Why is end game tailored so much against the casual player?

[arr0gance]

Imagine thinking that typing "completely reinvent" means something it doesn't.,

WoW is WoW. Sure, there might be the occasional new system in world of systemcraft. But "completely reinvent" is a bit of a stretch. The underlying fundamentals of the game haven't changed since WOTLK. Level up, gear reset, grind end game...primarily raiding. Tell me how, exactly, that's completely reinventing itself?


Also, nice strawman. So much easier to create something out of thin air to argue against instead of actually making a real point.

What fucking innovation are you looking for then? Please, enlighten the class.

You can't. You know why? Because they are innovating. They are trying new things all the fucking time. Your initial statement about Blizzard not being innovative enough is the literal opposite of what's happening in reality. But that's not enough for you because, well shit. You didn't get a one-on-one with Mr. Blizzard himself where you get to tell him how exactly how you think the game should be designed.

Boo-fucking-hoo. Deal with it.

[TheRevenantHero]

na a hardcore raider is more worth by far more, we are the reason ppl buy tokens cuz we boost, one mythic clear costs 3M KSM 1.2M HC clear 350k i could go on, all that token money and if a hardcore raider switches guilds he has to trans like 6 alt chars for splits n shit all the race changes i did for special bosses (hello goblin jump and bersek) my server transes are worth alone more than 5 casual life time subs at this point.

Considering the hardcore raiders are MAYBE 5% of the population of the game? you're wrong. Casual players are the ones spending the most money.

[Crimson Spears]

You misunderstand. See I dont "want" you to waste time nor do I think you were any way shape or form required to do so. I'm just not interested in having the rest of the game revolve around the inability of people to stop themselves from doing things they profess to hate. Now it so happens to coincide that a good rewards scheme for casual players will stir that particular impetus on the part of some folks but that can and should be ignored.

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The part I dont understand is that for all their bitching and moaning they did it anyway and remained subbed. Why would you as a developer cater to this at the expense of literally everybody else? Those people that complained by and large weren't going anywhere, they are hopeless addicts. Why risk alienating everybody else to cater to somebody who is clearly stating they can't stop consuming your product despite themselves?

Honestly I am just fatigued from every piece of content tying itself to mythic when it shouldn't.

If torghast gave transmog over ash I would be happy. As for power rewards well I am a believer in rewards that match the difficulty of the content its not going to be easy to move me on that.

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What fucking innovation are you looking for then? Please, enlighten the class.

You can't. You know why? Because they are innovating. They are trying new things all the fucking time. Your initial statement about Blizzard not being innovative enough is the literal opposite of what's happening in reality. But that's not enough for you because, well shit. You didn't get a one-on-one with Mr. Blizzard himself where you get to tell him how exactly how you think the game should be designed.

Boo-fucking-hoo. Deal with it.

I don't think people want new things. They want new dungeons and raids not systems or half baked attempted content like warfronts or torghast. Blizzard has had successes... i dont think many people would complain about getting another mage tower this expansion. I see only positives from improving transmog by letting you split shoulders apart for new outfits.

People are tired of having blizzard try and force feed its audience a new feature they clearly have no interest in. The wow community isnt unpredictable look at covenants. The player base who did more then lfr clearly and concisely pointed out the problems with the system and were ignored and to what gain?

A delayed expansion and a system where 90% roughly of a spec are all the same covenant now.

[rhorle]

I have. in fact, recently they cut HALF of the levels required to reach max so they could reduce the ENTIRE leveling system to a glorified tutorial. The covenant campaign is a nice step in the right direction, though. Lots of story progress, epic scale, nice rewards. That is where the majority of resources should go, not raids. Open world solo content. Raids should just be a side thing you do with friends, like the multiplayer mode in other games.

Leveling was never anything but a glorified tutorial 120 or 60 it is the same thing.

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Beyond anima power can you explain how it is different? Same not quite elite level mobs, same named mobs with one or two mechanics, same boss mob. It seems like the exact same thing mechanically just upped from scaling from 3 to up to 5

What are the special mechanics you do to accomplish Torghast? Where are the themed events and other stuff that are what made Scenarios something special? Torghast is just a 1-5 player dungeon with levels to get to the end boss. It is closer to your typical dungeon then it is scenarios which were highly scripted and quick paced glorified quests.

It sounds like you've never actually played Mists of Pandaria or the Scenarios.

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WoW has become all about M+, Raids, and stupid "systems". And that's it once your max level. Casuals have nothing to do in WoW now.

