Wow refugees, what are you enjoying about the game?

[TheRevenantHero]

lol the lies.

I see the FF XIV community is still built only on their hate of wow. So sad...

"you're lying because I said so. I don't actually have any actual reason to call you a liar. I'm just a WoW diehard megafan so I will call people liars when they point out negative things about WoW."

[Ealyssa]

you're lying because I said so.

No, you're lying because facts contradict your claim.

You're entitled to your opinion, you aren't entitled to your facts. You can scream the sky is green as much as you want, it still will never be true.

You're a sad little person, I pity you. Having to lie on video games forum to protect the game you like playing... Seriously, come on now. You know you're lying, I know you're lying, everyone know you're lying. What's even the point here ?

That's MMO communities for you. They're like religions

Sure they are idiots everywhere in every game. But FF XIV still hold a very special defensive stance. Which is sad. Every MMO currently on the market have good and bad things. You can play more than one, or just one. But what's the point of truely hating everything else ?
That's what I don't understand. You can not like WoW, I don't give a fuck. But why lying about it ? It's the step I truely dont understand.

[Clozer]

Arcane mages and MM hunters are a prime example of 2-3 button rotations.

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It is slower. And it's because the animations are slower and more janky. It also feels slower because it's the same 2-3 buttons for the vast majority of specs.

This is a r1 mm hunter:
I count 7 rotational abilites and 2 cds: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=42

This is a r1 arcane mage parse:
I count 6 rotatonial abilities and 2 cds: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=6

Not sure what game you played, but it wasn't wow. At least you didn't play well, if you only press 2-3 buttons.

[Wrecktangle]

I think that the thing I enjoy most about FFXIV is that the combat is so much more complex than it is in WoW. It's just not as fun for me when combat is too simple like it is in WoW. When rotations are more complicated like in FFXIV is gives me moments to shine when I've mastered a particular rotation.

I never understood this statement. How exactly is FF14 combat complex? Like, explain it with concrete analysis and examples.

IMO Combat is very binary. Every press of Fast Blade on my Paladin will press Riot Blade right after it. This NEVER changes. In addition to this binary function, Fast Blade does absolutely nothing but DPS. It doesn't create an effect, generate a resource, or influence any decision points, etc. Combos are not complex AT ALL. You will always press the required button immediately after. Some jobs have branching combos, and they're designed usually in very binary ways where you alternate them to juggle maintenance buffs that have timers deliberately designed to be automatically redone perfectly on time.

I will almost always press my oGCDs on cooldown (and most encounters literally take this into account when designed) and there's very rarely usage that requires delaying or holding them (they do occur, but super rare). Cooldowns (and most oGCDs) are generally also very binary in nature and do a singular basic effect with minimal IF ANY synergy with any other oGCDs or GCDs presses.

(reusing an old post I made from BFA): While WoW may have much fewer buttons, the gameplay is deep (at least on my Ret Paladin, I know I know). I have a lot of optimizations to make:

1) Don't cap Holy Power
2) Spend procs so you don't waste them being overwritten by new procs
3) Have to spend Holy Power ever 4s to maintain 15% damage buff
4) Don't let CS sit on 2 charges
5) Use abilities in an appropriate priority so you don't get stuck with nothing to do/deal less damage (not sure how many classes have this issue, but it's a Ret one since it's a priority based cooldown class with no filler attack)
6) Priority changes during DPS cooldown with addition of an extra attack

That's just the baseline stuff. This changes depending on which talents you select, which azerite traits, trinkets, and Necklace powers you use. For instance, due to my traits, during my DPS cooldown, I have to prioritize spending Holy Power over a more fluid rotation because I have an extra generator and button forcing more clashes. Not only that, but the increased crit chance I get from it, props up my other azerite trait that deals DoT on a specific ability crit, but that ability can proc back to back, but I have to delay it so if it crits it doesn't overwrite my Dot (all while trying to not overcap resources/let abilities sit idle).

This DOESN'T even take into account my spec's utility. Having to watch 19 other people's raid frames for a split second BoP or Lay on Hands? Using Freedom on not only myself but others to take advantage of the mobility. Using free GCDs to cleanse poisons/diseases in dungeons on high keys (or old WoG backup healing?). Is this challenging? No. Is it complex? No not really. Is it deep and synergistic? Yes.

WoW has PLENTY of issues, but depth really isn't one of them IMO, especially if you're trying to optimize. I'd have to argue that it follows an easy to play, hard to master paradigm. FF14 on the other hand is very binary. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING in a vacuum, but it's something that I don't personally prefer when comparing different MMO's combat engines.

