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  1. #161
    Here we go again with "casual". If you used to be hardcore and spend a whole lot of time ingame but just cannot commit to a schedule anymore, you are not a casual. Casual denotes those who are not engaged in ANY of the 3 main endgame activities: raiding, M+, Rated pvp.
    So if you want to do any of this, you cannot be casual about it. Because they are gear-based and group-based so they require constant progression until you reach an objective.
    To forego progression, you would need to change how the game works. Make gear not matter. In a FPS like manner, where you log in play some matches, not log in months and still be the same.
    So as crap as it sounds, this is why we play wow. We sub for months upon months and progress. Those who don't spend that time, do not progress as fast. It is probably time for solo games or fps games if the core progression mantra of an mmo is not something that fits anymore. Because if you removed all the progression that requires you to invest time, all those who play it for this aspect will stop playing.
    Last edited by Loveliest; 2021-04-23 at 02:37 PM.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightgloom View Post
    Hmm, I am a little puzzled with the notion of being a casual player but wanting to micromanage your character to switch covenants to be able to play another spec. I really dont think the difference is that huge especially if you're not pushing the more difficult & endgame content.
    it's a sad feedback loop.

    see, most people are pretty dumb. on top of being pretty dumb, they also lack any ability to tell the difference between observable reality and a preconceived notion of what they think reality is supposed to be.

    so what happens is this:
    1. person is a casual player but interested and involved enough to be aware that forums and icy-veins exist.
    2. person reads the forums and icy-veins and is told repeatedly that only covenant X is viable for Y spec.
    3. person concludes any covenant but X will make your toon literally catch on fire and explode.

    you've got this immense swath of players too dumb to grasp that the minutia of upper end mix/maxing has absolutely nothing to do with running a +5 or pugging a normal difficulty raid 6 months after the tier came out.

    people in these threads freak out about covenant switching because of the fact they've been repeatedly told to blindly follow the instructions of guides and discord servers that are dedicated solely to a type of gameplay that in no way represents what these people are doing, and so they have this completely unrealistic idea of what playing the game is actually like.

  3. #163
    The game is tailored against everyone, its just designed in a manipulative way to maximize profit, fun is an afterthought.

  4. #164
    Because lead content designer is a former hardcore raiding guild member and a mod on a forum called "elitistjerks" where you could get infracted for asking a simple question about a spell
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  5. #165
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    Don't be a meta-slave, play the game how you want and the way you find it fun. Simply put Blizz wants to squeeze more playtime out of you as well as everyone else hence all these perceived gates and fences to jump to feel worthy in the eyes of your peers. Forget about it.
    Sidenote: A ton of comments here don't seem to have read a word of what OP wrote, they read what they want to read and respond in kind going off on the usual tangents about casual vs hardcore and gitgud or quit.
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  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    it's a sad feedback loop.

    see, most people are pretty dumb. on top of being pretty dumb, they also lack any ability to tell the difference between observable reality and a preconceived notion of what they think reality is supposed to be.

    so what happens is this:
    1. person is a casual player but interested and involved enough to be aware that forums and icy-veins exist.
    2. person reads the forums and icy-veins and is told repeatedly that only covenant X is viable for Y spec.
    3. person concludes any covenant but X will make your toon literally catch on fire and explode.

    you've got this immense swath of players too dumb to grasp that the minutia of upper end mix/maxing has absolutely nothing to do with running a +5 or pugging a normal difficulty raid 6 months after the tier came out.

    people in these threads freak out about covenant switching because of the fact they've been repeatedly told to blindly follow the instructions of guides and discord servers that are dedicated solely to a type of gameplay that in no way represents what these people are doing, and so they have this completely unrealistic idea of what playing the game is actually like.
    I actually mostly agree with you, but I just usually don't like throwing it in people's faces like that

    But yeah, what the OP actually said in the post about the part of "John, could you heal today so we could raid?" has actually happened in our Mythic raid already.
    And I'd guess with a less than optimal covenant for that situation. I'd say in a lot of cases you can still be quite viable even if it means you wont be making that 99 percentile rank on the boss because you didn't have that covenant min-maxed for a situation. But there really are very few situations even in mythic raiding where its ABSOLUTELY necessary to do X or Y. Especially later on once people have managed to get a bit of gear your can work around those even with a few non-BiS items and/or covenants.

    So I'd actually say that is already perfectly possible to do, you can swap out to your hybrid healing or tank spec if needed and help out your group. Even if a guide tells you another covenant or trinket is BiS for situation X, Y or Z .

