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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Lack of gear progression, gated valor, no flying, insane anima requirement, boreghast turning out not fun nor rewarding, lack of casual content etc. But a damned offspec? No.

    For hardcore crowd it might not be fully raid or die but some annoying stuff is there too. Main issue for cauals is lack of progression probably. Unless someone counts farming gold and buying boosts a "viable progression path".
    heres what i dont get
    what do casual players do??
    normal raid is a progression path
    lfr is a progression path
    m+ is a progression patch
    is it collecting anima rewards??

    is the progression determined by the gear it gives and if so is that progression unviable due to the fact it doesnt reward the best gear??

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Lack of gear progression, gated valor, no flying, insane anima requirement, boreghast turning out not fun nor rewarding, lack of casual content etc. But a damned offspec? No.

    For hardcore crowd it might not be fully raid or die but some annoying stuff is there too. Main issue for cauals is lack of progression probably. Unless someone counts farming gold and buying boosts a "viable progression path".
    Gear Progression has never existed for casuals if they refuse to participate in harder content. You are simply not rewarded for doing nothing and that is completely fine and right. Earn your gear like everyone else or play a game that does not have gear. What even is this argument? "I don't wanna do the real content, but I want the rewards for it!!"

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Gear Progression has never existed for casuals if they refuse to participate in harder content. You are simply not rewarded for doing nothing and that is completely fine and right. Earn your gear like everyone else or play a game that does not have gear. What even is this argument? "I don't wanna do the real content, but I want the rewards for it!!"
    there is gear progression for the casual players
    its the covenant gear sets
    if that isnt enough then there are the weekly quests that give normal ilvl or the one that gives heroic


    if the progression is gear based then getting a gear set with set bonuses should be enough....but its not the best gear so it is not good enough

  4. #104
    I still don't know who "casuals" are and what they even want. WoW is the least meritocratic it has ever been when the easiest way to get loot is casual RBGs and the great vault. I think the problem is exactly the opposite; WoW isn't meritocratic enough and blizzard are scared to design challenging content because of all the baddies crying on forums. I hoped torghast would be like the mage tower but all the crying from baddies turned it into a joke.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    I am casual, because I can casually play, but when I play I do the best I can.
    Okay, so what's the problem? "The best you can do" in the case of wanting to play multiple specs as a casual just means that you're playing one spec with a suboptimal covenant choice and no or a low itemlevel legendary.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Dastreus View Post
    Because elitists cry really hard anytime they aren't special snowflakes.
    Mostly casuals whining. The actual high end deal with it and move on.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by entrust View Post
    Hi.
    I've been playing casually since some events in my life forced me to not take the game so serious,
    so I've been in some less organized groups who still raid some mythic and with my experience from some competitive gaming I came into some strange conclusions.

    Switching a spec takes only 10 seconds, and there are so many hybrid classes, yet there is no practical way to utilize them,
    if one doesn't spend considerable amount of time and Shadowlands is even less forgiving in that regard since covenants came into the mix,
    and one spec can be vastly superior when using a certain one, while being less than optimal in other,
    so for example a healer spec of some class, can use a different covenant than a dps spec from the same character.

    Switching a covenant can be done once a week, and one has to also do some chores on top of it,
    farming a 235ilvl legend takes approximately 5 weeks. 5250/1140 Soul Ash per week
    there is also farming Stygia, which I wouldn't personally say is that bad in itself, but can be really tiring, if you want to do it on multiple toons.

    Now, I brought the casual player argument because, it seems to me like the ones who really suffer from this IMO stupid design choice,
    are the guilds on the lower end. Someone can't attend a raid and a healer/tank is missing. The guild has many hybrid classes in the group,
    but none are using it, because it is so gimped.
    I've noticed that a lot of players wouldn't mind to switch it here and there, even though they wouldn't want to stay that role full time,
    but there is really little to no incentive to even try it.
    Lower end guilds would benefit from it, even if it was: 'John could you heal today, so we could raid?'
    and I don't think higher end ones would suffer.