So being bottom DPS and over time learning to become top isn't a moment to shine?? I don't think I'm the best tank in the world because I know how to use a defensive cooldown at the right moment, it's not until I've fully mastered every facet of the class that I would even begin to develop hubris.

No it isn't. Being top DPS (especially in a game that doesn't even allow you to see that information tangibly or easily) doesn't count.

This is objectively wrong. WoW has the most simplistic combat of any MMO on the market. I don't understand how anyone can say something is simple compared to WoW. 90% of DPS classes are typically 2 MAYBE three buttons.

lol. I wish there was punishment for deliberately spreading misinformation and hyperbole. The only thing objectively wrong here is your inability to look at data that doesn't support your hate filled crusade.

[TheRevenantHero]

No, you're lying because facts contradict your claim.

You're entitled to your opinion, you aren't entitled to your facts. You can scream the sky is green as much as you want, it still will never be true.

You're a sad little person, I pity you. Having to lie on video games forum to protect the game you like playing... Seriously, come on now. You know you're lying, I know you're lying, everyone know you're lying. What's even the point here ?



Sure they are idiots everywhere in every game. But FF XIV still hold a very special defensive stance. Which is sad. Every MMO currently on the market have good and bad things. You can play more than one, or just one. But what's the point of truely hating everything else ?
That's what I don't understand. You can not like WoW, I don't give a fuck. But why lying about it ? It's the step I truely dont understand.

Right right. I'm lying purely because you said so. Ah huh. Whatever you say.

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This is a r1 mm hunter:
I count 7 rotational abilites and 2 cds: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=42

This is a r1 arcane mage parse:
I count 6 rotatonial abilities and 2 cds: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=6

Not sure what game you played, but it wasn't wow. At least you didn't play well, if you only press 2-3 buttons.

In a standard fight, arcane mages are mostly just using Arcane Blast and Arcane Barrage. They only use Arcane Missiles when it procs from Rule of Threes.

Hunters use Arcane Shot and Steady Shot. Aimed Shot is typically only used when it procs for quick cast because otherwise the cast time is too long and loses you DPS. A good portion of what's in that link are literally passives.

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I never understood this statement. How exactly is FF14 combat complex? Like, explain it with concrete analysis and examples.

IMO Combat is very binary. Every press of Fast Blade on my Paladin will press Riot Blade right after it. This NEVER changes. In addition to this binary function, Fast Blade does absolutely nothing but DPS. It doesn't create an effect, generate a resource, or influence any decision points, etc. Combos are not complex AT ALL. You will always press the required button immediately after. Some jobs have branching combos, and they're designed usually in very binary ways where you alternate them to juggle maintenance buffs that have timers deliberately designed to be automatically redone perfectly on time.

I will almost always press my oGCDs on cooldown (and most encounters literally take this into account when designed) and there's very rarely usage that requires delaying or holding them (they do occur, but super rare). Cooldowns (and most oGCDs) are generally also very binary in nature and do a singular basic effect with minimal IF ANY synergy with any other oGCDs or GCDs presses.

(reusing an old post I made from BFA): While WoW may have much fewer buttons, the gameplay is deep (at least on my Ret Paladin, I know I know). I have a lot of optimizations to make:

1) Don't cap Holy Power
2) Spend procs so you don't waste them being overwritten by new procs
3) Have to spend Holy Power ever 4s to maintain 15% damage buff
4) Don't let CS sit on 2 charges
5) Use abilities in an appropriate priority so you don't get stuck with nothing to do/deal less damage (not sure how many classes have this issue, but it's a Ret one since it's a priority based cooldown class with no filler attack)
6) Priority changes during DPS cooldown with addition of an extra attack

That's just the baseline stuff. This changes depending on which talents you select, which azerite traits, trinkets, and Necklace powers you use. For instance, due to my traits, during my DPS cooldown, I have to prioritize spending Holy Power over a more fluid rotation because I have an extra generator and button forcing more clashes. Not only that, but the increased crit chance I get from it, props up my other azerite trait that deals DoT on a specific ability crit, but that ability can proc back to back, but I have to delay it so if it crits it doesn't overwrite my Dot (all while trying to not overcap resources/let abilities sit idle).

This DOESN'T even take into account my spec's utility. Having to watch 19 other people's raid frames for a split second BoP or Lay on Hands? Using Freedom on not only myself but others to take advantage of the mobility. Using free GCDs to cleanse poisons/diseases in dungeons on high keys (or old WoG backup healing?). Is this challenging? No. Is it complex? No not really. Is it deep and synergistic? Yes.

