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  1. #41
    I'm all on board with the concept of the Green New Deal. The specifics of a particular resolution I could quibble with the details of, but it is important to decarbonize and to do so in a way that bolsters the economy in a fair way...and doesn't screw the already marginalized, as is usually the case

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Environmentally, we should have done this 20 years ago. Politically, won't happen. Because of the GOP and their klan of science deniers, we won't make meaningful headway on climate change for decades.

    The GOP even accepted the reality of climate change until Obama wanted to save the planet. Of course, then there's the fossil fuel companies that knew it was happening and sat on their hands...
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
    -Louis Brandeis

  2. #42
    I'd like to know you guy's opinion on Major Traitor Greene's "views" on Earth Day and the GND




    Of course, I can expect some of the responses to be like but who doesn't?? I hate this woman about as or more so than Trump
    "You know you that bitch when you cause all this conversation."

  3. #43
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Environmentally, we should have done this 20 years ago. Politically, won't happen. Because of the GOP and their klan of science deniers, we won't make meaningful headway on climate change for decades.
    It's frustrating, as someone who's worked in the field. We see things like Biden promising a 50% reduction in emissions by 2030, I think? Great. We needed to reduce US emissions by that much by like the year 2000. 2030 is better than never, but because governments dragged their feet, we're past the point of no return; warming's gonna continue even if every single nation cut their emissions by 100% by literally tomorrow morning. At this point, we'd need to exceed 100% if we really wanted to prevent anthropogenic climate change from continuing.

    And before anyone says that's unpossible, carbon sinks are a thing. You can sequester more carbon than you emit, creating a net negative for emissions. There's a wide range of options there, but ain't none of them free.


  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by zEmini View Post
    Cars going electric should of been a thing 30 years ago. However does their useful life outlast the norm? Does manufacturing these create other unintentional consequences? Should we go back to nuclear?
    W Bush, Trump, and little tech boom we've had during 2005-2016 [Smart devices, G's, Internet expansion, etc..]
    "You know you that bitch when you cause all this conversation."

  5. #45
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's frustrating, as someone who's worked in the field. We see things like Biden promising a 50% reduction in emissions by 2030, I think? Great. We needed to reduce US emissions by that much by like the year 2000. 2030 is better than never, but because governments dragged their feet, we're past the point of no return; warming's gonna continue even if every single nation cut their emissions by 100% by literally tomorrow morning. At this point, we'd need to exceed 100% if we really wanted to prevent anthropogenic climate change from continuing.

    And before anyone says that's unpossible, carbon sinks are a thing. You can sequester more carbon than you emit, creating a net negative for emissions. There's a wide range of options there, but ain't none of them free.
    It's entirely frustrating. I am almost finished with Ministry of the Future, and while fiction, the science behind the necessary steps to not only slow the release of Co2 but also start to reverse it; along with sequestering practices, and reducing fossil fuel transportation; plus reversing the melting of the Artic and Antarctic glaciers to prevent ocean thermal blooming - are all but impossible in today's world. Even in Robinson's fictional tale he relied on a natural mass death (20 million in India from a 40C heat wave) and then essentially terrorist attacks on transportation industries, and then essentially a Global Depression to make all the fixes work.

    While fiction, the fixes seemed like solid science - and our world politics isn't even remotely close to addressing any the problems.

    To me, we're going to quickly slide into a Jungle Planet when the polar glaciers slide into the ocean, warming it, and allowing previously buried methane and Co2 to dramatically bloom and heat the atmosphere.

  6. #46
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Impossible, science is only about creating and physically testing explanations.
    What’s impossible? To act based on science? To act based on testing explanations?

    Science cannot determine human actions. We can only only act based on our *interpretations* of what is true and scientific.
    Uhm... Biden using science as a basis for his action, is not determined action. What do you base your actions on? What business wants or what someone convinces you is more liberty?

    Implementing policy that maximizes liberty or business prosperity isn't science either.
    No shit... you need to ignore science to maximize business prosperity.