    Then there is another design choice that the developers set on, and it seems it will stay this way forever: 2 tanks, mostly 4-5 healers, rest dps.
    Most of these fights for tanks are: switch[taunt] after X amount of stacks, that's it - done; or switch after Y ability.

    I got 2 characters, one is a Monk who can play every role, and 2nd is a Mage who is a beast when it comes to dps. I personally would find it really cool if a certain encounter demanded for example 5 tanks, other one 8-10 healers, another 15 dps with 1 tank, and I would be able to fluidly change my spec on my hybrid class, but I cannot do it, as it's a huge time sink. I already am playing Brew with my friends in M+ and WW on raids, and I'd love to chill on MW sometimes, but it's impossible to imagine.
    Players who cannot fathom not being somewhere around the top of 'Damage Done' dps meter can stay pure dps.

    I doubt it will change the way things are, but I just wanted to see how other players feel about it.
    Uhhh, nope.


    What do you mean, there is no "practical way" to utilize off-specs? You literally need 2 trinkets, 1 weapon, and 1 legendary to swap specs. And even that is not required in many cases, like mage.

    The legendary part is also BS. You do not need more than the 190 piece to play a spec as a casual player. For my char, the differnce between 190 and 235 piece is 100 dps.

    Farming stygia ..... just lol. For my char, the differnce between 0 and 5 sockets in 110 dps.

    In both cases, this is less than 2%. So you are complaining about that a person that does his 1hrs weekly torghast and 30 min maw dailies is less than 4% more powerful than you.

    These things are minor gains for huge time investments for the people that care about that stuff.

    What is your proposal? Remove endgame progression, and have all characters reach their max power after 2 weeks of world quests?

    And then you present the most casual unfriendly thing, that basically every raid member needs to be proficient in their offspecs. Which is for some reason, more reasonable than doing torghast for 1hr each week....

    What the fuck is this argument, holy shit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dastreus View Post
    Because elitists cry really hard anytime they aren't special snowflakes.
    That is your answer to a casual crying about 1hrs of torghast for 5 weeks. The irony...

  8. #108
    While I agree that covenants should be swappable I have to say that I tanked everything up to mythic Sire pre-nerf with a dps lego, wrong covenant and no tank trinkets. It was fine with a bit of struggle on Slg an Sire. So the argument that you need optimal characters for casual play, especially now post-nerf is really wanting your cake and eating it too.

  9. #109
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    The problem as I see it mandatory grinds invented by people who didn't have artistic value in mind as an answer to dropping subs from people stating they had nothing to do. The game was then made to keep you in a repeating sunken cost fallacy with neverending grinds, that will hopefully keep you motivated/paying. This is an illusion of content without any real staying power. A neverending well of salt-water to keep you thirsty.

    This is not about elitists vs casuals, this is about Bliz.. Activision not having respect for customers they paid for. Never forget, Blizzard is dead. Its corpse being puppeteered by uncaring fatcats.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    Well. Casuals are a majority of the playerbase. The minority are raiding mythic and doing high keys. The casuals don't want to or have the ability to commit to the time it takes to do such things. The raiding/m+ minority offers boosts. The majority of the casuals can, if they want, buy a token or two to get some boosts to progress their characters, if they wish.

    Money in the bank.

    Also there's the whole deal with a lot of casuals having little to no interests in dungeons or raids for that matter.
    Exactly, it is totally fine to be a casual mythic raider, you just wont be a world first raider. There are plenty of people that get top 500 CE results with 20 hrs or less per week on average. Which is not that much for competing at that level. You can get ATOC with much less. Like literally showing up to raids and play 2 hrs on top each week.

  11. #111
    because end game of a casual player and true end game must be vastly different.
    zug zug

    what is it paladin, one zug is not enough for ya?