WoW has PLENTY of issues, but depth really isn't one of them IMO, especially if you're trying to optimize. I'd have to argue that it follows an easy to play, hard to master paradigm. FF14 on the other hand is very binary. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING in a vacuum, but it's something that I don't personally prefer when comparing different MMO's combat engines.



No it isn't. Being top DPS (especially in a game that doesn't even allow you to see that information tangibly or easily) doesn't count.



lol. I wish there was punishment for deliberately spreading misinformation and hyperbole. The only thing objectively wrong here is your inability to look at data that doesn't support your hate filled crusade.

"You're on a hate-filled crusade according to me because you said something negative about WoW and that makes me angry."

[Clozer]

Right right. I'm lying purely because you said so. Ah huh. Whatever you say.

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In a standard fight, arcane mages are mostly just using Arcane Blast and Arcane Barrage. They only use Arcane Missiles when it procs from Rule of Threes.

Hunters use Arcane Shot and Steady Shot. Aimed Shot is typically only used when it procs for quick cast because otherwise the cast time is too long and loses you DPS. A good portion of what's in that link are literally passives.

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"You're on a hate-filled crusade according to me because you said something negative about WoW and that makes me angry."

I posted you 2 logs of the average endboss fight in wow and you say that these classes don't press the buttons in the logs? I don't understand. Do hunters not use multi shot? Volley? rapid fire? Kill shot? This is probably why you play ff14 now. xD

[Forteofgray]

You are absolutely kidding, right? FF is way, way, WAAAAY slower. The Global CD is five times slower. That is insane.
If you say it isn't you are desperately trying to desperately say something positive about it.
Or you are slower and you don't notice it

I love XIV but to say it's not slower than WoW is just delusional. The combat is inarguably slower. The leveling speed is also pretty bad. I'm at 57 and I need 2,995,200 experience to level to 58. they want us to go out in the world and do fates, but a fate my level gives 47,520. that's a fraction of what I need. I'd have to do over 60 fates to level that one time. Then you have Palace of the Dead which people swear up and down is the fastest way to level and it gives me a half a level's worth of experience regardless of how far into it I go and a run takes about 20 minutes.

The side quests are pointless too. They REALLY, REALLY need to up the experience rates and they've needed to for years. With each level cap extension, the problem is exacerbated. I'm leveling an Astrologian and I have one dot, one direct damage spell and an AOE damage spell. the trek to 80 is putting me to sleep. add to all this the fact that dungeons scale your level and you end up with only the spells up to that level and you have a recipe for a coma. really the best way to level is just to specifically select the highest dungeon from the group tool and spam it over and over.

[TheRevenantHero]

I posted you 2 logs of the average endboss fight in wow and you say that these classes don't press the buttons in the logs? I don't understand. Do hunters not use multi shot? Volley? rapid fire? Kill shot? This is probably why you play ff14 now. xD

No. They don't use multi-shot or volley in raids because fights are primarily single target. Kill Shot is only used towards the end of a fight so using that as an example is pretty silly. I honestly forgot about rapid fire so I guess MM hunters actively use FOUR buttons in their rotation. My bad.

[Clozer]

No. They don't use multi-shot or volley in raids because fights are primarily single target. Kill Shot is only used towards the end of a fight so using that as an example is pretty silly. I honestly forgot about rapid fire so I guess MM hunters actively use FOUR buttons in their rotation. My bad.

So you telling me wow is solely based on pure ST fights? Wanna go through the list of encounters in the last raid and count with me?

[Low Hanging Fruit]

One of the things I noticed right away was moderation in 14 has curved some toxic behaviors to the side. Yeah, it's the internet so some toxicity is still there but you don't get to brow beat people with damage meters and false reports are punished along with people that violate TOS. Goes to show even having a couple actual paid humans in the room makes a difference. Have gotten very used to bots only caring about key words being bannable or volentueer staffs that do little or nothing but jump on thier biased opinions. It is pretty terrible in WoW.

[Echo of Soul]

I never understood this statement. How exactly is FF14 combat complex? Like, explain it with concrete analysis and examples.

Sure. You can go to SALTEDFFXIV and look up the opener for Summoner for example or the Ninja guide.

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The thing about leveling in PotD/HoH is that you don't try to "go far into it", you just spam a certain floor.

In PotD that's 51-60 as a group. Just takes a few minutes each time, and gives a ton of XP.

That's not at all how you do them. Sure you CAN and a lot of people do but you don't have to and a lot of people don't. Is this some meta mumbo jumbo opinion you picked up from another game?