    Of course, at the very very top end and the race for a world first or progress-oriented mythic raiding you'd want to do everything possible to min-max. But thats a completely different world to the vast majority of the playerbase. Maybe the general mindset and the overall atmosphere sometimes makes you think that you absolutely cannot play a spec with a subpar covenant...but it definitely is possible, especially in a situation where your group needs someone to fill a special role just for today, to be able to raid or run that Mythic+ dungeon.
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  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    Because lead content designer is a former hardcore raiding guild member and a mod on a forum called "elitistjerks" where you could get infracted for asking a simple question about a spell
    Yeah sure, because no one ever changed in 15 years.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    The game is tailored against everyone, its just designed in a manipulative way to maximize profit, fun is an afterthought.
    Dunno, speak for yourself. It is fun for me.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyrinx View Post
    Because it's progression? Idk what to tell you.

    This argument is 50% of this entire forum at this point, no minds are changing.

    People like bigger numbers in an MMO. News at 11!
    WoW is so casual friendly, it allows people to join, treat it as a seasonal thing that they can FINISH and they LEAVE till next content.

    It's really hard to explain how endless games require some kind of progression for every player, when the game allows season players to exist, so they never experience MMO's as they are. But hard time-gating is not as successful as WoW's variant, so it is what it is.

    It's fighting flat-Earth theory.
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  9. #169
    Also, if you are on a forum, you are not casual.
    So can we stop lying? Just say what bothers you without making stuff up about how casual you are or how would a new player deal with it, stop making what ifs that are not real.

    Just say what you tried to do and what you expect. Like "I wanted to join an M+ 13 but I wanted to tank and i realized switching specs would make me suboptimal and it sucks". Because no casual would have an issue about being perfectly optimal. And no content designed for casual play will require you to be optimal. Pugs will, for high end game stuff but that is so far from "casual".
    So please, just say what YOUR exact issue is, without trying to make it some core issue against a group of players. If we could get proper feedback from people, maybe things would change, but nobody's gonna do anything about something as generic as "blizz makes it hard for casuals" while going on about issues that actually have nothing to do with casuals (needing to optimize spec, by def if you do that you are hardcore, even if you dont spend 24 hours a day ingame).

  10. #170
    Legendary! Zelk's Avatar
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    I'm sorry but there is nothing in SL that stops you from raiding on an offspec every few weeks. It's even more ridiculous to claim that Shadowladns somehow makes this worse than BFA(Azerite armour, essences and Corruptions!) or Legion ( Artifact Weapon, Legendaries and relics). On top of that hardcore guilds would surely be punished more if this was the case since they're doing harder content?

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by urfaustus View Post
    Yes, if you want to have the best gear and rating you cant so it casually... that is how it should be.
    i think for most people it's not about "the best gear", it's about "the point at which gear enables you to do that content without it being a huge struggle"

    as someone who runs a ton of alts i can tell you with certainty that universally across classes and specs the difference between 190-200 ilevel and 205-215 ilevel when it comes to how difficult it is to solo torghast, or perdition hold, or some rares out in the world, is ENORMOUS.
    at 190-200 there is a lot of open world solo-oriented content that is still extremely difficult for all classes and specs, and at 205-215 there's no open world content that presents any significant obstacle, barring perhaps the "power of a colossus" weekly quest in the maw.

    if there was a way to get your character power to the point where open world content was soloable without needing to invest heavily into group/raid content, i'd agree with your statement entirely.
    but since that's a bit of a strawman, i have to quibble.

  12. #172
    Honestly I feel this problem is more a content drought right at the start of an expansion. If we were in 9.1 a month ago or so people would be progressing forward with the catch ups and newer entry level gearing options combined with the newer systems they added in with 9.05.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    So time invested equals to skill, by this logic. Good to know.
    Can be, but it doesn't have to be. Depends how the time is spent.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Shadowlands is probably the most casual/alt friendly expansion in the last 10 years. No need to farm anything, no increase in player power can be endlessly farmed except for Stygia and that is such a small increase that it only matters for the absolute min/maxing, which casuals aren't doing anyway.

    Covenants are similar. Sure they have an impact, because otherwise why would you even have them, but their impact is small enough that it's still completely fine to use an off-meta covenant unless you are doing +20 Mythics and Mythic raiding, which is hardly a thing casuals do anyway.

    For example, I am playing all 3 specs on my Monk, depending what the group needs. I am Kyrian. Pelagos is the unbeatable zenith of soulbinds for every spec. But I am not gonna go through the trouble of constantly switching conduits, so I just picked a Soul Bind for each spec. Pelagos for Dps, Kleia for Healing and Mykanikos for Tanking.
    This way I have done my KSM with several +15/+16/+17 keys and got my Curve + a few Mythic kills in the raid with no problem. Am I 100% min-maxed like this? No. Do I need to be for the content I do? No.

