Why is end game tailored so much against the casual player?

[kaminaris]

BfA is the reason why WoW is sinking. Most left then, rightfully so. What you blame here first started heavily in BfA.

Your adorable expansion is reason numero uno.

And you only played WotLK on a private server. Stop fucking lying to win internet points.

You are really living in your delusion bubble. WoD is where it started sinking. Legion and BfA were attempts to fix leaks and now we are at full WoD mode again. Just when things got straighten out.

So what if I played on private server? Are you mad?

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When I no longer enjoy WoW I stop playing.

Ah the classic: https://www.quora.com/What-logical-f...t-like-it-move

It's the same nonsense as "if you don't like it, move":
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com...t-like-it-move

Just as if there are no better options

Then yes you are apologists as you are either fine with faulty product or forcing others to accept faults.

[Doffen]

You are really living in your delusion bubble. WoD is where it started sinking. Legion and BfA were attempts to fix leaks and now we are at full WoD mode again. Just when things got straighten out.

So what if I played on private server? Are you mad?

Legion was a success, WoW had a decline since cata and Legion revitalized it all. So no, even if WoD was bad, BfA just destroyed every good thing Legion did and made the game worse. Its funny how even classic vanilla boost didn't manage to get player numbers up at Legion levels.


And seeing you only played on a private server, you don't know how it really was in WotLK. If you think Shadowlands is dull on content, then you are in for a treat in WotLK. Funny how you say that Rhorle is an apologists when your favorite expansion that you defend with your life is BfA, where players left in droves and was massively criticized

[Osmeric]

Really because god damn it sure doesn't feel like it

I don't think current decisions are about maximizing subscribers. Which leads to an inevitable conclusion: it's about maximizing revenue. And if that's not tied to subscribers, it means the game must be very close to a F2P/P2W transition.

"Systemslands" makes sense in this light. The systems will provide sockets into which one can slot purchased power items (well, rented power).

Top players like to say they are the most devoted, the least likely to unsub, the most loyal. They are about to discover what that means to Activision-Blizzard: they are a resource to be monetized without mercy. Pony up the $$$ to stay competitive, sheepwhales.

No wonder so many old hands are bailing out at Blizzard.

[kaminaris]

Legion was a success, WoW had a decline since cata and Legion revitalized it all. So no, even if WoD was bad, BfA just destroyed every good thing Legion did and made the game worse. Its funny how even classic vanilla boost didn't manage to get player numbers up at Legion levels.


And seeing you only played on a private server, you don't know how it really was in WotLK. If you think Shadowlands is dull on content, then you are in for a treat in WotLK. Funny how you say that Rhorle is an apologists when your favorite expansion that you defend with your life is BfA, where players left in droves and was massively criticized

Legion was a "success" compared to WoD. Like relief after beating yourself with a baseball bat after 2 years. BfA is what legion should have been. Legion did not boost the amount of players. Game is at decline since Cata and will be, its the end of life period. The only question is the slope of decline. WoD was a nosedive and shadowlands seems to do this as well.

Legion was also massively criticized and players left in droves according to your standards. And yes wotlk will be much better experience than shadowlands, no doubt about it.

[Doffen]

Legion was a "success" compared to WoD. Like relief after beating yourself with a baseball bat after 2 years. BfA is what legion should have been. Legion did not boost the amount of players. Game is at decline since Cata and will be, its the end of life period. The only question is the slope of decline. WoD was a nosedive and shadowlands seems to do this as well.

Legion was also massively criticized and players left in droves according to your standards. And yes wotlk will be much better experience than shadowlands, no doubt about it.

But players didn't leave in droves and blizzard reported more players in the game since before WoD. Did BfA do that? No, blizzard stopped reporting increase in players after launch because people left, unlike Legion where it got increased. Second quarter of BfA they reported an expected decline in MAUs, then nothing before Classic came. Why is that you think? We all know why.

Legion was a success compared to all other expansions, not saying it was the best received one of all, but among the 4 last, by a LARGE margin.

[Kumorii]

This is 2021, people still care about streamers?

Curious, why is this a surprise? It's 2021,being a steamer is actually a legit job nowadays. Which evidently means people care enough so it can be a job to begin with.