    Capitalism and libertarianism isn't anymore scientific than environmentalism and socialism.
    In fact you conflating them in the way you are, means you don’t understand either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    I'd like to know you guy's opinion on Major Traitor Greene's "views" on Earth Day and the GND
    We are not energy independent...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
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  7. #47
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Quite the contrary, they're actually protecting longterm liberty by ensuring that our children, their children, and their children's children have a livable world where they're allowed to have liberty.
    Yes that's their opinion, it's what makes an environmentalist an environmentalist. They think prioritizing the environment will give the best long term results for civilization. Almost every ideology believes that about their core principle so they're all the same in that sense. I'm confident politicians will mostly prioritize the economy over the environment though and just kind of do half-assed environmental deals, where environmentalists will never be satisfied and optimistic about the future.
    Optimism! (HumanProgress.org)

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/h...6hres109ih.pdf

    John Kerry announced earlier this afternoon that the Biden administration wants all cars to go electrical, to invite credits for carbon, severely punish damage to the climate, and much more.

    What are your thoughts about the Green New Deal?
    WOW.

    This is ambitious. I hope the cut and paste turns out ok. This is from your link, which is the actual bill in the House.

    (4) to achieve the Green New Deal goals and 22mobilization, a Green New Deal will require the fol-23lowing goals and projects— 24VerDate Sep 11 2014 00:08 Feb 08, 2019 Jkt 089200 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 E:\BILLS\HR109.IH HR109kjohnson on DSK79L0C42 with BILLS
    11 •HRES 109 IH (A) providing and leveraging, in a way that 1ensures that the public receives appropriate 2ownership stakes and returns on investment, 3adequate capital (including through community 4grants, public banks, and other public financ-5ing), technical expertise, supporting policies, 6and other forms of assistance to communities, 7organizations, Federal, State, and local govern-8ment agencies, and businesses working on the 9Green New Deal mobilization; 10(B) ensuring that the Federal Government 11takes into account the complete environmental 12and social costs and impacts of emissions 13through— 14(i) existing laws; 15(ii) new policies and programs; and 16(iii) ensuring that frontline and vul-17nerable communities shall not be adversely 18affected; 19(C) providing resources, training, and 20high-quality education, including higher edu-21cation, to all people of the United States, with 22a focus on frontline and vulnerable commu-23nities, so that all people of the United States 24VerDate Sep 11 2014 00:08 Feb 08, 2019 Jkt 089200 PO 00000 Frm 00011 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 E:\BILLS\HR109.IH HR109kjohnson on DSK79L0C42 with BILLS
    12 •HRES 109 IH may be full and equal participants in the Green 1New Deal mobilization; 2(D) making public investments in the re-3search and development of new clean and re-4newable energy technologies and industries; 5(E) directing investments to spur economic 6development, deepen and diversify industry and 7business in local and regional economies, and 8build wealth and community ownership, while 9prioritizing high-quality job creation and eco-10nomic, social, and environmental benefits in 11frontline and vulnerable communities, and 12deindustrialized communities, that may other-13wise struggle with the transition away from 14greenhouse gas intensive industries; 15(F) ensuring the use of democratic and 16participatory processes that are inclusive of and 17led by frontline and vulnerable communities and 18workers to plan, implement, and administer the 19Green New Deal mobilization at the local level; 20(G) ensuring that the Green New Deal mo-21bilization creates high-quality union jobs that 22pay prevailing wages, hires local workers, offers 23training and advancement opportunities, and 24VerDate Sep 11 2014 00:08 Feb 08, 2019 Jkt 089200 PO 00000 Frm 00012 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 E:\BILLS\HR109.IH HR109kjohnson on DSK79L0C42 with BILLS
    13 •HRES 109 IH guarantees wage and benefit parity for workers 1affected by the transition; 2(H) guaranteeing a job with a family-sus-3taining wage, adequate family and medical 4leave, paid vacations, and retirement security to 5all people of the United States; 6(I) strengthening and protecting the right 7of all workers to organize, unionize, and collec-8tively bargain free of coercion, intimidation, and 9harassment; 10(J) strengthening and enforcing labor, 11workplace health and safety, antidiscrimination, 12and wage and hour standards across all employ-13ers, industries, and sectors; 14(K) enacting and enforcing trade rules, 15procurement standards, and border adjustments 16with strong labor and environmental protec-17tions— 18(i) to stop the transfer of jobs and 19pollution overseas; and 20(ii) to grow domestic manufacturing 21in the United States; 22(L) ensuring that public lands, waters, and 23oceans are protected and that eminent domain 24is not abused; 25VerDate Sep 11 2014 00:08 Feb 08, 2019 Jkt 089200 PO 00000 Frm 00013 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 E:\BILLS\HR109.IH HR109kjohnson on DSK79L0C42 with BILLS
    14 •HRES 109 IH (M) obtaining the free, prior, and informed 1consent of indigenous peoples for all decisions 2that affect indigenous peoples and their tradi-3tional territories, honoring all treaties and 4agreements with indigenous peoples, and pro-5tecting and enforcing the sovereignty and land 6rights of indigenous peoples; 7(N) ensuring a commercial environment 8where every businessperson is free from unfair 9competition and domination by domestic or 10international monopolies; and 11(O) providing all people of the United 12States with— 13(i) high-quality health care; 14(ii) affordable, safe, and adequate 15housing; 16(iii) economic security; and 17(iv) clean water, clean air, healthy and 18affordable food, and access to nature.
    Sorry for the wall of text. I'm not sure how to edit that into something more readable.

