Why is end game tailored so much against the casual player?

[munkeyinorbit]

They can't win regardless. Targeting it to casuals will have the hardcore up in arms, reversing it has the casuals upset. Why change it when regardless they will be shit on?

You are using the word casual wrong. Casuals already engage in group content. Casuals already see that there is a progression path for them. They understand that to get the best gear it takes a bit of effort. Could it be slightly easier to gear in group content? Yes. Do we need progression for the players that refuse to do group content? No we don't. Not one bit. Calling these people who refuse to do any group content casuals is an insult to actual casuals. These people are non-players. They refuse to play the game the way it is designed and actively wreck it for others. I don't care if they are 8 million strong. We casuals don't need them and they can go a play a solo game.

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I know you're a fan of Titanforging, but you cannot deny that Titanforging allowed bad players to complete content simply by outgearing it. In BFA a lot of players were only able to beat heroic raids because they went into it completely overgeared by Titanforging. And know that they don't have that Titanforged gear available anymore they are not able to complete the content and people see them for what they really are... bad players.

The same was true for Mythic raiders. As soon as there was content that could not be over geared most mythic raiders gave up. There were dozens of cry threads about how Crucible of Storms was too hard. Sorry Timmy, it wasn't too hard. You're not good enough.

[rhorle]

The irony is that virtually nobody actually participated in those raids at the time they were current, the "community" at large didn't so this largely accepted bullshit was not actually largely accepted. Progression was killing boars repeatedly for like 90% of the people who ever played this game. Shit thats what fucking mmos were ffs. Mythic raiding bullshit is nu stuff they invented to appease try hards. Grinding boars as progression is a definition thats far more reflective of the actual community. And you have the gal to to twist that into some common parlance for mythic raid jerk offs.

That still isn't progression. Progression isn't something that can be swapped with activity. Their progression was stagnant for early WoW because it was limited. So people used other things to fill their time. If you want to nitpick yes farming Timbermaw for rep is technically progression since you gain rep and progress further. But in the sense of the word for gaming it isn't.

It doesn't matter if the community at large didn't do the raids, or whatever else, because it isn't majority rules in order to define terms.

[arkanon]

There's a difference between good repetition and bad repetition. Good repetition should be challenging and be straining you, either due to difficulty or how often, how fast you have to repeat the task - a lot like climbing M+. Bad repetition is the equivalent of getting full 226 for killing one boar a million times.

To use real life examples, if you're used to servicing F-15s or MiG-29s, your skill as an aircraft mechanic only really increases with time spent with a F-35 or Su-57 fighter jet and its maintenance, and no matter how many times you "service" a balsa wood model airplane, or even a F-15 or MiG-29, you'll never be qualified to work without supervision on a modern stealth aircraft. This is the same reason quests used to go green, then go gray for granting experience, and why mobs stopped giving experience to you once you were 10 levels above them.

From everything I'm reading, Crimson Spears wants good repetition, and Glorious Leader wants bad repetition. I can't really be too sure about that second part, what with all the semantics and obstinate refusal to acknowledge the commonly implied and understood definition for the word in the context of WoW and its community.

Bob: "Yeah man, I'm doing some mad progression in Classic!"
Jim: "Cool! What are you progressing - AQ40 or Naxx? Have you gotten an Atiesh for your raid yet?"
Bob: "No, I'm more into the number of times I've killed Hogger at level 60. Like, the kill count goes up by one every time I kill him! One shot him every time. Wicked, right?"
Jim: "Yeah... I'm GoInG bAcK tO ReTaIl."

Good and Bad are subjective to begin with, even more so when you are talking about entertainment, something that is also inherently subjective. So ironically, you further supported what im saying - its entirely subjective.

[Elias1337]

The carrot is still there, you just choose to ignore it. It's not the WoW dev's fault you've erected this pointless barrier to your own progression.

Actualy it is developers fault if way they desing content makes you ignore higher difficulties. If you give players 100% of wow content on silver plate trough easy mods, lfr, lfg, etc. You cant expect them to care about carrot. Becouse that carrot is nothing but better gear what have no purpose but to make you stronger fot sake of getting stronger.

Back in Vannila and TBC you wanted to be stronger to defeated harder content. Not higher difficulty of same content but actual harder new content with new bosses, new lore in completly new raid. Thats major difference between past and current sructure of wow content.

[ellieg]

Actualy it is developers fault if way they desing content makes you ignore higher difficulties. If you give players 100% of wow content on silver plate trough easy mods, lfr, lfg, etc. You cant expect them to care about carrot. Becouse that carrot is nothing but better gear what have no purpose but to make you stronger fot sake of getting stronger.

Back in Vannila and TBC you wanted to be stronger to defeated harder content. Not higher difficulty of same content but actual harder new content with new bosses, new lore in completly new raid. Thats major difference between past and current sructure of wow content.