[kaminaris]

But players didn't leave in droves and blizzard reported more players in the game since before WoD. Did BfA do that? No, blizzard stopped reporting increase in players after launch because people left, unlike Legion where it got increased. Second quarter of BfA they reported an expected decline in MAUs, then nothing before Classic came. Why is that you think? We all know why.

Legion was a success compared to all other expansions, not saying it was the best received one of all, but among the 4 last, by a LARGE margin.

Of course they did leave. Legion did not increase anything. It was better expansion than WoD and brought up some new stuff but overall nothing special. Those who complained back then left for good.

We know why, because new patch AND classic came out:

World of Warcraft saw strong engagement across both the Classic and modern game modes throughout
2020, and full year franchise net bookingsB grew 40% year-over-year, reaching the highest level in nearly a decade.

Or you suggest blizzard is lying to their investors?

[ElDoorO]

The MMO atmosphere WoW is taken from was not very casual friendly. In fact WoW was casual friendly and made friendly up until the end of Wrath and the release of the three ICC dungeons which wrecked havoc on LFD (which was new'ish at the time) because if you got "the wrong two" -- PoS or HoR, you were in for.. tough times without competent players.

The MASSIVE jump from WotLK to the "hard mode" Cataclysm, which had a dev once saying basically git gud or quit, had people quitting and guilds collapsing. They had to turn away from such "hardcoreness". The decrease in skill up through WotLK until the end and then the massive spike back into Cata was... stupidly painful and moronic on their part. They did -nothing- to teach people how to play properly. So you either spend your afternoon for a dungeon or two for a pathetic amount of badges.. or you just ran with guildies for your daily dungeon.

About the only thing not very player friendly is transportation. You spent an insane amount of the game... not actually playing the game.

Now their move away from average iLvl in PvP back to gear? Because they don't want skill to be king.

You see in most other games, players don't need real rewards to keep playing. The game is fun enough on its own right or is balanced enough (e.g. CS:GO, TF2, L4D, etc). I've learned many of the dev's haven't played very many games so their actual gaming experience is primarily limited to the game they work in - in this case WoW. They rarely seem to venture out of their comfort zone in that regard. This is also why the game is painfully slow to adopt new ideas that other games have had for years.

So the current dev's can't fathom new rewards or loot dynamics. It's simply not in their mental vocabulary. To them the dungeon itself shouldn't be fun. Getting the loot should be fun. This is, to many, WotLK dungeons were ideal. They were trivial AND rewarded a little bit of badges and loot. Badges could get you one of two items: Upgradeable and non-upgradeable. To use simple numbers, the non-upgradeable would be iLvl 100. The upgradeable would start at 85, go to 100, then 120. You got upgradeable if you raided. Otherwise, you got the static ones. This made it incredibly easy to develop a pool of raidable people with meh talent but simply enjoyed the game. This ruffled the feathers of the "hardcore" and they wanted those players, basically, gone. Ghostcrawler, one of the former dev's, among them. They got what they wanted, at a cost of many millions of subscriptions. Boasting, something like 13 million subscriptions and then ending reporting at... 7 million? I can't remember -- it was something bonkers. They gutted their player base instead of building it.

THINK MARK, THINK, HOW CAN YOU AFFORD A DEV TEAM IF YOU MAKE THE MAJORITY OF YOUR PLAYERS QUIT?

I would not have wanted to be the one to tell the quarterly reports people "don't worry, it's just a few million, it's fine". But that they did and pivoted to other games. HotS, for example, got briefly pretty popular. SC2: COOP was pretty nifty but they've basically abandoned SC2 now. That company has made some.. strange decisions.

Well.. since that point it's been slow going. A lot of the team has slowly left. I hear, with no proof and no IRL knowledge, that they are a nightmare to work for and (ab)use staff to insane points. All because "It's Blizzard and World of Warcraft!" -- so they ride on people's high about being "cool" rather than a "great place to work". Take that with a grain of salt though.

Then you have GW2 and FFXIV which if they changed one or two things, could absolutely dominate. GW2 is still holding on strong as is FFXIV. The singular most painful thing in FFXIV is the GCD. That's it. If you can get through that, you're golden. But if you can't... holy hell does it feel ... just agonizing. Oof. GW2 is still fun to jump in. They basically gutten the stuff I liked to do so I don't play it as much anymore. Some of the talent choices are considerably complicated, if that's your jam... it's not mine though.