    This will never get passed as is - it is way too ambitious.

    However, this basically details exactly the kinds of things that the Biden administration is going to be pushing for. Two very important goals WILL (hopefully) be accomplished.

    1) People will talk about these goals seriously, even if it's republicans and business groups trashing it. PC2 is very smart - he makes it quite clear that he considers this to be EVIL AND STUPID AND BAD AND HORRIBLE while only talking in generalities. IT'S ANTI-LIBERTY and CAUSES POVERTY. That just becomes a name calling contest which republicans excel at and make a living with. imho the best way to deal with him is to just not respond to his posts. When he replies substantively, which happens now and again, sell and contrast what we are trying to accomplish with what the current situation is, knowing that we are not trying to influence him in anyway, but we are selling our ideas to the broader audience.

    2) Business will make business decisions aligned with some of these ideals. Business are far more liberal than the republican party, and unlike PC2 they have to deal with day to day realities. The owner of the Dallas Cowboys may have been cheering wildly for global warming when the arctic air got warm enough to hang out over Texas rather than staying up north earlier this year, allowing him to rip off Texas voters, I mean charge large sums of money selling his natural gas at awesomely (for him) high prices. But there are others that are not so thrilled about this, and many of these people would like climate change to be dealt with (in the case of Texas, winterizing so that when the arctic air once again hangs out over Texas, Texas deals with it better), and mitigated so that it doesn't get TOO much worse going forward.

    With luck, democrats will discuss various parts of this package, explaining them and selling them. Four years ago, Hillary told coal miners "We'll prepare job training for you so that as coal jobs go away, you'll be ready to move in to different careers." Coal miners said FUCK YOU WE ARE VOTING FOR TRUMP. Now West Virginia coal miners are talking about what job training they can get, and working to get renewable industries into their state to gradually replace their coal mines. Attitudes can be changed. Well not PC2, he is resolute. But he is not the target audience. And we only need to get 10% or so, maybe even less, of republicans to switch over to get a landslide.

    And, don't underestimate what Senator Manchin has done for the democratic party. He is the gateway towards getting enough republicans to change from FUCK YOU WE ARE VOTING FOR DESANTIS to Ok... we'll give President Biden another four years, holding my breath that it turns out ok, and don't tell my neighbors.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Yes that's their opinion, it's what makes an environmentalist an environmentalist. They think prioritizing the environment will give the best long term results for civilization. Almost every ideology believes that about their core principle so they're all the same in that sense. I'm confident politicians will mostly prioritize the economy over the environment though and just kind of do half-assed environmental deals, where environmentalists will never be satisfied and optimistic about the future.
    I mean, if you're gonna break out the pom poms for the destruction of earth as a habitable place for humans for the short-term stonk gains, cool. Like, we're just killing ourselves in the process, like when doctors used to prescribe or recommend cigarettes, heroine, and plenty of other drugs as remedies for all manner of ailment.

    We know better now. Just like we know better now on the environment. You just seem to disagree with the existence of science when it provides you with data that you find inconvenient to your world view. Which ain't terribly new.

    "Optimism" never accomplished anything. If it did I'd be married to Sigourney Weaver.