    So unless you are telling me that your "casual" goal is to get Cutting Edge Denathrius and a +20 key in time then I can only say that your problems are simply imagined. You read online how this and this spec/covenant combo is bad, but don't realize that for the usual meta-slavery that it is. People will say something is "bad" if it performs 2% less then the meta combination and such a difference simply does not matter for 95% of the playerbase.

    And as you see on my own example you can perfectly fine utilize all specs of a hybrid class like Monk. It's just a matter of practice as everything in life.
    Biggest truth in this entire thread.

    You are not in any way "required" to play a specific way unless you are pushing hall of fame, CE, or very high keys.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Nootz View Post
    Biggest truth in this entire thread.

    You are not in any way "required" to play a specific way unless you are pushing hall of fame, CE, or very high keys.
    couldnt agree more, i helped R3 in my guild and offtank raid as one of their tanks had some irl issues and i literaly just switched soulbind and weapon, had the dps trinkets and legendary (just for stats as i dont have tanking legendary and trinkets) and we had no issues... some people think its "meta or bust"
    but then again, i know how to play my offspec...

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    That is why I said that cap protects high end players from gaming to death, but it's very limiting from casual perspective, as with a cap you can't even upgrade your weapon from bottom to the top.
    Gearing this expansion is faster for high end players only. Casuals don't go around doing high end rated pvp, raid and m+ while purchasing boes.

    I am biased against gear progression anyway as I progress content rather than gear, but i'm a minority so w/e.
    I think the issue with valor is more that the numbers are a bit off, not that it's capped. For PvP it takes 1-2 weeks' worth of conquest for 1 item, which is pretty reasonable. For M+ it takes 2-3 weeks depending on the slot, assuming you get the item at 210(which you might not). If it was the same number of weekly caps as PvP, I think that'd help a lot.
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  17. #177
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    WoW has changed.

    It used to be a social game designed for mediocre players. You did not need skill to reach anything, only persistence. Whether something is hard or easy - did not matter. The whole point of raids was to gather some people and let them have some fun killing bosses together. There were some exceptions: gladiator PvP ranks, top 1 realm guilds.

    This is not the case anymore.

    Nowadays if you want to complete the content, you have to be an exceptional player and you have to play with exceptional players. If you're playing in a casual guild, you'll bang your head against wall bosses and your guild will disband. You can hop around those casual guilds, but every one of them is the same.

    It is expected from casual player to complete brainless daily and weekly chores and be done with it. If you want to complete a raid, you're expected to pay to excellent players for carries. M+ did not completely embrace this playstyle yet, you still can finish M+15 with enough dedication, but I'm sure that devs are working on it.

    There're few weeks at the beginning of major patches, when heroic raids are somewhat challenging and casual players can have some fun completing it. But it turns into brainless weekly chore pretty quickly.
    Last edited by vsb; 2021-04-23 at 03:39 PM.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Low Hanging Fruit View Post
    Is end game really that terrible for casuals? You might be able to claim you don't like end game but it being tailored only for hardcore players? Two very different stories.

    Raiding has 4 difficulty levels that range from piss easy group assembled for you and the bosses just fall over LFR then to normal, then heroic, then mythic. So raiding is totally accessible to EVERYONE. So tailored for no one.

    Then you got PVP. Again a good number of just que up and the group is just made for you BGs. Rated PVP that might require some social interaction but if you look for simular skill level people via rating it's not hard to find people with a group finder tool. So everyone and anyone can do it.

    Then you have mythic plus that litterially has the whole gambant of skill levels. Entry 1 to 5s that just about anyone can do. 5 to 10s that build up the challenge level a bit. 11s to 15s the press you a bit. Then the sky is the limit beyond that. Hell a 1 and a 2455 key even reward the same valor.

    Now we can also say the open world is total shit and I will go along with that. But it's total shit for everyone pretty evenly. I don't know anyone ranging from super hardcore to total casual that is really enjoying it. So its hard to say it's tailored for hardcore players. More it's just trash.

    Over all everything is tailored for everyone to be able to participate. Casual to hardcore. I hear a lot of rumbles about mage tower type things but I remember that being casual rage when it was new because only people with good gear and mild skill could do it. Sure, patches went by and out gearing it became a lot easier but that can go for everything in the game.