So I mean, all things considered WoW isn't horrible compared to where it was, where it went, and its predecessors in the genre.

Besides transportation, from what I can tell RNG is the biggest complaint about WoW -- which IMO is a pretty valid complaint. Nothing like unlocking an almost entire vault to get... 80% of the same thing.. and the other 20% you already got. Or, ya know, you could get some stygia.. for... Torghast. Woo? So, I mean, they really need to fix their RNG problem... Because I'm finding several people complaining about "not getting a single piece of loot for weeks" (one of which meant that literally, allegedly, to which a GM had something mailed to them to 'fix' the issue, the rest.. I dunno.. probably hyperbole). but in any case, if you make the loot the end-game, you can't make it too rare.

But that does lead up to an interesting discussion: What's the ideal pace one should get loot in a patch of, say, 8 months. What should that graph look like? In a game where loot is the end-all-be-all.

[Doffen]

Of course they did leave. Legion did not increase anything. It was better expansion than WoD and brought up some new stuff but overall nothing special. Those who complained back then left for good.

We know why, because new patch AND classic came out:

World of Warcraft saw strong engagement across both the Classic and modern game modes throughout
2020, and full year franchise net bookingsB grew 40% year-over-year, reaching the highest level in nearly a decade.

Or you suggest blizzard is lying to their investors?

No, I don't suggest they lie about net bookings grew 40% more from the first year of BfA :P

Funny that you bolded something that doesn't tell how much players are playing the game. Not to mention thats two games, during Covid.

"World of Warcraft’s Shadowlands expansion continued to drive strong results following its record-setting release in November, with first quarter franchise net bookingsB growing sharply year-over-year."

So first quarter this year is better than last years quarter. So according to your logic, Shadowlands is more successful than BfA was, during a new patch(8.3) vs 3-5 months(9.0)

[kaminaris]

No, I don't suggest they lie about net bookings grew 40% more from the first year of BfA :P

Funny that you bolded something that doesn't tell how much players are playing the game. Not to mention thats two games, during Covid.

"World of Warcraft’s Shadowlands expansion continued to drive strong results following its record-setting release in November, with first quarter franchise net bookingsB growing sharply year-over-year."

So first quarter this year is better than last years quarter. So according to your logic, Shadowlands is more successful than BfA was, during a new patch(8.3) vs 3-5 months(8.0)

Yeah yeah, keep attributing everything to covid, just as if other games did not exist.
And you missed the first part

across both the Classic and modern game modes

Shadowlands doesn't say anything about engagement.

"strong results" is such a funny term. Release might have been "record setting", just as the nosedive that followed afterwards.

The thing is, you don't get 40% net bookings from store mount. 7% maybe. 40% no.

[ElDoorO]

But players didn't leave in droves and blizzard reported more players in the game since before WoD. Did BfA do that? No, blizzard stopped reporting increase in players after launch because people left, unlike Legion where it got increased. Second quarter of BfA they reported an expected decline in MAUs, then nothing before Classic came. Why is that you think? We all know why.

Legion was a success compared to all other expansions, not saying it was the best received one of all, but among the 4 last, by a LARGE margin.

I never paid attention to the numbers but if I had to speculate -- Legion was the culmination of literally the entirety of WoW... so, I mean.. yeah.

BfA and even Shadowlands are "new territory" so there's nothing to really build on. Nothing exciting to look forward to. Just vague misleading sentences so they can think they are smarter than you when it comes to writing. Honestly, feels like GoT and in its last season... but we'll see.

Personally I think WoW's only reason to be alive right now is its riding on its own success, of which it's ran out of original story from itself... so now it's in risky territory. And those original people are primarily gone, so... I'm not very confident it can keep the massive wave going. Not to say I think it'll die. It won't end with a bang.. but a quiet whisper.

Similar to in Cata when people said "just quit" and ... a lot did. The dev team realizing half their revenue just vaporized so it meant less content for the uber leet. It's a snowball effect -- and one you do not want to let grow out of control. WoW relies on the "group" to keep people playing. If the group falls apart, it's VERY difficult to find a new group that feels "as fun". If it wasn't for tokens and someone else's "paying" for my subscription, I wouldn't be playing right now either. Not because I can't afford it but because it's not worth the money.