And what exactly was there to do at max level in any other expansion? The things to do have slowly expanded from Raids over the years. Having more to do is never a bad thing and it is silly to even try to make the argument that it was some how better for casuals when all they had to do was Raids that they likely wouldn't see until the last patch of Cataclysm added LFR.

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So give me a path to work toward the gear that doesn't require submitting to harsh community standards. Otherwise if I can't have a place in the game, why should I pay sub money to help support it?

You do have a path to work towards that gear. It just won't be the highest in the game because you are not doing the highest content in the game. Your harsh community standards are half made up or self inflicted. Do you remember when you claimed you had to watch hours of videos and streamers just to do normal encounters in a different thread? You keep seeming to skew everything into making yourself a victim for whatever reason.

[Tadkins]

You do have a path to work towards that gear. It just won't be the highest in the game because you are not doing the highest content in the game. Your harsh community standards are half made up or self inflicted. Do you remember when you claimed you had to watch hours of videos and streamers just to do normal encounters in a different thread? You keep seeming to skew everything into making yourself a victim for whatever reason.

It's not only not the highest, but it's laughably low, with no hope of ever progressing any better. I get my 190-200 gear, and then what? I queue for random BG after random BG, get stomped all day every day, and come out with nothing to show for it. Why would I pay for a sub if I'm just going to be treated like the game's punching bag?

The harsh community standards are made up? So raiderio and log standards within guilds don't exist, is that what you're saying?

[rhorle]

It's not only not the highest, but it's laughably low, with no hope of ever progressing any better. I get my 190-200 gear, and then what? I queue for random BG after random BG, get stomped all day every day, and come out with nothing to show for it. Why would I pay for a sub if I'm just going to be treated like the game's punching bag? The harsh community standards are made up? So raiderio and log standards within guilds don't exist, is that what you're saying?

Who cares if it is laughably low? What else are you doing in the game? Stop reaching above the level you can obtain. You won't get stomped all day every day from your item level being 200 in random battlegrounds. I do just fine and I'm around 200 item level. You also get something to show from it for doing PvP even if you personally get stomped. Honor and Conquest. In a BG you can die a lot and as long as you help support your team you can still win.

You are not being treated like the games punching bag. You are being treated at the content level you can complete within your ability. You keep making everything out where you are the victim. And yes your harsh view of all of the community is made up. A person like yourself looking to get into a normal mode raid won't be needing raider.io or logs to get accepted or in. Everything you keep saying you do doesn't match up for the skill or spot you could realistically get.

Instead it seems like you keep trying to get into Mythic guilds while barely being able to handle LFR. Which doesn't mean the community is harsh it just means you want more then you are able to do and get upset when people don't carry you.

[Zorachus]

The sad white knights and simps defending Shadowlands like it's good and not the bore fest, generic expansion it really is.

Once level 60 and Campaign / Covenant stuff done there's only the grind of M+ and Raiding. That's it.

We're like 6 months into the expansion and still months away from new content in 9.1 due in July / August per everything I read and hear.

WoW is so much better when there's other end game content like Class Halls, Artifact weapons appearances, class mounts, Mage Tower, or the cool MoP dungeon runs for the Champion gear.

[Tadkins]

Who cares if it is laughably low? What else are you doing in the game? Stop reaching above the level you can obtain. You won't get stomped all day every day from your item level being 200 in random battlegrounds. I do just fine and I'm around 200 item level. You also get something to show from it for doing PvP even if you personally get stomped. Honor and Conquest. In a BG you can die a lot and as long as you help support your team you can still win.

What can you spend the honor and conquest on if you're not doing rated PvP?

You are not being treated like the games punching bag. You are being treated at the content level you can complete within your ability. You keep making everything out where you are the victim. And yes your harsh view of all of the community is made up. A person like yourself looking to get into a normal mode raid won't be needing raider.io or logs to get accepted or in. Everything you keep saying you do doesn't match up for the skill or spot you could realistically get.

I'm being treated like a punching bag if my 190-200 self is being put into a viper's pit full of 220+ folks.

Anytime I say "I'm looking for a guild" the response tends to be "you'll always find a good guild if you have good logs", but what if you don't have good logs? What if you just want a good, kind normal/heroic guild to have fun with and learn?

Instead it seems like you keep trying to get into Mythic guilds while barely being able to handle LFR. Which doesn't mean the community is harsh it just means you want more then you are able to do and get upset when people don't carry you.

Never said any of that. I'm not trying to join mythic guilds and I'm not asking for carries. I just want to be able to play the game without feeling like the scum of the community.