    I do think they made a few mistakes for casuals though. Transmog farming was clipped because for some reason they refused to scale the old raid buff correctly for Legion. I know my wife was PISSED about that as a major casual. At first mythic plus was WAY to punishing and drove a lot of people off combined with no valor system progression that also drove people away. I also don't think the gate for upgrades should be achievement bound. I think valor earning gates it to hard already. Its better now but the damage is done. The open world does suck ass. Just has no life to it and I hope the Maw rework finally gives a little something to do everyday under the sky.

    So tailored purely to hardcores? Negitive. Maybe a shit expansion though. I don't think the two are exclusively tied together.
    It has to be bound to something. Presumably next season it'll be M+ score instead, which makes it a bit more convenient in case you're missing a dungeon for KSM or whatever.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dastreus View Post
    Ok let me remind some people, here. Back after Cata, I remember threads of elitists complaining that they were no longer unique for having epics or whatever. They cried about it en-mass. Next expansion, LFR gets nerfed and split into released segments over weeks. Over time, release date of even the first wing of LFR is pushed clear back to a month after release of a raid, and the gear nerfed further. (Hell, M2 dungeons sometimes give better, back in Legion, and that's easier than LFR.)

    This myth people seem to have that it's casuals is laughable. You'd find most people who even wanted things like LFR weren't exactly asking for Heroic Raid gear. Just something that is an upgrade. It was the elitists who were mad that the so-called casuals could get pretty purple letters on their gear.

    And fine, I am still butthurt about the delaying people not in raiding guilds had to deal with. Life got busy. I wanted to keep up with story content, but was gated behind a literal 2 month wait to do the final tier of a raid people did weeks ago who had more time.

    FFXIV? Just fuckin' que for the raid and do it on release day. And look at that, there is still the hardcore content for people who want it. Hell, I've done some savage/extreme content. Amazing. It's like devs don't have to punish less active players. Wow.
    That's fine, the way to do that is to make WQ and normal/heroic/mythic(not M+) dungeon gear worse, so LFR gear is an upgrade over those types of content. In general, the problems with gear progression for casuals stem from the easiest content being too rewarding so stepping up to the slightly harder content(LFR, normal, low M+ keys) has no incentive left and the only place to go is content that's probably too hard(heroic raid, M+10 etc).
    WQ gear was fine where it was before the Renown upgrades, but with the Renown upgrades it short circuits the incentive to do other content.
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  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    conceptually, this type of game (RPG with combat and loot drops) exists only to increase the power of your character - while i'm sure there are a few exceptions, nobody ever logs into a game like WoW just for the experience of interacting with the game for its own sake.
    power progression is the carrot that we're all chasing, and everything in game is either an end goal you're working to reach via better gear or an activity you're engaging in on account of the gear you already got.
    Well, maybe I'm just one of those exceptions, idk. But I'm currently wiping at hc denathrius since a few weeks and I'm certainly not after the gear he (probably does not) drop

    rest of post
    You make very valid points here. Though I disagree with your idea of character power progression, if it is implemented like AP was. Personally I liked renown very much, Blizz could have tied more open world power increases to it (or any of the covenant buildings, really). After a while open world rares should be soloable (since less and less players are in the open world to help you) and it should not take the next patch for that. I would welcome something for open world players, that does not affect m+, PvP or raiding.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Nothing about your example has anything to do about being casual or not...

    The game became anti casual around roughly legion I would argue though it creeped in as early as MoP. Wow used to be be way,way back when about how good you were at the game not how long you played it for.

    Then slowly like an infection the idea of grind tied around time played mattering more and more slowly sunk their way into the game. Suddenly it wasn't about simply being good enough to do mythic. No you had to do mythic then grind X were X was currency from challengeless and easy content.

    This took a couple of forms from AP to corruptions to azerite traits to conduits.

    The point was to min max a character took more and more "chore" level content rather then being a natural part of gameplay progression. The reason as far as I can tell for this is a desperate bid to try and get more sub money out of players who have no real interest in end game group content but want to progress even if progression to them means doing the exact same thing forever.
    Yes, that's exactly why, and they've stepped back from it a bit in Shadowlands. People complained that they had to do harder content to get better gear. They wanted to just keep doing the same content they were already doing but get rewarded with better loot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    Yeah sry didn't consider your not mentioned arbitrary which expansion is it ok to compare line.



    Wat.
    This game literally got more skill-based and less gear (which was the grind, maybe you werent aware of it because there was no bar) based since every expansion including TBC

    Like its literally the exact opposite what you said lmao
    Did we play the same Legion and BfA? Are we just going to pretend that grinding AP, legendaries and titanforged trinkets/gear in general didn't make a massive difference?
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