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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by entrust View Post
    Hi.
    I've been playing casually since some events in my life forced me to not take the game so serious,
    so I've been in some less organized groups who still raid some mythic and with my experience from some competitive gaming I came into some strange conclusions.

    Switching a spec takes only 10 seconds, and there are so many hybrid classes, yet there is no practical way to utilize them,
    if one doesn't spend considerable amount of time and Shadowlands is even less forgiving in that regard since covenants came into the mix,
    and one spec can be vastly superior when using a certain one, while being less than optimal in other,
    so for example a healer spec of some class, can use a different covenant than a dps spec from the same character.

    Switching a covenant can be done once a week, and one has to also do some chores on top of it,
    farming a 235ilvl legend takes approximately 5 weeks. 5250/1140 Soul Ash per week
    there is also farming Stygia, which I wouldn't personally say is that bad in itself, but can be really tiring, if you want to do it on multiple toons.

    Now, I brought the casual player argument because, it seems to me like the ones who really suffer from this IMO stupid design choice,
    are the guilds on the lower end. Someone can't attend a raid and a healer/tank is missing. The guild has many hybrid classes in the group,
    but none are using it, because it is so gimped.
    I've noticed that a lot of players wouldn't mind to switch it here and there, even though they wouldn't want to stay that role full time,
    but there is really little to no incentive to even try it.
    Lower end guilds would benefit from it, even if it was: 'John could you heal today, so we could raid?'
    and I don't think higher end ones would suffer.

    Then there is another design choice that the developers set on, and it seems it will stay this way forever: 2 tanks, mostly 4-5 healers, rest dps.
    Most of these fights for tanks are: switch[taunt] after X amount of stacks, that's it - done; or switch after Y ability.

    I got 2 characters, one is a Monk who can play every role, and 2nd is a Mage who is a beast when it comes to dps. I personally would find it really cool if a certain encounter demanded for example 5 tanks, other one 8-10 healers, another 15 dps with 1 tank, and I would be able to fluidly change my spec on my hybrid class, but I cannot do it, as it's a huge time sink. I already am playing Brew with my friends in M+ and WW on raids, and I'd love to chill on MW sometimes, but it's impossible to imagine.
    Players who cannot fathom not being somewhere around the top of 'Damage Done' dps meter can stay pure dps.

    I doubt it will change the way things are, but I just wanted to see how other players feel about it.
    It's standard problem with Blizzard solving problem of 1% of VIP players, while destroying game for other 99%. Overall alt/spec-unfriendliness of current game is designed to prevent split-raids, that were performed during WF race. What % of players suffers from this problem? Several top professional (i.e. paid) guilds?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    So time invested equals to skill, by this logic. Good to know.
    I hope you are aware of the fact that in Life you get a lot better at something by investing more time in it?
    Unless, of course you, are incredibly talented but even talent is something that you have to invest a lot of time into nourishing.

    This obviously implies that you put any meaningful effort into getting better.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    So time invested equals to skill, by this logic. Good to know.
    You are aware of the fact that, for most things in Life, you get better by investing time into it?
    Even "Talent" is something that has to be nourished and trained.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    Being a casual has nothing to do with skills.
    You might not have time to commit to raids, but you still want to play as optimal as you possibly can.
    Not really. Casual does not only refer to the time invested in the game, but more to the attitude you have. If you want to play optimally, you're a minmaxer, not a casual. A casual is pretty relaxed, treats the game as a game. Of course there are skilled casuals (those that know that you can do amazing without the "right" covenants), but everything OP described least affects those that just want to play the game without overthinking it.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    It's standard problem with Blizzard solving problem of 1% of VIP players, while destroying game for other 99%. Overall alt/spec-unfriendliness of current game is designed to prevent split-raids, that were performed during WF race. What % of players suffers from this problem? Several top professional (i.e. paid) guilds?
    Why is it "destroying" for all others? Even casuals can progress in their own pace and literally have infinite content because they will probably not clear it before the next content hits.
    And in what scenario is Shadowlands alt-unfriendly? This is by far the best addon since probably Cataclysm to play alts, I have so many different character able to Mythic Raid/doing High Keys etc. like never before. Especially since the Valor Return. It's so damn easy to fill up gear gaps with that, the legendary system is easy to maintain on alts with almost no effort beside maybe 40min in a week. The same is happening with different specs of a single class. You can't tell me it's not possible to maintain all three specs. I am playing a Paladin Main by myself and literally have every spec ready to play. That was not much effort at all.