[kaintk]

Because elitists cry really hard anytime they aren't special snowflakes.

that

its the only answer you need

and for peoples saying why blizzard should give high stuff to casual too ? hmm... because we pay the same amount of cash each month for the game ? and we love to see our character going up in power ?

and before you told us to go in a high guild and go do 1000 hours of pvp or mythic raid, we dont do it, because its a old concept and boring like sh**, blizzard are too lazy actually, they should put a lot of rpg event in the game, a lot of different pve event to actually make the game a real MMORPG, but nah, they too lazy and only love doing nothing more than 1 raid each 3-4 month

[rhorle]

What can you spend the honor and conquest on if you're not doing rated PvP? .

Gear to get 200. Why do you need rated PvP gear if your no interested in rated PvP? You are not being treated like a punching bag in random BG's if your gear is around 200 because it isn't just about 1v1 dueling. If the response is always you need good logs then you are asking the wrong people are setting your sights on on a certain definition of good rather then a normal mode good guild.

There are plenty of good kind normal guilds out there looking for people. You can play the game with out feeling like the scum of the community. The problem is all the posts you have made recently talking about having to spend hours watching videos for any encounter, having your logs analyzed on class discord, and all of the other extreme stuff you've said you have done just for normal mode play shows that there is either exaggeration on your part or something else is at play. Because you don't need to do that stuff for majority of the normal mode guilds. You don't even need to do all of that stuff to learn a rotation and follow it.

[Elbob]

that

its the only answer you need

and for peoples saying why blizzard should give high stuff to casual too ? hmm... because we pay the same amount of cash each month for the game ? and we love to see our character going up in power ?

and before you told us to go in a high guild and go do 1000 hours of pvp or mythic raid, we dont do it, because its a old concept and boring like sh**, blizzard are too lazy actually, they should put a lot of rpg event in the game, a lot of different pve event to actually make the game a real MMORPG, but nah, they too lazy and only love doing nothing more than 1 raid each 3-4 month

You pay to have access to the same content, your sub is not for the rewards. In your opinion how should blizzard grant you the items? And try to be specific not some "by doing content" answer, I mean time/skill/effort investments

[rhorle]

and before you told us to go in a high guild and go do 1000 hours of pvp or mythic raid, we dont do it, because its a old concept and boring like sh**, blizzard are too lazy actually, they should put a lot of rpg event in the game, a lot of different pve event to actually make the game a real MMORPG, but nah, they too lazy and only love doing nothing more than 1 raid each 3-4 month

So then you don't need high level gear. You can still progress your character and have it grow in power. The ceiling is just set lower if you refuse to do higher difficulty content. There is nothing wrong with that at all. And there is no reason to demand you be given that higher level gear when you don't need it for the content you do do. The rewards you can get are equivalent for the level you choose to play.

Besides if those concepts are old and boring why are you even saying you want high stuff? That is old and boring isn't it? Why do you need more then normal level loot if you never plan to play higher then normal?

[Tadkins]

Gear to get 200. Why do you need rated PvP gear if your no interested in rated PvP?

Because you're fighting with rated PvPers even in random PvP. For a PvE comparison, it is like having a boss in a heroic dungeon randomly morph into its +15 tyrannical incarnation. Would that be fair?

[rhorle]

Because you're fighting with rated PvPers even in random PvP. For a PvE comparison, it is like having a boss in a heroic dungeon randomly morph into its +15 tyrannical incarnation. Would that be fair?

You are rarely facing a full time of max geared players in a battleground though. From everything you've posted before it isn't the gear that would be your problem but your struggle with the rotation/class mechanics. You'll also have team mates that are higher geared then you if what you say is true. So just stick near them and help out. Play the objectives be the fodder so the others live. Win Win.

[Tadkins]

You are rarely facing a full time of max geared players in a battleground though. From everything you've posted before it isn't the gear that would be your problem but your struggle with the rotation/class mechanics. You'll also have team mates that are higher geared then you if what you say is true. So just stick near them and help out. Play the objectives be the fodder so the others live. Win Win.

I would still rather lose a skill based fight than a gear one. The skill fight at least isn't totally one-sided and I could actually learn something from a loss. If my 200 faces down a 226, what hope is there to win?

Yes I could just stick with the group like a baby to its mother and plink pathetically at my opponents with what gear I have, but what fun is that? I'm going to die the minute they look at me, or if they happen to ambush me on the road when I'm trying to run to the group. I don't want to pay 15 a month to be someone else's punching bag and fodder. What was wrong with the system we had before where we could slowly earn good conquest gear?

[rhorle]

Yes I could just stick with the group like a baby to its mother and plink pathetically at my opponents with what gear I have, but what fun is that? I'm going to die the minute they look at me, or if they happen to ambush me on the road when I'm trying to run to the group. I don't want to pay 15 a month to be someone else's punching bag and fodder. What was wrong with the system we had before where we could slowly earn good conquest gear?