[Kalisandra]

The only thing you have ever needed to catch up on is gear. Both Legion and BfA had great catch up mechanics for Artifact and Azerite power that you didn't have to try very hard to be good enough for the content. Renown is only needed for sou lbinds which is extremely fast to get caught up. You don't need to keep farming soul ash and only takes a few weeks for your first legendary.

If you are a returning player you don't need more then one. Tanks and Healers need more then one but just pick one spec until you get fully caught up. This has always been how it was in one form or another in WoW yet people somehow think it is different now. It is your perception and not the actual way the game functions. It is always the same game with a different name and number.

Renown and having to go through the covenant story to unlock the soulbinds. It's not super-long, but it's tedious and it'll get worse as one levels more alts and has to start repeating the same covenant line over and over again just to unlock the 2nd and 3rd soulbinds.

- - - Updated - - -

You do have available gear options to go higher. Make use of them rather then demanding ways that essentially give you everything for free. The difference between being entitled or not.

World questing and random BGs basically cap your gear out at i200. If you drop into a random BG when the rated PvPers and/or high mythic types are grinding honour, you're just meat for the grinder.

[rhorle]

It's the same nonsense as "if you don't like it, move":

No it isn't. No longer playing when you don't enjoy the game is similar to changing the TV channel when a show you no longer want to watch is on. The problem really is that you are suggesting people need to keep playing a video game that they no longer enjoy. If you don't like the game then stop playing. Stop paying. Stop discussing it on fan sites etc. It is okay to move on and find something else to bring you enjoyment.

- - - Updated - - -

Renown and having to go through the covenant story to unlock the soulbinds. It's not super-long, but it's tedious and it'll get worse as one levels more alts and has to start repeating the same covenant line over and over again just to unlock the 2nd and 3rd soulbinds.

It isn't super long. The campaign is nine chapters. Renown catch up is quick though has some randomness to it. Alts is irrelevant because you are choosing to play a second character which means you'll be repeating things. You know because you choose to do twice the effort. You also don't need 2nd or 3rd soulbinds because the first one you unlock is good enough for an alt. If you want to min/max your alt then it is even sillier to complain that you have to do the same stuff again.

World questing and random BGs basically cap your gear out at i200. If you drop into a random BG when the rated PvPers and/or high mythic types are grinding honour, you're just meat for the grinder.

You would be meat for the grinder regardless though. Because people with higher gear, the rated PvP or High Mythic types, tend to have better skill. Because you know they earned their gear. In which case that skill would trump equal gear anyways. There is nothing wrong with gear capping out at item level 200. That is the reward from the first 6 bosses of Normal Raiding. That is Mythic +6. That is unrated PvP gear.

[Kalisandra]

It isn't super long. The campaign is nine chapters. Renown catch up is quick though has some randomness to it. Alts is irrelevant because you are choosing to play a second character which means you'll be repeating things. You know because you choose to do twice the effort. You also don't need 2nd or 3rd soulbinds because the first one you unlock is good enough for an alt. If you want to min/max your alt then it is even sillier to complain that you have to do the same stuff again.

You assume one plays an alt for some reason that means it only needs crud gear and a possibly crud soulbind (depending on spec and covenant). Also that one of the later two soulbinds isn't the reason you want the alt. Or the the alt isn't to be one that needs decent kit. Or even if they're a replacement main.

No matter the reason, having to redo the Kyrian or Night Fae questlines (in particular, because a huge number of specs have them as the superior choice) over and over is going to be really tedious. In previous expansions from roughly LK on exactly which quest lines you used to level or gear, or which dungeons you chain ran for gear and/or rep was often simply a matter of personal preference. It wasn't until you were after that last piece of gear that dropped in just one place that your choices became constrained. Now, you have to do those damned quests. If you want renown fast you have to do the damned weeklies and callings. If you want a legendary you have to grind Torgast (and probably whilst in crap gear, too - fun).

You would be meat for the grinder regardless though. Because people with higher gear, the rated PvP or High Mythic types, tend to have better skill. Because you know they earned their gear. In which case that skill would trump equal gear anyways. There is nothing wrong with gear capping out at item level 200. That is the reward from the first 6 bosses of Normal Raiding. That is Mythic +6. That is unrated PvP gear.

