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  1. #821
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    That is not what the other person was asking for .They are simply asking for an alternative path for progression and one where the entry level is not decided by the player community.

    The want a progression at their own pace. Sure it will be slower. Sure it will behind players such as yourself. Why is that an issue?
    It already exists. What these fake casuals are asking for is gear being handed to them. It is. And these fake casuals are still up in arms.

    There is no content in the game where a single player is blocked from being a part of. Every part of the game allows a single player to create their own team to take on any challenge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  2. #822
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    It already exists. What these fake casuals are asking for is gear being handed to them. It is. And these fake casuals are still up in arms.

    There is no content in the game where a single player is blocked from being a part of. Every part of the game allows a single player to create their own team to take on any challenge.
    Gonna have to try harder with that bait monkeyboi.

  3. #823
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    When people that you have to rely on aren't inviting you, they are not available gear options.
    They are if you make your own group. Literally thousands of people do it every day.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    You're going to get crushed in random battlegrounds without a pathway to decent gear. Ilvl disparity in PvP is a real thing right now.
    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...sparity/958668
    How would you know? You don't play the game as you have often stated. Everything you have ever posted boils down to you ignoring facts and "I heard from someone somewhere..."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    If things were on an even footing, and we had ilvl brackets or ilvl caps or something similar, and I still lost, that would be totally different. I'd rather lose a skill based fight than a gear based one. At least if I lost due to a lack of skill, I still had a chance to win and I could actually learn something from my loss, and maybe come back to win again next time. If it's due to gear, then there is absolutely no hope of ever winning or ever getting better. What reason would I have to pay for a game knowing that?
    Considering ilvl.power relativity us the same as it has always been since WotLK, tell us why it is different now? Because it's not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  4. #824
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    They are if you make your own group. Literally thousands of people do it every day.


    How would you know? You don't play the game as you have often stated. Everything you have ever posted boils down to you ignoring facts and "I heard from someone somewhere..."


    Considering ilvl.power relativity us the same as it has always been since WotLK, tell us why it is different now? Because it's not.
    I have a blast on my 190ish alts zerging around bg's with the group. I tend to avoid grabbing the flag, as there is typically a better geared player there specifically to carry the flag, but other than that, its no different. And although i avoid it, i have carried the flag / orb many times and had no issue at all. Its a made up "problem", which is a shame, because SL has enough genuine problems without people who have not even purchased or played the expansion trying to tell those who actively play it how they are wrong about the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  5. #825
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Do yourself a favor and quit, some people are simply unable to understand why ship is sinking and their Stockholm syndrome is kicking in. So they are apologizing every shit decision blizzard is making saying nonsense like "its fine", "just make your own group", "it was always like this", "they will fix it in the future".

    Thats the direction blizzard is heading, hamstrings, annoyances, player engagment metric game design, rat race and esports.

    On the bright side hopefully wotlk is coming out after tbc.
    It really is a pity, if these people were smart they wouldn't be defending the status quo, the ridiculous requirements needed for players to enter the endgame, and the general elitism and toxicity so pervasive throughout the game and community. We can see the result with players leaving by the droves. They should be fighting to keep folks subscribed, because they pay for their content too. What is the game going to look like in the near future when everyone is gone but Ion and the 20 or so folks left who love his exclusive and elitist game?

    I hope they liked ToGC in Wrath.

  6. #826
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinpachi View Post
    TL;DR. They don't make Warcraft for niche groups. They make it to make money for their investors. Every decision is based on whether it will keep or add new subscribers.
    Really because god damn it sure doesn't feel like it
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #827
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    It really is a pity, if these people were smart they wouldn't be defending the status quo, the ridiculous requirements needed for players to enter the endgame.
    It hasn't been this fast and easy since WoD to enter the end game.

  8. #828
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    What is the game going to look like in the near future when everyone is gone but Ion and the 20 or so folks left who love his exclusive and elitist game?
    Why is it that you hold so much hate for a game you seem to so desperately want to play? It clearly isn't something for you anymore but that doesn't mean you hold all the answers and everything you demand the game to be is actually healthy or right for the game. If people were smart we wouldn't have so many ex-players trying to dictate how others currently play. Because the smart thing to do when you no longer enjoy something is to stop doing that something and find another thing to do.