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfNone View Post
    lore should be voluntary to the game. not obligatory.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post

    If valor was there from the start and wasn't capped, we'd spend the entire first week or 2 of the tier inside M+ farming a full set of SLG/Denathrius heroic ilevel gear. That's bad gameplay and destroys gear progression, because WoW's gear progression has always been tied to weekly lockouts (less so in Legion/BfA because they had WF/TF to destroy gear progression)
    People keep comparing valor to honor, but that's not the actual comparison. It's end of dungeon chest + valor vs honor + conquest. One weekly capped component and one uncapped component.

    Gearing is already extremely quick, especially this tier with 4 BoEs and PvP gear to fill gaps.
    That is why I said that cap protects high end players from gaming to death, but it's very limiting from casual perspective, as with a cap you can't even upgrade your weapon from bottom to the top.
    Gearing this expansion is faster for high end players only. Casuals don't go around doing high end rated pvp, raid and m+ while purchasing boes.

    I am biased against gear progression anyway as I progress content rather than gear, but i'm a minority so w/e.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    That's a garbage "argument". Telling people to "just quit" doesn't fix anything. People should discuss their problems with the way the game currently functions, otherwise Blizzard lacks a vital piece of feedback. Data can only do so much, and it seems like they're massively overusing data and underusing actual feedback
    The elephant in the room is whether these "problems" actually exist or are simply the result of people being mad the game isn't being tailored to them? Look at classic and all the "this isn't real <insert content (MC, AV, Naxx, etc here) because they used 1.12 instead of <insert patch number here>". Or the flying threads that run the gamut from remove it forever to let it be available as soon as we hit cap and everything in between.

    Because with a player base this diverse whenever a person gets on a soapbox and goes "All they need to do to fix the game is do X, it's easy, I could do it in my sleep" kind of armchair dev'ing there's going to be someone with the exact opposite opinion.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  14. #114
    Because you giving them your time and money

    If the majority of money is made by casual players as people claim and they making alot of money, seems like casuals are fine with it, no?

    Also i cant literally cant imagine any time there is more to do for a casual player than now

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    No. That is what a few bunch of you assume.

    I am casual, because I can casually play, but when I play I do the best I can.

    Casual is usually associated with unskilled, and that is quite far from reality. A casual player might be better than someone raiding 3 times a week.
    I agree with you that casual is not a statement of skill. I just extended your definition of casual and included not only a time component like you did, but also an attitude component. You can be a hardcore player and only raid 3 nights a week and you also can be a casual that plays each day.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    I agree with you that casual is not a statement of skill. I just extended your definition of casual and included not only a time component like you did, but also an attitude component. You can be a hardcore player and only raid 3 nights a week and you also can be a casual that plays each day.
    I mean there is also just the simple math that most of the time people that play more are getting better at the game, right. Also the kind of activity matters

    Some 12 hour turbo NEET that complains about how everything is against casuals that only farms mount all days is gonna be worse than the player at echo that practices arena every 4 hours everyday

  17. #117
    High end mythic players probably don't give a shit about what Blizzard does for the casuals unless it requires them to run the same content (competitive trinkets in LFR that forces them to run that)

    It's usually midcores throwing a huge bitchfit because they need something to feed their ego but they aren't too good for people to actually consider them.. well, good.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    The "majority" possibly, but they don't bring in the most revenue.
    The casual crowd is the largest source of actual revenue paid to Blizzard. The referenced 'hardcore' players aren't the ones buying tokens for gold to buy boosts/store stuff. It's the monthly subscriptions and token buying of the 'casual' crowd that keeps the servers plugged in at Blizz, not the tiny fraction of the player base that does M20+ and Mythic raiders.
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries.

  19. #119
    I believe the majority always hated the elits people and more and more.

    They are the minority anyway, just shit on them it will make you feel better. Atleast I do.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    High end mythic players probably don't give a shit about what Blizzard does for the casuals unless it requires them to run the same content (competitive trinkets in LFR that forces them to run that)

    It's usually midcores throwing a huge bitchfit because they need something to feed their ego but they aren't too good for people to actually consider them.. well, good.
    This, actually good people tend not to need affirmation that they're good, they can see it in the results of whatever they do.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

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