[Forteofgray]

Um...if they're looking to level quickly - which was the point of their post - then yes, that's the method which gains you XP the fastest.

Lets not start just tilting at windmills here about "meta mumbo jumbo" and "another game" when there was a very specific context to the conversation.

it really isn't fast at all. I've been doing it all night, same floors over and over doesn't make it go any faster.

[Poppincaps]

Right right. I'm lying purely because you said so. Ah huh. Whatever you say.

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In a standard fight, arcane mages are mostly just using Arcane Blast and Arcane Barrage. They only use Arcane Missiles when it procs from Rule of Threes.

Hunters use Arcane Shot and Steady Shot. Aimed Shot is typically only used when it procs for quick cast because otherwise the cast time is too long and loses you DPS. A good portion of what's in that link are literally passives.

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"You're on a hate-filled crusade according to me because you said something negative about WoW and that makes me angry."

Did you seriously just say that MM hunters don't use Aimed Shot? That you for proving that you know literally nothing about how MM hunter plays and you're just making shit up in your head. Go look at any top parse for a single target fight for an MM Hunter. What's their highest damage ability? You guessed it... Aimed Shot and it's not even close really.

[threads]

I love XIV but to say it's not slower than WoW is just delusional. The combat is inarguably slower. The leveling speed is also pretty bad. I'm at 57 and I need 2,995,200 experience to level to 58. they want us to go out in the world and do fates, but a fate my level gives 47,520. that's a fraction of what I need. I'd have to do over 60 fates to level that one time. Then you have Palace of the Dead which people swear up and down is the fastest way to level and it gives me a half a level's worth of experience regardless of how far into it I go and a run takes about 20 minutes.

The side quests are pointless too. They REALLY, REALLY need to up the experience rates and they've needed to for years. With each level cap extension, the problem is exacerbated. I'm leveling an Astrologian and I have one dot, one direct damage spell and an AOE damage spell. the trek to 80 is putting me to sleep. add to all this the fact that dungeons scale your level and you end up with only the spells up to that level and you have a recipe for a coma. really the best way to level is just to specifically select the highest dungeon from the group tool and spam it over and over.

fastest way to lvl is do your roulettes then queue the highest level dungeon you have unlocked.

[justandulas]

This is objectively wrong. WoW has the most simplistic combat of any MMO on the market. I don't understand how anyone can say something is simple compared to WoW. 90% of DPS classes are typically 2 MAYBE three buttons.

I'm actively playing FF14 over WoW currently, there's a lot about FF14 i can praise, but you are lying to yourself and others about the combat. It isn't revolutionary, or fast paced. My BLM rotation for example, is probably most similar to a vanilla mage's rotation. It's so simple a caveman can do it.

let's not sell ff14 as if it's a fast paced MUD typing contest, or an fps level of twitch combat, or even a DOTA level of timing and skill.

I like ff14, and i'm not trashing it, but honesty is important. my BLM rotation is equivalent to some of WoW's easiest specs of all time to play.

FF14 has a lot of selling points, but skill based combat aint it chief.

[Wrecktangle]

Sure. You can go to SALTEDFFXIV and look up the opener for Summoner for example or the Ninja guide.

Sigh. So no only did you ignore almost everything else I typed, you just sent me a link telling me to look at it. I've been playing this game since ARR 2.0. so I'll ask again, what is actually complex about the opener in the link you sent me? I am NOT a SMN expert, so by all means please correct me if I am mistaken anywhere in here.

It's the same sequence every single time. More than half of those presses do nothing but flat damage with no actual effects:

• Egi Assault - Flat damage.
• Egi Assault II - More flat damage.
• Energy Drain - Gives a resource.
• Tri-Disaster - Flat damage, with more damage over time.
• Aetherpact - Party wide flat damage buff.
• Dreadwyrm Trance - Instacasts, resets an oGCD ability's cooldown, and grants a resource on expiration (great ability, easily one of the more impactful abilities from a gameplay perspective in the game).
• Ruin 3 - More flat damage.
• Enkindle - More flat damage.
• Fester - Flat damage, with a condition that's nearly impossible to fail that simply generates more flat damage. Costs a resource to use
• Deathflare - Really beautiful, drop dead gorgeous flat damage.
• Ruin 4 - More flat damage.
• Wymwave - More flat damage.
• Enkindle Bahamut - Very pretty flat damage.