    There is toxicity in the community but it comes just as much from ex-players like yourself as it does from idiots and mean current players. Everything about the game this expansion has reduced the requirements to enter the end game. You can get an average item level of normal raids with out stepping foot in them. You can gear through raids, Mythic+, or Rated PvP. There are plenty of entry points if you are only willing to do them.

    Even the third party tools are easy for anyone to make use of. You can find how to play a class, the stats you need, the talents, the rotations, the legendaries, the best covenant, best conduits, etc all on Wowhead, Icy veins or other guide sites. There are tools like Askmrrobot that can sim stuff for you with an easy to use gui.

    You can even get a addon that gives a one button rotation for simplicity.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-05-09 at 06:49 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #829
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    the ridiculous requirements needed for players to enter the endgame
    It is not only faster, but requires less effort and time than ever before to obtain an ilvl equal to normal raid gear. I find your comment extremely ironic, considering you have stated numerous times you do not want to do any group content at all, other than random bgs, which have no requirement for entry. This one comment shows how extremely dishonest you are being, more than anything else you have said. You are complaining about a "problem" that does not exist, in a game you DO NOT OWN AND HAVE NEVER PLAYED.

    You can obtain gear more powerful than ever before, in less time than ever before, and yet you, someone who has not stepped foot into the SL, are making the false claim that it is in some way harder...
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  10. #830
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Actualy it is developers fault if way they desing content makes you ignore higher difficulties. If you give players 100% of wow content on silver plate trough easy mods, lfr, lfg, etc. You cant expect them to care about carrot. Becouse that carrot is nothing but better gear what have no purpose but to make you stronger fot sake of getting stronger.

    Back in Vannila and TBC you wanted to be stronger to defeated harder content. Not higher difficulty of same content but actual harder new content with new bosses, new lore in completly new raid. Thats major difference between past and current sructure of wow content.
    There was a good point made recently- that Devs don't go into work thinking "lets fuck players today casuals need all the toys" but its often handed down by somebody like ION who says "oh thats a great idea, but how's it work for casuals change it like this!"
    So i can't really blame devs and we shouldn't really -- we should blame those in charge.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by entrust View Post
    Hi.
    I've been playing casually since some events in my life forced me to not take the game so serious,
    so I've been in some less organized groups who still raid some mythic and with my experience from some competitive gaming I came into some strange conclusions.

    Switching a spec takes only 10 seconds, and there are so many hybrid classes, yet there is no practical way to utilize them,
    if one doesn't spend considerable amount of time and Shadowlands is even less forgiving in that regard since covenants came into the mix,
    and one spec can be vastly superior when using a certain one, while being less than optimal in other,
    so for example a healer spec of some class, can use a different covenant than a dps spec from the same character.

    Switching a covenant can be done once a week, and one has to also do some chores on top of it,
    farming a 235ilvl legend takes approximately 5 weeks. 5250/1140 Soul Ash per week
    there is also farming Stygia, which I wouldn't personally say is that bad in itself, but can be really tiring, if you want to do it on multiple toons.

    Now, I brought the casual player argument because, it seems to me like the ones who really suffer from this IMO stupid design choice,
    are the guilds on the lower end. Someone can't attend a raid and a healer/tank is missing. The guild has many hybrid classes in the group,
    but none are using it, because it is so gimped.
    I've noticed that a lot of players wouldn't mind to switch it here and there, even though they wouldn't want to stay that role full time,
    but there is really little to no incentive to even try it.
    Lower end guilds would benefit from it, even if it was: 'John could you heal today, so we could raid?'
    and I don't think higher end ones would suffer.

    Then there is another design choice that the developers set on, and it seems it will stay this way forever: 2 tanks, mostly 4-5 healers, rest dps.
    Most of these fights for tanks are: switch[taunt] after X amount of stacks, that's it - done; or switch after Y ability.

    I got 2 characters, one is a Monk who can play every role, and 2nd is a Mage who is a beast when it comes to dps. I personally would find it really cool if a certain encounter demanded for example 5 tanks, other one 8-10 healers, another 15 dps with 1 tank, and I would be able to fluidly change my spec on my hybrid class, but I cannot do it, as it's a huge time sink. I already am playing Brew with my friends in M+ and WW on raids, and I'd love to chill on MW sometimes, but it's impossible to imagine.
    Players who cannot fathom not being somewhere around the top of 'Damage Done' dps meter can stay pure dps.

