam content week 1 until burnout.
    Gearing alts in WOW is nowhere near as painful as people claim, if your goal is having a normal raid ready alt. If you want multiple mains to raid mythic then it will be painful. Right now I can start a new toon and have it in mostly 226 gear in less then a week.

  3. #1103
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmatrix View Post
    Gearing alts in WOW is nowhere near as painful as people claim, if your goal is having a normal raid ready alt. If you want multiple mains to raid mythic then it will be painful. Right now I can start a new toon and have it in mostly 226 gear in less then a week.
    Savage is mythic equivalent, so if you are gearing alts to be raid-ready in the similar lockouts then you have to compare it like-for-like, this would be like being able to non-stop farm mythic until everyone had BiS with no lockouts, or (much like top guilds do) having prepped alts.

  4. #1104
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatBlast View Post
    Savage is mythic equivalent, so if you are gearing alts to be raid-ready in the similar lockouts then you have to compare it like-for-like, this would be like being able to non-stop farm mythic until everyone had BiS with no lockouts, or (much like top guilds do) having prepped alts.
    Savage is definitely *not* Mythic equivalent. It's far, far more generous on tuning than Mythic WoW is. Ultimates are the analogue for WoW Mythic raids.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HeatBlast View Post
    You can also have multiple characters in FF, it front-ends the pain with a longer campaign, but gearing multiple chars in WoW and keeping them geared and ready is painful. Even if they didn't have coffers you'd still be loot-locked until they unlock loot, that's a design choice so people don't hard-spam content week 1 until burnout.
    I'm actually leveling a toon on Marilith now, coming back after a few months off. Wanted a nice, chill grindy game I could play when I'm not in the mood for more involving games.

    It's hard to overstate just *how* front-loaded that process is. Even skipping most cutscenes, I'm still probably looking at 15-20 hours if I beelined right to Abyssos on only one class, much less if I'm trying to enjoy the leveling process. Whereas in WoW, it might be 20-30 hours *total* to go from 1-80 in Classic WotLK (enjoying the process, not beelining using RestedXP or whatever the cool kids use these days, and not counting heirloom XP bonuses) and not even half that for retail. Hell, probably not even a third. I've never actually gotten all the way to GW2 but given the nature of its design it's probably not a good comparison point regardless.

    Yeah, more work involved in WoW once you get there, but I still think that game comes out ahead on time-effectiveness of playing multiple classes in midcore raiding environments. It's *easier* to play more than one class in XIV, because it's all on one character, but it takes less time to do it on WoW. And playing multiple classes in ultimates *is* quite time consuming because BiS really *does* matter there. It's not a big deal if you're like 50 or 100 points off a substat, or you have more DH than you would prefer, but you still need to have the "right" pieces. They do tune that content strictly enough that it matters, especially since people are guaranteed to make errors over the course of an 18 minute marathon fight.

    But it doesn't have to be that way. Just increasing tomes to 900/week starting on week 5 would be a huge benefit, without any other changes. And again, the whole point here is that Yoshida has said he wants his game to be the kind that you can take a break from without feeling like you're losing progress. Yet that's not how savage gearing works.

  5. #1105
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    Savage is definitely *not* Mythic equivalent. It's far, far more generous on tuning than Mythic WoW is. Ultimates are the analogue for WoW Mythic raids.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm actually leveling a toon on Marilith now, coming back after a few months off. Wanted a nice, chill grindy game I could play when I'm not in the mood for more involving games.

    It's hard to overstate just *how* front-loaded that process is. Even skipping most cutscenes, I'm still probably looking at 15-20 hours if I beelined right to Abyssos on only one class, much less if I'm trying to enjoy the leveling process. Whereas in WoW, it might be 20-30 hours *total* to go from 1-80 in Classic WotLK (enjoying the process, not beelining using RestedXP or whatever the cool kids use these days, and not counting heirloom XP bonuses) and not even half that for retail. Hell, probably not even a third. I've never actually gotten all the way to GW2 but given the nature of its design it's probably not a good comparison point regardless.