Of this list of 13 unique abilities in the opener:

• 9 of the abilities literally do nothing but passive flat damage (incl. Aetherpact in here).
• 1 of 13 has synergy with another ability Energy Siphon/Drain - Bane/Fester, but this ability isn't deep at all. It's binary. You either use it in ST or AOE respectively and it's only used on that one ability.
• 1 of 13 is actually interesting and deep in that it enables new abilities, also enables insta-casts, and resets an OGCD CD.
• 2 of 13 are marginally deeper than the other 9 in that they have other effects, but those effects are just more flat damage based on a condition or a DoT effect.

That's my point though. A lot of buttons, but not a lot of substance, almost no depth and near 0 synergy across the kit. THIS ISNT A BAD THING. This is a design decision and a lot of people like it. However, without depth, synergy, or decision fatigue; I fail to see how it can be considered complex.

Personally I'd say it's because you're using Paladin as your example (XIV not WoW). Paladin is; perhaps arguably, one of the easiest classes to pick up and learn, but most certainly the easiest of tanks. If you're looking for complexity try Dragoon which has a 26 button opener that yes does include your typical 1 2 3 combo/s. Or Ninja with it's high speed which has a 28 button opener, which technically is longer due to the mudra combinations which would put its opener somewhere in the mid to upper 30's. Perhaps caster is more your thing, then I'd suggest Summoner who's rotation is two minutes long, but fairly easy to screw up from what I hear.

Not Trying to argue which has more in depth or which takes more skill or anything, just pointing out that you're using one of the more straight forward jobs of XIV in comparison to others in XIV.

DRG is my main DPS . Dragoons rotation is functionally simple. It's just 2 alternating sequences that NEVER diverge in sequence or effect. Not only that, but they've nerfed it over time when it wasn't even complex or challenging to do in the first place. You used to have to do a tiny bit of extra work to get your 3rd Nastrond, but they made it free for all DRGs. BotD may as well be passive or not exist as a button since they made it trivial to upkeep since it's inception. It may have a stupid long opener and an absolutely obnoxious amount of oGCDs compared to other jobs, but that doesn't translate to complexity. Feel free to see my analysis on SMN above for clarification.

[Katchii]

it really isn't fast at all. I've been doing it all night, same floors over and over doesn't make it go any faster.

If you're doing the "Deep Dungeons" for xp then Floors 51-60 of PotD and Floors 21-30 of HoH are the best xp/hour using that option. No one is saying that this option is the fastest available or that it's "fast" just that spamming 51-60 or 21-30 give you the best xp/hour rate within the Deep Dungeon system.

[Milfshaked]

I never understood this statement. How exactly is FF14 combat complex? Like, explain it with concrete analysis and examples.

FF14 combat might not be rocket science, but it is far more complex than anything wow has to offer. I think saying anything different would require quite some dishonesty as the difference is massive.

I honestly do not consider this a positive though. FF14 in my opinion suffer from bloat from skills that do not add anything meaningful. FF14 might be more complex but I would not call it good complex. A few aspects that WoW does better than FF14 is interrupts, dispelling and CC. I would consider these aspects to be much better complexity and if FF14 worked on these aspects, it would raise the game in my eyes.

[cuafpr]

FF14 combat might not be rocket science, but it is far more complex than anything wow has to offer. I think saying anything different would require quite some dishonesty as the difference is massive.

I honestly do not consider this a positive though. FF14 in my opinion suffer from bloat from skills that do not add anything meaningful. FF14 might be more complex but I would not call it good complex. A few aspects that WoW does better than FF14 is interrupts, dispelling and CC. I would consider these aspects to be much better complexity and if FF14 worked on these aspects, it would raise the game in my eyes.

idk.. to me FF14 is slower and simpler combat as a lvl 71ish dragoon vs lvl 60 ret pally my dragoon is much more simple and easier to learn unless something comes into play later. I also feel with the longer GCD and in some cases animations, I have more time to think between attacks vs WoW button smash. could be that just comparing 2 classes is not indicative to the game overall though idk.

[Echo of Soul]

If you're doing the "Deep Dungeons" for xp then Floors 51-60 of PotD and Floors 21-30 of HoH are the best xp/hour using that option. No one is saying that this option is the fastest available or that it's "fast" just that spamming 51-60 or 21-30 give you the best xp/hour rate within the Deep Dungeon system.

Correct. The original claim though was something along the lines of it being the only way to play deep dungeon which obviously is absurd.

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let's not sell ff14 as if it's a fast paced MUD typing contest, or an fps level of twitch combat, or even a DOTA level of timing and skill.

I don't think that anyone is trying to sell it as any of those things. More complex than WoW's combat sure even though I'm pretty sure that the APM is slightly lower without checking sources.