    I doubt it will change the way things are, but I just wanted to see how other players feel about it.

    EDIT: Since so many people miss the point: by casual I don't mean bad, I mean players who don't spend their whole life on the game, and have limited time, but still want to accomplish something more than farming achievements/mounts etc.
    Blizzard are making bad choices at the moment they're making systems that need so much double checking and redesign over and over again that balancing classes and making sure hybird classes just don't get the focus at all, and i'm seeing a lot of "Dev" hate i admit i used to be just like this - but most of the time it isn't Dev's making these choices.. just people like ION - who call the shots tell the devs "oh no you gotta do this, or that."
    Make sure if you still play your voice is heard if it matters to you, Mine wasn't.
    https://simplearmory.com/#/us/aman't...ectable/mounts
    BFA is another failure on Blizzard for leaving out information yet again despite promising communication with players while Azerite armor is an unfun system forced onto us to keep us grinding.

  11. #831
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Gonna have to try harder with that bait monkeyboi.
    Could you please not.disrespect me by not using my name properly. It is a simple courtesy that is expected in civilized society.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  12. #832
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    As it stands, there is no hope of getting better gear when you don't have any friends, can't find folks to play with for arena that won't bail on you after a single loss, and won't invite you to any content. When a player has to deal with all of this to get into the higher end.

    You honestly don't see this as a problem? I'm only asking for a chance, to be able to play the game when things are stacked so heavily against me. Right now I am not paying for the game, but as someone who genuinely loved WoW, I would love to have a reason to come back. Right now that is a terrifying prospect, knowing what would be in store for me.
    As long as this wonderful community keeps pretending M+0, Normal raids, RBGs, arenas, are literally the same thing as LFD, LFR and random BGs, you'll be screaming in the void.

    I can't speak for PvP but as a strictly queue player, I used to have a decent progression path that could keep me subscribed for months. Why should I, a solo DPS player, spend so much time browsing the group finder when I know people are going to veto my applications because I'm so low on the totem pole of gear and desirability? This game opened up so much for me in 3.3.3 when I could click a button and get in a dungeon without being judged and amass epic gear little by little doing stressfree content I liked. I honestly do not understand why the game ever got rid of badge/Justice/Valor vendors and gear slowly attainable by people like me.

    Now people are telling me I should be happy because the game is throwing the welfare gear straight at me in a matter of a week or two of hitting max level. I never set foot in the Heroic dungeons or LFRs I used to run because they're dead on arrival. I just queue for the final boss to complete my story quest and get the nice rep bonus, and that's it. There's no incentive to run them now that I'm so graciously given gear that makes them obsolete. I look back fondly on late Legion solely because of Mage Tower (which was so universally loved because it was entirely attainable by solo casual scrubs like me), but it's actually Legion that started nailing the coffin when it started randomly giving me Mythic shit for crushing nuts and chasing squirrels while telling me that Balance of Power – the quest chain that was functionally closest to the Legendary cloak/ring quest chains I could do – wasn't for my LFR hero ass. As a result, I never bothered with Emerald Nightmare or the Suramar raid. And yet I still know Mogu'shan Vaults, Terrace of Eternal Spring and Throne of Thunder by heart. This is a fucking problem.

    Instead, I hit the item level wall nearly instantly and Ion pats me on my lil casual head and tells me "congratulations! now you can run the real content! " and dude, no I won't. I never did. Gave it a feeble try in TBC, decided it was either too long or too stressful, and it's just been made worse by the cesspool that is the Group Finder. I think I'll go play that other MMO that slowly drip-feeds me raid level gear at the end of a tier for running daily Heroics and LFR instead. At some point in this thread's absurdly long sister thread, somebody called it "World of Communism" and I found that hilarious. I'll be over there, loudly erupting into The Internationale.

  13. #833
    As the leaker of Legion and the survivor of now 4 heart attacks and prostate cancer I can say this about Casual WoW: It sucks in the current state. 9.1 should bring some harmony to casuals but not enough. I fully expect 9.2 to be casual and alt friendly, as have all late expansion patches recently.

    I can probably attribute 1 of those heart attacks to Blizzard attorney Rod Rosenstein but it won't stick. Anyways, WoW will eventually cater to Mythic+ no-lifers and raiders, as usual. Casuals and alt fiends such as myself will be a thing of the past.