    Other ideas that OP had like 'an encounter needing 5 Tanks, 10 healers' etc. would literally be the worst for casuals and every non coordinated thing in WoW. Good luck having to build your group around that.

    These posts just show me the people don't know what they are demanding, what results it would end with. Nonsense.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Not really. Casual does not only refer to the time invested in the game, but more to the attitude you have. If you want to play optimally, you're a minmaxer, not a casual. A casual is pretty relaxed, treats the game as a game. Of course there are skilled casuals (those that know that you can do amazing without the "right" covenants), but everything OP described least affects those that just want to play the game without overthinking it.
    Yet they overthink more than any skilled or non casual player. The difference is just: Non-Casual player: Want to perform at max. Does not have to change covenants etc. at all, because once it's clear what is 'the best' he will stick with it.
    Casual: I want to make 'fun' things and be able to do whatever I want, I won't do it an a serious level anyway because I can't perform in those stuff anyway, yet I think I have to minmax everyting like Covenants for those 'fun' things.

    Seriously, for those things these people want to do they can literally play whatever they want. Especially the OP example, he plays a Monk, is probably Kyrian anyway which means he is good with it in every Spec anyway. And especially for MW 'fun' he wants to play here and there every other covenant is viable.
    Last edited by Poopsnacker; 2021-04-23 at 07:04 AM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopsnacker View Post
    Yet they overthink more than any skilled or non casual player.
    I don't know if "think" is the right term to describe it. It's more like reading a guide once, copy it and then defending their build/choice to the death. Evident by the huge amount of covenant discussions on this forum.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Because the elitist tryhards are the content creators so Blizzard is now leaning towards catering to them even though it's causing people to leave in droves.
    There isn't a single popular content creator that likes the covenant system, or anything op mentioned for that matter. You thought you saw an opportunity to vent your unreasonable anger towards the "streamers", your mortal enemy, but that argument is misplaced here. The absolute vast majority of content creators hate the system for exactly that reason. Keep your cool.
    Last edited by LazuOG; 2021-04-23 at 07:16 AM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    You said that time constrained people shouldn't aspire to what more skilled people have, thus establishing a direct connection between time spent and skill. But it looks like you didn't even realise what you wrote.
    I said that when you look at equally skilled individuals, the one with a tenth of the time investment is going to accomplish less. Whatever mess of logic is going on in your head is on you
    Like what? How the hell are you getting that out of my words lmaooooo

    "If my playtime per week is a tenth of that of my peers"
    This is the basis of my statement, it defines two populations, myself and my peers, each as individual entities. One has 10x the amount of time to commit to a video game
    I shouldnt expect to be able to accomplish as much as my equally skilled peers".
    This statement further separates the previously stated two populations I am talking about. By implying that when I only compare one of the original populations (myself) to a sub group of the other originally stated population (my peers) and only looking at those who happen to be sub categorized as being equally skillful.

    time constrained people shouldn't expect the same things equally skilled people with more time achieve

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    I don't know if "think" is the right term to describe it. It's more like reading a guide once, copy it and then defending their build/choice to the death. Evident by the huge amount of covenant discussions on this forum.
    Exactly, I edited my post again with somewhat the same^^

    The Casuals just don't understand that they could actually play whatever they want for most specs and probably don't even perform that different on their level, yet they read something and think they have to play it 100% that way.