    Yeah, more work involved in WoW once you get there, but I still think that game comes out ahead on time-effectiveness of playing multiple classes in midcore raiding environments. It's *easier* to play more than one class in XIV, because it's all on one character, but it takes less time to do it on WoW. And playing multiple classes in ultimates *is* quite time consuming because BiS really *does* matter there. It's not a big deal if you're like 50 or 100 points off a substat, or you have more DH than you would prefer, but you still need to have the "right" pieces. They do tune that content strictly enough that it matters, especially since people are guaranteed to make errors over the course of an 18 minute marathon fight.

    But it doesn't have to be that way. Just increasing tomes to 900/week starting on week 5 would be a huge benefit, without any other changes. And again, the whole point here is that Yoshida has said he wants his game to be the kind that you can take a break from without feeling like you're losing progress. Yet that's not how savage gearing works.
    Your opinions do not align with actuality, there’s no point in participating in this further, if you prefer wow you are welcome to play it instead since you seem very set in it being superior. Gl and have fun.

  6. #1106
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    Savage is definitely *not* Mythic equivalent. It's far, far more generous on tuning than Mythic WoW is. Ultimates are the analogue for WoW Mythic raids.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm actually leveling a toon on Marilith now, coming back after a few months off. Wanted a nice, chill grindy game I could play when I'm not in the mood for more involving games.

    It's hard to overstate just *how* front-loaded that process is. Even skipping most cutscenes, I'm still probably looking at 15-20 hours if I beelined right to Abyssos on only one class, much less if I'm trying to enjoy the leveling process. Whereas in WoW, it might be 20-30 hours *total* to go from 1-80 in Classic WotLK (enjoying the process, not beelining using RestedXP or whatever the cool kids use these days, and not counting heirloom XP bonuses) and not even half that for retail. Hell, probably not even a third. I've never actually gotten all the way to GW2 but given the nature of its design it's probably not a good comparison point regardless.

    Yeah, more work involved in WoW once you get there, but I still think that game comes out ahead on time-effectiveness of playing multiple classes in midcore raiding environments. It's *easier* to play more than one class in XIV, because it's all on one character, but it takes less time to do it on WoW. And playing multiple classes in ultimates *is* quite time consuming because BiS really *does* matter there. It's not a big deal if you're like 50 or 100 points off a substat, or you have more DH than you would prefer, but you still need to have the "right" pieces. They do tune that content strictly enough that it matters, especially since people are guaranteed to make errors over the course of an 18 minute marathon fight.

    But it doesn't have to be that way. Just increasing tomes to 900/week starting on week 5 would be a huge benefit, without any other changes. And again, the whole point here is that Yoshida has said he wants his game to be the kind that you can take a break from without feeling like you're losing progress. Yet that's not how savage gearing works.
    Ah now i get it, you want to play multiple jobs at once on one character with separate lockouts, and therefore the loot system has to cater to your needs.

    Isn't the change you actually want that the loot lockout is bound to a job instead of a character? Why make some elaborate change to savage loot like normal loot (and i don't get it, in your example i'd need to loot one chest token from boss 5-8 each to get a chest compared to getting the coffer from P8? Wouldn't that mean getting bis takes longer?)

    Also, your whole comparison is apples to oranges. If you want to actually compare you take one toon per job to have the same lockouts as in wow - of course you think there is not enough loot if you want one character to be able to get the same loot as 14 in WoW, but this makes the comparison just bad.

    I think i'll concur with Heatblast, your base premise is so off, this doesn't make a lot of sense.

    And i do get the feeling you want to bash ff14 to be too grindy and easy altogether - eg.: sAvAgE iS nOt MyThIC!!!!" - yeah mate, no one was talking about the difficulty, but compared to wow, highest raid content that is released REGULARELY (say 3 times an expansion) where you have similar rules for gearing. Because that's what the question was, not how hard it is to clear, but how much time it takes to get geared for the highest regular raid duty. And this is without a doubt Savage.
    Last edited by Pannonian; 2022-11-15 at 09:43 AM.

  7. #1107
    Can't talk about savage, but with regards to normal gear, I take leveling alts so slowly that my healer job is basically in full Abyssos gear by the time I hit cap on it. And even if not, it's basically impossible to not at least have Radiant gear. The weapon is the only rub, but it doesn't need to be with the Hildi weapons now.