  14. #834
    Quote Originally Posted by Rappy28 View Post
    As long as this wonderful community keeps pretending M+0, Normal raids, RBGs, arenas, are literally the same thing as LFD, LFR and random BGs, you'll be screaming in the void.

    I can't speak for PvP but as a strictly queue player, I used to have a decent progression path that could keep me subscribed for months. Why should I, a solo DPS player, spend so much time browsing the group finder when I know people are going to veto my applications because I'm so low on the totem pole of gear and desirability? This game opened up so much for me in 3.3.3 when I could click a button and get in a dungeon without being judged and amass epic gear little by little doing stressfree content I liked. I honestly do not understand why the game ever got rid of badge/Justice/Valor vendors and gear slowly attainable by people like me.

    Now people are telling me I should be happy because the game is throwing the welfare gear straight at me in a matter of a week or two of hitting max level. I never set foot in the Heroic dungeons or LFRs I used to run because they're dead on arrival. I just queue for the final boss to complete my story quest and get the nice rep bonus, and that's it. There's no incentive to run them now that I'm so graciously given gear that makes them obsolete. I look back fondly on late Legion solely because of Mage Tower (which was so universally loved because it was entirely attainable by solo casual scrubs like me), but it's actually Legion that started nailing the coffin when it started randomly giving me Mythic shit for crushing nuts and chasing squirrels while telling me that Balance of Power – the quest chain that was functionally closest to the Legendary cloak/ring quest chains I could do – wasn't for my LFR hero ass. As a result, I never bothered with Emerald Nightmare or the Suramar raid. And yet I still know Mogu'shan Vaults, Terrace of Eternal Spring and Throne of Thunder by heart. This is a fucking problem.

    Instead, I hit the item level wall nearly instantly and Ion pats me on my lil casual head and tells me "congratulations! now you can run the real content! " and dude, no I won't. I never did. Gave it a feeble try in TBC, decided it was either too long or too stressful, and it's just been made worse by the cesspool that is the Group Finder. I think I'll go play that other MMO that slowly drip-feeds me raid level gear at the end of a tier for running daily Heroics and LFR instead. At some point in this thread's absurdly long sister thread, somebody called it "World of Communism" and I found that hilarious. I'll be over there, loudly erupting into The Internationale.
    At last. Someone who is ultra casual that is making demands that make sense.

    I completely agree with you. If you don't want to or can't handle m+ then you are literally stranded. You're not asking for gear you don't deserve, you're asking for gear you do deserve but not all at once.

    Personally, I am in two minds about how good campaign gear is. I hate that normal raids are basically a waste of my time. I hate that there are no spamable upgrades unless you're doing M 7s or higher. Sometimes I would rather do a couple of heroic dungeons just for the hell of it on my dirty dirty alts but these alts already out gear heroic within 5 hours of 60. This is the real problem. They need to have queueable content that is a bit harder than heroic that does ultimately give you normal raid level gear. Something along the line of how PvP works right now. Want better? Organized group content.

    A good start would be to have an untimed mythic 5 level dungeons that are queable. They drop 1 piece of gear and some currency. Make it something like 50.dungeons gets you a complete 15 piece set. Casual content that'll take a couple of months for a casual to complete. Even throw in a vault option that's a difficulty higher. I don't care, it's a piece a week.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  15. #835
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    At last. Someone who is ultra casual that is making demands that make sense.

    I completely agree with you. If you don't want to or can't handle m+ then you are literally stranded. You're not asking for gear you don't deserve, you're asking for gear you do deserve but not all at once.

    Personally, I am in two minds about how good campaign gear is. I hate that normal raids are basically a waste of my time. I hate that there are no spamable upgrades unless you're doing M 7s or higher. Sometimes I would rather do a couple of heroic dungeons just for the hell of it on my dirty dirty alts but these alts already out gear heroic within 5 hours of 60. This is the real problem. They need to have queueable content that is a bit harder than heroic that does ultimately give you normal raid level gear. Something along the line of how PvP works right now. Want better? Organized group content.

    A good start would be to have an untimed mythic 5 level dungeons that are queable. They drop 1 piece of gear and some currency. Make it something like 50.dungeons gets you a complete 15 piece set. Casual content that'll take a couple of months for a casual to complete. Even throw in a vault option that's a difficulty higher. I don't care, it's a piece a week.
    But the question is, are we sure that so called casuals would like to endlessly spam dungeon only and nothing else to get gear?