    These kind of threads are just proving they don't have the slightest clou but it's easier to complain about something. Same bullshit with every IRL situation.

  10. #50
    Viable is such a watered down term. I can clear normal CN without choosing talent points, but it's fucking boring and annoying to be artificially weaker. Why should I play a specc that is gimped by default? It's not fun to know some arbitrary system is holding you back. Get that in your head.

  11. #51
    Brewmaster czarek's Avatar
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    Because those devs care about elitists? Im not sure they just cut content into small batches to make it valuable for a longer time. Is it good? No its a bit frustrating if u wanna do ALT. Imo this patch is to small to stick huge base to be subbed. Actually 9.0 is on dead season until 9.1 is out. Catch up mechanics? Yes they are but still they are cuted on to small batches. Valor amount is just silly to gear up ALT properly before 9.1. Ashes? Same i think ashes should be acc wide after u craft one legendary to max level. Valors should be dropped from even M0 to take a little boost per week. Give us a weekly q for 1k valor points. And one thing. Elite players are in minor atm. Most play casually. Ppl want fast tracking instead of slow progresion. I mean if you do like it you can go play wow classic but modern wow need to flow faster. I know a lot of ppl just raid log or do weekly vault because they finished everything in here and jump between other games on market or just unsub and play other stuff.

  12. #52
    Bloodsail Admiral Viikkis's Avatar
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    Depends what you call casual. You mention raiding mythic level content and that is not the best place for casual gamers to be. That is the place where optimal BiS setups and covenants matter more and well even there you certainly can take a casual approach and down some bosses. But the thing is there are many raid tiers below it to find the difficulty level to match your level of playing.

    It is all about the mentality of players themselves. I've noticed a strange phenomenon where the casual and less skilled players actually take stuff like warcraftlogs, simming and bis setups more seriously than they need to. I guess this happens because they want to be like the "good players". The same thing happened in Classic where even the casual players would stress over world buffs which makes zero sense from casual point of view but they did so nonetheless.

    But as always you just need to find the people to match your playstyle. Because casuals include a whole range of different playstyles. Some play purely for fun they just happy to have a full guild run for normal raid. Others are more semi-hardcore type to play less, but be serious about the progress so they look more into optimal specs and go through logs etc. but still think their casuals.

  13. #53
    I'm more of the person who thinks if you don't find the game to be too your liking, it's time to find a new game. This idea to "tailor" a game to your needs very entitled and only hurt games in the end...

  14. #54
    High Overlord Yanzina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    You said that time constrained people shouldn't aspire to what more skilled people have, thus establishing a direct connection between time spent and skill. But it looks like you didn't even realise what you wrote.



    Yeah, I'd like to see a hard proof of casuals playing much more hours than the elite, while also being overall terrible as you seem to imply.
    Hello yes hi, I no longer consistently raid because I am now more casual at wow. Played since vanilla, my og skill was taking 8 months to get from 40-50 because I didn't realize what "at war" meant on the reputation tab. I've also pushed world top 10 boss kills so I've been all over the board. When I was "elite", if you didn't raid or pvp, you played different games between doing those two activities weekly and this actually increased the more time there was between tiers. Most no lifeing happens for 2 weeks - a month and a half depending, progression or guild raid days.


    After clearing tiers, most people log in for 1 or 2 raid days a week to farm raid gear for the next tier and they become some of the people who play the game the least. ( the same people pushing top world 100 boss kills)

    I'm not going to say casuals or elites takes up more play time than the other because it varies too much between players.
    I've known casuals that play the game 2 hours a week and I've know casuals that play somewhere between 20-30 hours a week.

    Labeling the elites of wow as people who spend every waking minute playing or trying to get better applies to so few people actually in that category.