  8. #1108
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Ah now i get it, you want to play multiple jobs at once on one character with separate lockouts, and therefore the loot system has to cater to your needs.
    No. I want to play multiple jobs on one character and have them proceed in gearing at nearly equal pacing. But that's not possible because of how they have looting setup. You have to have a "main" and any "alts" you want to play don't get to be used in third or fourth floor clears until several weeks in because crafted gear alone is not generally going to be sufficient for most groups to clear those fights.

    I also want to be able to play with anyone, at any time of the week, and not have my loot progression or their loot progression neutered because I had the fucking temerity to want to play with other people in an MMO.

  9. #1109
    I just want to blog for a teensy second...
    First, what was with all those quests that make you shout some shit in the /say channel, but making you do it again and again until you dot all your i's and cross all your t's? Which sadist came up with that?
    SECOND: I want a tenth circle of hell for the quest designer who made me study in the middle of my escapist fantasy! Tamachag: Azim steppe (the market place), if you havent done it and want to experience game dev sadism...
    Third: ANNOYINGLY! It makes me want to clear this stupid map to see how cheeky those devs get with their 'collect 8 bear arses' trope smashing.
    Fourth (ETA): Every quest is a puzzle quest... to an extent... i genuinely want more of this one tiny quest hub. Its super fun!... plus, im being fed more lore on my favorite zone in the entire game!
    Fifth (ETA2): A prize tip for immersion: Dont hoover the quests up for expedience. Just do them one at a time for immersion. Its so good.
    Sixth (ETA3): Okay, aside the castor/n quest, nothing else matched up. But im legit sad i cant do this again should i level another class... theyre gone for good on this avatar. Still... its one hub... but i always wanted to do the dotharl/sadu tribe quests... and i can do them now... im almost 68... and im in a literal race to hit 71 and resume trust dungeons... but...

    Hey! is there an advantage to alts? Like actual alts (a completely new character doing every single msq unlock...)? Like, no hero classes (no rogue, no dancer, no reaper etc). Just farming from 1-90 on a second character...? Is there an advantage over just dungeoon grinding on an alt? (aside of course the obvious fact that literally everything in game is once again opened up (plus, some of my glams and mounts will carry over)). Is there anything really big that might tempt me to make an alt?
    Last edited by ippollite; 2022-11-17 at 11:58 AM.

  10. #1110
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    I just want to blog for a teensy second...
    First, what was with all those quests that make you shout some shit in the /say channel, but making you do it again and again until you dot all your i's and cross all your t's? Which sadist came up with that?
    SECOND: I want a tenth circle of hell for the quest designer who made me study in the middle of my escapist fantasy! Tamachag: Azim steppe (the market place), if you havent done it and want to experience game dev sadism...
    Third: ANNOYINGLY! It makes me want to clear this stupid map to see how cheeky those devs get with their 'collect 8 bear arses' trope smashing.
    Fourth (ETA): Every quest is a puzzle quest... to an extent... i genuinely want more of this one tiny quest hub. Its super fun!... plus, im being fed more lore on my favorite zone in the entire game!
    Fifth (ETA2): A prize tip for immersion: Dont hoover the quests up for expedience. Just do them one at a time for immersion. Its so good.
    Sixth (ETA3): Okay, aside the castor/n quest, nothing else matched up. But im legit sad i cant do this again should i level another class... theyre gone for good on this avatar. Still... its one hub... but i always wanted to do the dotharl/sadu tribe quests... and i can do them now... im almost 68... and im in a literal race to hit 71 and resume trust dungeons... but...

    Hey! is there an advantage to alts? Like actual alts (a completely new character doing every single msq unlock...)? Like, no hero classes (no rogue, no dancer, no reaper etc). Just farming from 1-90 on a second character...? Is there an advantage over just dungeoon grinding on an alt? (aside of course the obvious fact that literally everything in game is once again opened up (plus, some of my glams and mounts will carry over)). Is there anything really big that might tempt me to make an alt?
    Personally i can see 5 reasons for an alt (3 of them apply to me, and my alts):

    Doing story again (now probably more redundant with NG+) incidentally, i always do all the Azim Steppe side quests as they are my favorite zone.
    Aesthetics - want to see a different WoL without using Fantasia all the time?
    Lockouts - Want to do more PF? (Getting a group with a lockout is much easier than without)
    Server/Datacenter - Obvious
    Retainer - If you pay for retainer it can be a nice passive income. I pay for extra retainer, so all my alts have fisher at 90 and all FSH retainer, which i log in once a day - sometimes there is a fat cat- just passive income for virtually no work apart from the initial time investment