You won't die the miniute they look at you and even if they do focus on you that means your team mate survives that much longer. You are aware that battlegrounds are a team objective thing rather then a 1v1 duel in the center of the map right? Anyone can get ambushed on the road regardless of gear. You say you would rather lose a skill battle but never stop and consider if it is your skill holding you back rather then your gear. And given your own posts it is skill. You take the easy road of whining about everything else.

Slowly earning it would still mean you are out geared by the highly rated players. Isn't it weird how the system you say was better still has all the pitfalls that you blame the current system for.

[Tadkins]

You won't die the miniute they look at you and even if they do focus on you that means your team mate survives that much longer. You are aware that battlegrounds are a team objective thing rather then a 1v1 duel in the center of the map right? Anyone can get ambushed on the road regardless of gear. You say you would rather lose a skill battle but never stop and consider if it is your skill holding you back rather then your gear. And given your own posts it is skill. You take the easy road of whining about everything else.

Slowly earning it would still mean you are out geared by the highly rated players. Isn't it weird how the system you say was better still has all the pitfalls that you blame the current system for.

I am aware but that doesn't mean 1v1 duels don't happen in random battlegrounds. Sometimes they're necessary. That guy you left alone to defend the mine, for instance. Plus there's the open world to consider with warmode on. Up until now I've done okay in random battlegrounds with the decent (but not the best, of course) conquest gear I was given. I was 460 (and higher later once I mastered 5 mask visions) in BfA when everyone else was 475. That wasn't bad. When I lost fights it typically was because I was outplayed. If I joined up in SL? Unless I'm given the choice to fight only other 200 folks, it probably will be purely a gear issue. Still haven't answered the question, why should I pay 15 a month if all I have to look forward to is being a simpering minion at best, or sacrificial fodder at worst?

[rhorle]

When I lost fights it typically was because I was outplayed. If I joined up in SL? Unless I'm given the choice to fight only other 200 folks, it probably will be purely a gear issue. Still haven't answered the question, why should I pay 15 a month if all I have to look forward to is being a simpering minion at best, or sacrificial fodder at worst?

Don't make excuses it won't probably be a purely gear issue if you were losing to better players before. If you lost to better plays before you would still be doing it now. And if you are as skilled as you are trying to claim you would have no problem getting better PvP gear now. You are not a simpering minion at best or sacrificial fodder at worst. Stop playing the victim card because you are a terrible player and can't face that fact.

You pay to play. You don't pay to be equal to others. If you don't enjoy playing then stop playing. There is nothing wrong with that and that is how it will always be. If you can't enjoy the game because you are not given high level gear for no effort then quit. But given all your past posts it isn't just about the gear level because you have a skewed perception of everything that is required to do anything in the game.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53143227

The common denominator here is you and not the game design.

[Tadkins]

Don't make excuses it won't probably be a purely gear issue if you were losing to better players before. If you lost to better plays before you would still be doing it now. And if you are as skilled as you are trying to claim you would have no problem getting better PvP gear now. You are not a simpering minion at best or sacrificial fodder at worst. Stop playing the victim card because you are a terrible player and can't face that fact.

I could turn that right back around on you; if I am that bad of a player, why would it matter if I can acquire decent gear? I'd still be trashed left and right, correct? Except I would be losing fair fights and any skill based issues would in fact be on me.

But yeah, I'm not going to resub and pay for the game if all I have to look forward to is being a second-class citizen. We'll see how the game does in the near future when all the players like me are driven off and Blizz loses that funding.

[rhorle]

I could turn that right back around on you; if I am that bad of a player, why would it matter if I can acquire decent gear? I'd still be trashed left and right, correct? Except I would be losing fair fights and any skill based issues would in fact be on me.

Because you don't need higher gear for the content you choose to do. Higher item level gear is the reward for the content you play. The more difficult you do the better gear you get. So you don't get that reward if you don't do the content that offers it. Why should you get the reward when not doing the content that offers it? Why do you deserve something for nothing? The gear you can get is more then sufficient for the content you choose to do.

You are choosing to be the second class citizen with your outlook. It isn't something the game forces on you. You keep using item level as this status symbol when it really isn't. If all the players like you are driven away then the game will likely do better simply because you won't have people acting arrogant and demanding. The rewards have been more then enough to clear the content you get them from for a while. Again you play the victim card. The game would not be better if you got handed the best gear for no effort. You'd just quit when you hit the skill wall and find a new excuse to rage about.