    While I do agree that time spent =/= skill.
    However,
    Effort = time spent = skill or reward.
    And players should be rewarded for putting in effort to become better at the game / self improvement in their class. The better you get, the higher that reward should be. (great vault imo does this well). You can argue about RNG but the core idea of this I think actually helps a large amount of the player base.

    Also when I say casual I mean people who:
    World quest
    level alts
    Collectors (gear, mounts, pets etc)
    raid normals / LFR.
    are scared to push M+ above a certain level.
    have anxiety being in groups because they don't know / don't want to ask about how to something.


    Notice I'm not talking about played time because these often take more time than clearing farm content weekly. (especially if you're world class and can reclear a raid in 1-3 hours.
    But you can also do these casual activities for under 3 hours and feel accomplished as well.

    Just wanted to chime in, I don't really have a particular side about this, both sides of the coin, elites and casuals can play this game for under 4 hours a week but also play this game for 30 hours a week but just do different shit.


    To answer the title:
    BFA was a loot piñata at the start and blizzard wanted to dial that back at the start of SL. They forgot people LOVE loot and get mad when it becomes too annoying, involved or just have horrible luck farming particular items. I also personally believe SL was rushed (even after delays). They put in the raids, dungeon, PVP stuff and covenants. Its not necessarily tailored to fight against casual players, its probably more of "they ran out of time" and are slowly adding what people are asking for.

    Blizzard is still a business and they like their bottom line / majority players.

    Valor for instance was specifically designed with the majority of players. Why do you think a +2 gives the same amount of valor as a +25 or higher. It's so causals (as well as non-casuals) have a way to increase their character power. Blizzard saw how much their numbers were dropping after the first two months and put something (not perfect) to band-aid the gearing scarcity.

    Done talking / ranting. Love you all have a nice evening.

  15. #55
    i can assure you that us "mean hardcore nolife players" dislike this covenant system just as much as you.
    ironically they made it so tedious to swap covenants, because they wouldnt want "casuals" to feel forced to swap covenants all the time, but just play the ONE they prefer.
    i would love to have all 4 covenant abilities/soulbinds as a talent row that i could pick the best one for every encounter.
    @blizz nobody likes your stupid system #PullTheRipcord
    Last edited by mojusk; 2021-04-23 at 08:15 AM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by LazuOG View Post
    Viable is such a watered down term. I can clear normal CN without choosing talent points, but it's fucking boring and annoying to be artificially weaker. Why should I play a specc that is gimped by default? It's not fun to know some arbitrary system is holding you back. Get that in your head.
    And how many specs are actually gimped down by the covenant system if not picking the right one? Like it was always said that Hunters are nothing without Nightfae, and now more and more become Kyrian and Venthyr, that already 60% of the top 100 Hunters are no longer Nightfae?

    Or Balance Druids, that all play with Nightfae/convoke? You know that Kyrian in raw DPS when played correctly goes higher, right? And Venthyr is theoratically the best with good gear?

    You have to get in your head, that it just looks like everything else is worse, because 90% of the people pick whatever stands in some guides. Yet if you look at the best players in the world you will see sometimes three different legendaries, coventants and more in the top 100 logs alone.

    The biggest DPS loss for casuals comes from misplays, not covenants.

  17. #57
    What exactly is a casual? Just using this word over and over again won't empower your flawed argument

    Switching a spec takes only 10 seconds, and there are so many hybrid classes, yet there is no practical way to utilize them,
    if one doesn't spend considerable amount of time and Shadowlands is even less forgiving in that regard since covenants came into the mix,
    and one spec can be vastly superior when using a certain one, while being less than optimal in other,
    so for example a healer spec of some class, can use a different covenant than a dps spec from the same character.
    If you are a casual, you shouldn't give a frick about your cov. besides the style. You can easily clear all M+15 DGs with a random one. Or kill some mythic bosses. Or grind up to a decent rating.