  11. #1111
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    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    First, what was with all those quests that make you shout some shit in the /say channel, but making you do it again and again until you dot all your i's and cross all your t's? Which sadist came up with that?
    I really dislike those quests, myself. It's an interesting mechanic now and again, used sparingly, but it recurs in FF14 with an annoying regularity. Also not very friendly to people playing with a gamepad, which I often am when running around the open world and doing quests.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  12. #1112
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I really dislike those quests, myself. It's an interesting mechanic now and again, used sparingly, but it recurs in FF14 with an annoying regularity. Also not very friendly to people playing with a gamepad, which I often am when running around the open world and doing quests.
    O loveliest of branches, please grant me your succor!



  13. #1113
    Well, my WoW-refugee wife seems to be following the same curve that I did, albeit extremely compressed since she just started a month ago.

    ARR: "This is kinda awful but it's new so it's ok."
    HW: "Ok, now you got me hooked on this game, honey."
    SB: "...I hate Lyse so much."
    ShB: "So many great characters, I love that one guy!"
    EW: "...do I have to keep doing this? Not even reading anymore. Lets just do roulettes and log out."

    Alas, I guess our views align on this, hah.

  14. #1114
    Level 75 babeee! Chilling in rahk'tika... i forgot la hee existed. It was like a gentle blanket catapulted like an icbm into your face... but then it transitioned to the night time theme and im so comforted. What a theme!

  15. #1115
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Well, my WoW-refugee wife seems to be following the same curve that I did, albeit extremely compressed since she just started a month ago.

    ARR: "This is kinda awful but it's new so it's ok."
    HW: "Ok, now you got me hooked on this game, honey."
    SB: "...I hate Lyse so much."
    ShB: "So many great characters, I love that one guy!"
    EW: "...do I have to keep doing this? Not even reading anymore. Lets just do roulettes and log out."

    Alas, I guess our views align on this, hah.
    That seems to be the general consensus, honestly. EW was full of moments that are seemingly made to provoke memes and fanarts, but it was kind of weak as a story compared to ShB.

  16. #1116
    I hope my question is OK here - I'd appreciate feedback from fellow WoW refugees. I have tried very hard to like FFXIV but the storytelling makes me want to pound my head against my desk. I hate sitting and staring at the monitor while my character mutely bobs her head and various NPCs talk and talk. And talk. And talk. The story itself may be good but the way it is delivered really doesn't work for me. I realize this may mean that the game ultimately just isn't for me. But my problem is that I have former WoW guildmates playing FFXIV and I miss raiding with them.

    I like questing. I like crafting. I like dungeons and raids. I appreciate the quirky and friendly FFXIV community. But so far I haven't been able to tolerate the storytelling enough to get a character leveled.

    So if any of you have faced similar struggles, how did you deal with this? Is there a solution for me or do I need to either suck it up and deal with the godawful storytelling method or give up and play other games? Returning to WoW is not an option. Any tips, strategies, or solutions are welcome.

  17. #1117
    Quote Originally Posted by Saravat View Post
    I hope my question is OK here - I'd appreciate feedback from fellow WoW refugees. I have tried very hard to like FFXIV but the storytelling makes me want to pound my head against my desk. I hate sitting and staring at the monitor while my character mutely bobs her head and various NPCs talk and talk. And talk. And talk. The story itself may be good but the way it is delivered really doesn't work for me. I realize this may mean that the game ultimately just isn't for me. But my problem is that I have former WoW guildmates playing FFXIV and I miss raiding with them.

    I like questing. I like crafting. I like dungeons and raids. I appreciate the quirky and friendly FFXIV community. But so far I haven't been able to tolerate the storytelling enough to get a character leveled.

    So if any of you have faced similar struggles, how did you deal with this? Is there a solution for me or do I need to either suck it up and deal with the godawful storytelling method or give up and play other games? Returning to WoW is not an option. Any tips, strategies, or solutions are welcome.
    Ultimately it's up to you whether you want to skip cutscenes and race through it all. It'll go a lot faster, that's for sure, and if you don't care about what you're missing then there's no harm to it.