    I mean, they are not “random” like Diablo dungeons. At least random bgs have the human factor and they are all different, but dungeons? Same 8 dungeons, same pulls, same enemies, same bosses: I don’t know.

  16. #836
    Because if you want to play a casual carebear MMO you should go play GW2 or FFXIV, WoW has competitive endgame.

  17. #837
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The only thing you have ever needed to catch up on is gear. Both Legion and BfA had great catch up mechanics for Artifact and Azerite power that you didn't have to try very hard to be good enough for the content. Renown is only needed for sou lbinds which is extremely fast to get caught up. You don't need to keep farming soul ash and only takes a few weeks for your first legendary.

    If you are a returning player you don't need more then one. Tanks and Healers need more then one but just pick one spec until you get fully caught up. This has always been how it was in one form or another in WoW yet people somehow think it is different now. It is your perception and not the actual way the game functions. It is always the same game with a different name and number.
    I didn't say they were "difficult" or asked for a certain level of skill to acquire. They just take TIME. A level of time that feels out of place given the rapid speed at which you do everything else in WoW.

    In the meanwhile, a player hits 60 within the first week of playing the game. Starts doing endgame content, and gets booted from every single group repeatedly because their gear is unacceptable, they have no legendary, and the renown is trickling in. Just boot after boot after boot from these groups. Can't get invited to a group finder raid. Can't do much of anything.

    The point is that even a 2-3 week SYSTEMS catch up (As in, NOT gear), doesn't feel good. In that time a player could have so many negative experiences they don't continue playing. And likely - that's what's happening as the game struggles to attract fresh blood and retain those players. So much so that Blizzard redesigned the leveling experience multiple times over, and it's still not effective.

    It ain't the leveling.

  18. #838
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    BfA is the reason why WoW is sinking. Most left then, rightfully so. What you blame here first started heavily in BfA.

    Your adorable expansion is reason numero uno.

    And you only played WotLK on a private server. Stop fucking lying to win internet points.
    You are really living in your delusion bubble. WoD is where it started sinking. Legion and BfA were attempts to fix leaks and now we are at full WoD mode again. Just when things got straighten out.

    So what if I played on private server? Are you mad?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    When I no longer enjoy WoW I stop playing.
    Ah the classic: https://www.quora.com/What-logical-f...t-like-it-move

    It's the same nonsense as "if you don't like it, move":
    https://philosophy.stackexchange.com...t-like-it-move

    Just as if there are no better options

    Then yes you are apologists as you are either fine with faulty product or forcing others to accept faults.
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion > ... > Eating Dust > .... > SL
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    Legendaries were such a great system I had them all before blizz lifted softcap

  19. #839
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You are really living in your delusion bubble. WoD is where it started sinking. Legion and BfA were attempts to fix leaks and now we are at full WoD mode again. Just when things got straighten out.

    So what if I played on private server? Are you mad?
    Legion was a success, WoW had a decline since cata and Legion revitalized it all. So no, even if WoD was bad, BfA just destroyed every good thing Legion did and made the game worse. Its funny how even classic vanilla boost didn't manage to get player numbers up at Legion levels.


    And seeing you only played on a private server, you don't know how it really was in WotLK. If you think Shadowlands is dull on content, then you are in for a treat in WotLK. Funny how you say that Rhorle is an apologists when your favorite expansion that you defend with your life is BfA, where players left in droves and was massively criticized
    Last edited by Doffen; 2021-05-09 at 01:12 PM.

  20. #840
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Really because god damn it sure doesn't feel like it
    I don't think current decisions are about maximizing subscribers. Which leads to an inevitable conclusion: it's about maximizing revenue. And if that's not tied to subscribers, it means the game must be very close to a F2P/P2W transition.

    "Systemslands" makes sense in this light. The systems will provide sockets into which one can slot purchased power items (well, rented power).

    Top players like to say they are the most devoted, the least likely to unsub, the most loyal. They are about to discover what that means to Activision-Blizzard: they are a resource to be monetized without mercy. Pony up the $$$ to stay competitive, sheepwhales.

    No wonder so many old hands are bailing out at Blizzard.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences." -- Robert Louis Stevenson
    If you didn't get your COVID shot it's probably too late now, you fool.

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