    Someone can't attend a raid and a healer/tank is missing. The guild has many hybrid classes in the group,
    but none are using it, because it is so gimped.
    So, let's say you got 20 Player and only 2 of them can tank or heal the raid on heroic? Seems like the people are lazy and/or bad.

    Ye, let's build a raid with 9 tanks, 9 healer and only 1 DPS. Smart move.

    If you are a casual, you don't instantly need a rank 4 legendary. Just build 3x rank 1 and upgrade them as you need them.


    When did "Casual" became the friendlier word for "bad, lazy and vocal crybaby but I'm entitled to everything"?

    "Hey random footballclub, I suck at football but please give a contract so I can earn a fortune even if I don't deserve it. Why? Playing with my friends is boring."
    "Hey random company, I don't fulfill the requirements but give me the job!"


    I play for 8-10 hours a week. Am I a Casual?

    I got two toons sitting at 225+ ilvl with 3-4 max rank legendaries.
    I cleared the raid on mythic weeks ago, still a casual?
    My shaman is on his way to 2.4k in his second arenabracket.

    Now what? I don't play much so I am a casual. Or am I not because I managed to see the "endgame"

  18. #58
    I'm extremely confused. The first half of your post is one of the biggest complaints from players at all levels, not just casual players. Being locked into one spec sucks.

    And the reason why fights don't require 8 tanks or 15 healers or whatever is because that's a miserable experience in terms of building a roster. Having a mostly standardized setup is basically required in order for organized raiding to function. You have around 25 players on a mythic roster typically, this lets you flex between 2-3 tanks, 3-5 healers and different DPS setups. Expecting guilds to pull 6 extra tanks out of their ass for one boss in a tier would be absurd.
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by entrust View Post
    in what world utilizing a hybrid class that has tank/dps/heal or 2xdps/heal or tank is min maxing?
    It is already in the game, I'm not a developer. It was this way from 2004 and basically is like a false advertisement of your class,
    it's like saying you will get 3 in 1, but you don't, and before you discredit me again, my point is:
    switching a spec is not a small feat,
    and if it was, a lot of smaller guilds could play their raids, mostly mythic difficulty would benefit,
    but also I could see it being good for any guild there is,
    no matter the level they are playing on.

    Switching spec used to cost 50g and some item adjustments,
    now it cost an arm and an leg,
    pros will always adapt, they no life this game, we all know it.

    and as many posters touched before:
    casuals bring the most revenue, it is a fact, that's not something one can discuss.

    Lastly, as a long time gamer, it really saddens me to see how this community became so elitist and entitled.
    People only care about themselves, and nobody cares about hanging out with them boys,
    like in the good ol' days.
    Nobody would suffer, if you could switch your spec on the fly,
    but as no lifers don't need it, they won't support it, because it would take from their elitist factor,

    honestly - l2p.
    Are you serious? Being able to actually play all your specs is literally one of the most common requests from high end players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    It's standard problem with Blizzard solving problem of 1% of VIP players, while destroying game for other 99%. Overall alt/spec-unfriendliness of current game is designed to prevent split-raids, that were performed during WF race. What % of players suffers from this problem? Several top professional (i.e. paid) guilds?
    That's literally not true. Spec unfriendliness has nothing to do with split raiding at all, and neither does alt unfriendliness. Both are explicitly because of (mostly casual) players wanting to feel special for committing to 1 spec/character rather than being at a disadvantage compared to people who put in the time and effort to learn all their character's specs or even multiple characters.

    Just think about it for half a second. How does locking you into a spec prevent or even hinder split raiding? The alts used for those are essentially throwaway characters, they don't need to be able to play more than 1 spec.
    Voidshuffle
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  20. #60
    Pit Lord Nutri's Avatar
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    Why is simple; because the hardcore players are the 1% and those numbers can't keep this game floating.

    If all the 'casuals' (or you know, players who just don't want to raid mythic, push +25's or get 2200 rating...) unsubbed once the endgame hits, the game doesn't make revenue and will die.

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