    You can always catch up on the story stuff on youtube later or something if you started caring about it!

  18. #1118
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    That seems to be the general consensus, honestly. EW was full of moments that are seemingly made to provoke memes and fanarts, but it was kind of weak as a story compared to ShB.
    O.o

    We must've played different games. EW is amazing. It brought me to tears. That last zone is heart wrenching (garlemald was also with those post WW2 vibes). There is so much subliminal messaging. It's an incredible story and there are still loose ends they can pull from in the future (in particular to do with Azem).
    The only thing about ShB is that it was contained to that world. So, they could present you with a brand new world and characters where everything is something new to be discovered without the constraints of what is already established. EW had to bring things to a close in the source. I myself found ShB a better isolated experience, but when it comes to wrapping the story up, Endwalker did a great job.

    Also, i gotta say i have been enjoying the raid encounters in Pandemonium and the new alliance raid a lot more. The raiding in FF atm is super enjoyable. Wish we had another Bozja, but it seems unlikely now. The island and deep dungeon probably took those resources.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2022-11-24 at 11:07 PM.

  19. #1119
    Quote Originally Posted by Saravat View Post
    I hope my question is OK here - I'd appreciate feedback from fellow WoW refugees. I have tried very hard to like FFXIV but the storytelling makes me want to pound my head against my desk. I hate sitting and staring at the monitor while my character mutely bobs her head and various NPCs talk and talk. And talk. And talk. The story itself may be good but the way it is delivered really doesn't work for me. I realize this may mean that the game ultimately just isn't for me. But my problem is that I have former WoW guildmates playing FFXIV and I miss raiding with them.

    I like questing. I like crafting. I like dungeons and raids. I appreciate the quirky and friendly FFXIV community. But so far I haven't been able to tolerate the storytelling enough to get a character leveled.

    So if any of you have faced similar struggles, how did you deal with this? Is there a solution for me or do I need to either suck it up and deal with the godawful storytelling method or give up and play other games? Returning to WoW is not an option. Any tips, strategies, or solutions are welcome.
    Where are you atm in FFXIV?

  20. #1120
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    O.o

    We must've played different games. EW is amazing. It brought me to tears. That last zone is heart wrenching (garlemald was also with those post WW2 vibes). There is so much subliminal messaging. It's an incredible story and there are still loose ends they can pull from in the future (in particular to do with Azem).
    The only thing about ShB is that it was contained to that world. So, they could present you with a brand new world and characters where everything is something new to be discovered without the constraints of what is already established. EW had to bring things to a close in the source. I myself found ShB a better isolated experience, but when it comes to wrapping the story up, Endwalker did a great job.

    Also, i gotta say i have been enjoying the raid encounters in Pandemonium and the new alliance raid a lot more. The raiding in FF atm is super enjoyable. Wish we had another Bozja, but it seems unlikely now. The island and deep dungeon probably took those resources.
    Meh, Endwalker was lame. 2 of the games most boring villains, atrocious pacing, the Final Days was mostly wasted and uneventful, bird bitch was super lame, Garlemald falling behind the scenes was idiotic (not specific to Endwalker but it was still incredibly lame), and don't even get me started on the time travel nonsense. What part of Ultima Thule was heart wrenching exactly? When the Scions "died"? Even though literally after Thancred, Y'shtola said it was possible to come back? That zone was the most tedious for me which is pretty bad considering Elpis, Mare Lamentorum, and Labyrinthos were also incredibly tedious. Honestly there wasn't a lot I enjoyed which is a shame because after ShB I had some really high hopes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Well, my WoW-refugee wife seems to be following the same curve that I did, albeit extremely compressed since she just started a month ago.

    ARR: "This is kinda awful but it's new so it's ok."
    HW: "Ok, now you got me hooked on this game, honey."
    SB: "...I hate Lyse so much."
    ShB: "So many great characters, I love that one guy!"
    EW: "...do I have to keep doing this? Not even reading anymore. Lets just do roulettes and log out."

    Alas, I guess our views align on this, hah.
    This honestly sums up how everyone I know feels as well. It's a shame they did Yda so dirty just to give us Lyse. In what freaking world does a group of people just go along with that and not say something ........
    Last edited by SuperKarateDeathCar; 2022-11-25 at 12:38 AM.

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