  10. #50
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Almost every ideology believes that about their core principle so they're all the same in that sense.
    No, acting on business interest, has nothing to do with making the world a better place. Acting on science, does not have a political leaning. The issue is weather politicians act on science or other interest.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    Conservative thinking is the new nazi mindset. We need a far left candidate in the chair after Biden so we can properly label these fuckers including MAGA as terrorists and far as the right-wing republicans spouting conspiracies about the climate and viruses we need to punish them enough that hurts them financially in the long run so we'll never see them again and it'll be hard for them to grass-root anything.
    Don't underestimate how liberal President Biden has turned out to be. He has far exceeded my expectations, and the business community has been far more receptive to liberal ideas than ever before. Considering the fact that Trump got SEVENTY FOUR MILLION VOTES or so, the country has moved a lot further left than I imagined was possible.

    What do republicans have to show for their excellent state results that they got in the last election? Voter suppression, a few bills expressing hatred towards the transsexual community, and some bills changing the power structure to keep republicans in power longer. The tide is turning against them, and President Biden has done a great job of keeping the pressure on them.

    He most definitely learned a lot when he was Vice President. And he is putting this knowledge to good practical use.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    PC2 believes that science will solve all environmental problems at the same time he thinks science is complete bullshit when it comes to climate change. You are wasting your time here.
    Yup.
    He calls proven facts.."unproven" and thus not facts. If it weren't for regulations the water he uses every day wouldn't be usable until toted from an outside well and boiled.

  13. #53
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/h...6hres109ih.pdf

    John Kerry announced earlier this afternoon that the Biden administration wants all cars to go electrical, to invite credits for carbon, severely punish damage to the climate, and much more.

    What are your thoughts about the Green New Deal?
    It means nothing. You cant enforce responsibility. Environmental consciousness is a feminine quality and the planet is still run by predominantly masculine-minded individuals

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    It means nothing. You cant enforce responsibility. Environmental consciousness is a feminine quality and the planet is still run by predominantly masculine-minded individuals
    That's a very insecure persons idea of masculinity. Like, wtf?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    To me, we're going to quickly slide into a Jungle Planet when the polar glaciers slide into the ocean, warming it, and allowing previously buried methane and Co2 to dramatically bloom and heat the atmosphere.
    Think how much excitement a "hypercane" will generate.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Environmental consciousness is a feminine quality
    ...it is? Since when? Do I have to turn my dick in now or something?

  17. #57
    I for one am...occasionally in touch with my feminine side...

    ...now if I can just remember her name.

  18. #58
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Yes that's their opinion, it's what makes an environmentalist an environmentalist. They think prioritizing the environment will give the best long term results for civilization. Almost every ideology believes that about their core principle so they're all the same in that sense. I'm confident politicians will mostly prioritize the economy over the environment though and just kind of do half-assed environmental deals, where environmentalists will never be satisfied and optimistic about the future.
    But the problem is that at some, ignoring climate change will cause a catastrophic decline in the habitability of the Earth by the majority of people (Jungle Planet). You've affirmed your belief in climate change and the environmental results, and those results will kill off 50-90% of the population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    It means nothing. You cant enforce responsibility. Environmental consciousness is a feminine quality and the planet is still run by predominantly masculine-minded individuals
    Wrong. You can literally enforce responsibility. Laws do that. Responsible driving is a perfect example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    ...it is? Since when? Do I have to turn my dick in now or something?
    There's probably a form for that....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Think how much excitement a "hypercane" will generate.
    The real issue is, as always, with science deniers. They literally don't believe in science until the tornado rips up their farm.

  19. #59
    Immortal TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    how is that relevant to what they said? which is nonsense by the way.
    It is relevant to corporate practice putting the onus on citizens when the main culprits driving the problem are the corporations. Same as the shit from plastic manufacturers, they tell people to recycle while those same companies produce plastics that literally cannot be recycled.

    And if you want some horrible facts about plastics...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    The real issue is, as always, with science deniers. They literally don't believe in science until the tornado rips up their farm.
    There in lies the problem that spawns people to adopt libertarian beliefs; the lack of any negative impact that would create empathy. He lives isolated where there are no environmental issues beyond an occasional tremor perhaps.

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