And someone in even i213 gear has, according to Ion's +1% per ilevel about 14% more damage (because it's cumulative), and about the same more time to live (actually, it's more, because Stamina increases are bigger than they used to be and there's Vers which multiplies lifetime as well as DPS). That makes them about 1.3 times as 'good' as you are, just from gear. In i226 gear they just murder and they don't have to be good. When you're grinding honour to try and get some PvP gear, and you've got barely above 20K health, and some 40K+ health Rogue opens on you, they don't have to play well, they just burn you down.

[Jinpachi]

Really because god damn it sure doesn't feel like it

Blame that on shit-tier management and concept department.

[Doffen]

Yeah yeah, keep attributing everything to covid, just as if other games did not exist.
And you missed the first part



Shadowlands doesn't say anything about engagement.

"strong results" is such a funny term. Release might have been "record setting", just as the nosedive that followed afterwards.

The thing is, you don't get 40% net bookings from store mount. 7% maybe. 40% no.

Hm? We got Covid now after Shadowlands launched too. Other games? YEah, they exists, a year ago, and now. No one said anything about attributing everything to covid. And you are reading that statement wrong, it means both of them, together. So World of Warcraft, as a whole had grown(in net bookings) by 40%. They did not talk about engagement in the last quarter we just had?

"World of Warcraft saw strong reach, engagement and participation in value added services, along with a particularly high number of new players joining the community for the first time, boosted by initiatives to enhance the onboarding experience."

(Just mentioning that I don't think those numbers say anything about how popular the expansions are. Just using your logic against you.)

What is funny that you think that what blizzard say that doesn't fit your narrative are "funny", while does that fit, and use same kind of language, are valid statement. And who are talking about store mounts? As if net bookings are just store mounts.

[rhorle]

You assume one plays an alt for some reason that means it only needs crud gear and a possibly crud soulbind (depending on spec and covenant). Also that one of the later two soulbinds isn't the reason you want the alt. Or the the alt isn't to be one that needs decent kit. Or even if they're a replacement main.

Then you are not playing an alt but a second main. You can't complain about the work it requires to have a good second character if you are choosing to have that second character be fully outfitted with the best of everything. Of course it is going to take work. Why wouldn't it? Of course doing stuff multiple times would be tedious. Why wouldn't it be? In the past it wasn't a matter of preference. You had to repeat the same stuff with limited options of path. You are remembering past expantions incorrectly.

That makes them about 1.3 times as 'good' as you are, just from gear. In i226 gear they just murder and they don't have to be good. When you're grinding honour to try and get some PvP gear, and you've got barely above 20K health, and some 40K+ health Rogue opens on you, they don't have to play well, they just burn you down.

So get the same gear they did. You still won't be crippled in random PvP because you are at 213 vs their 226. At a disadvantage? Sure. But you would be anyways because of the different skill versus those that can and those that can not. When you are at the bottom of course people can burn you down. The same would be true of a person a few item levels above you as the one 26 item levels above you. You can still win though because battlegrounds are not about the individual death count. And you can grind honor in the ones that rely less on gear and more on simply zerging. Like the Epics. Isle of conquest rarely has a big PvP component.

Do the work. Gear up. Why is that suddenly a bad thing just because someone else can be better then you?

[Revamp Man]

Or you're having to compete against people who look a lot better than you. There isn't much my lower ilvl mage is going to be able to do when dozens of other higher ilvl/score mages are taking the same slots, even as something as simple as a +2.

I am entitled to speak with my wallet though, which I am doing, and I am entitled to speak my feelings on the matter until Blizz fixes the issues with the game. And yes, it is an issue when so many people are being left out and just want a path to progression.



Yeah, the victim blaming culture of this community is worrisome.

Ok tumblr

Make your own group and then invite the lowest ilvl applicants

[NineSpine]

The casual content is awful. The hardcore content is fine. The problem is that they make the hardcore players do the casual content and make the casual players do the hardcore content.

[Edward Wu]

The problem is that they make the hardcore players do the casual content

That's not a problem. Part of being hardcore is swallowing and accepting the entire shit on the plate Blizzard gives you. Anything less and you aren't hardcore. Eat the turd.