But the higher difficulties have new mechanics that actually change the encounters. If that doesn't interest you its fine, but it does interest a lot of players.

[Kalisandra]

I'm struggling to understand the point here. Casuals don't need most of the stuff being described. If you're min-maxing as a casual then why the fuck are you a casual LMAO

Because while you might not have the time to play much, or do 'serious' content, you also want to use what time to do have efficiently. That means, among other things, having good gear so you don't spend ages killing stuff due to poor gear or worse due to your poor gear making mistakes that would be survivable in good gear turn into death runs. As Blizzard has seen fit to make the last four expansions' zones difficult to get around and tends to put the graveyards in really annoying places, a death is often a significant time loss.

So yes, 'causals' have every reason to want the best gear they can get, and to want that gear to be good.

[Crimson Spears]

Because while you might not have the time to play much, or do 'serious' content, you also want to use what time to do have efficiently. That means, among other things, having good gear so you don't spend ages killing stuff due to poor gear or worse due to your poor gear making mistakes that would be survivable in good gear turn into death runs. As Blizzard has seen fit to make the last four expansions' zones difficult to get around and tends to put the graveyards in really annoying places, a death is often a significant time loss.

So yes, 'causals' have every reason to want the best gear they can get, and to want that gear to be good.

Then they should spend time doing it...

A mythic 15 by design takes roughly 30mins.

[erifwodahs]

By standards you mean "Bodies who can fill slots to funnel gear to the RL and his buddies". That is what trials are used for.

Well, I don't want to join your guild then, because in my books trials are for testing people if they are good enough addition to the team.

[8bithamster]

I love how the casuals here are whining they want mythic raid gear, do +20's and max rated pvp with 0 effort "because they deserve it"

If you don't do the content, you don't deserve, nor need the gear.

it's really not a hard concept to grasp.. but alas, the people that defend such casual "I deserve X because I pay" are also the types that go on Facebook/reddit "omg corona is a hoax!!!!"

[Revamp Man]

Because while you might not have the time to play much, or do 'serious' content, you also want to use what time to do have efficiently. That means, among other things, having good gear so you don't spend ages killing stuff due to poor gear or worse due to your poor gear making mistakes that would be survivable in good gear turn into death runs. As Blizzard has seen fit to make the last four expansions' zones difficult to get around and tends to put the graveyards in really annoying places, a death is often a significant time loss.

So yes, 'causals' have every reason to want the best gear they can get, and to want that gear to be good.

You can want it
I mean I want a new car but it doesn’t mean it will magically appear

Also I would almost be inclined to agree with you if it wasn’t for the fact that 200ilvl with the covenant set bonus is a big survivability boost and outside of pulling a bunch of mobs you’ll be fine

[Naiattavain]

the games made for esports now. players was back in bc vanilla wrath cata mists wod.

[rhorle]

Because while you might not have the time to play much, or do 'serious' content, you also want to use what time to do have efficiently. That means, among other things, having good gear so you don't spend ages killing stuff due to poor gear or worse due to your poor gear making mistakes that would be survivable in good gear turn into death runs. As Blizzard has seen fit to make the last four expansions' zones difficult to get around and tends to put the graveyards in really annoying places, a death is often a significant time loss. So yes, 'causals' have every reason to want the best gear they can get, and to want that gear to be good.

Have you played the game recently? Because I don't think you have given how you think it takes ages to kill stuff with item level 200. World content isn't that hard because the item level ceiling for non-group content is set so high in Shadowlands. It is equal to Mythic 4 and Mythic 5. The covenant is set to Mythic 6. If someone has trouble doing the world content then it isn't from gear but player ability.

Casuals, no matter how you define it, have every right and reason to want good gear. That gear is currently good. It is not the best but it is more then good enough. You don't need 200+ in order to do any of the world content.

[Garymorilix]

Have you played the game recently? Because I don't think you have given how you think it takes ages to kill stuff with item level 200. World content isn't that hard because the item level ceiling for non-group content is set so high in Shadowlands. It is equal to Mythic 4 and Mythic 5. The covenant is set to Mythic 6. If someone has trouble doing the world content then it isn't from gear but player ability.

Casuals, no matter how you define it, have every right and reason to want good gear. That gear is currently good. It is not the best but it is more then good enough. You don't need 200+ in order to do any of the world content.

Let's not even mention that you can literally buy a 197 set with an outdoor bonus, in fact, you get the whole set for free you just need to upgrade it.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Well...Ion was an Elitest Jerk, for one thing. Still is, in a more literal sense.

and Ion is not in charge of wow... you may check who jhon hight is and come back here even if ion wants 10 226 items to drop form 1 WQ he needs jhons aprove for it

[Thunderball]

Endgame is very casual friendly compared to what I'm used to: Classic and end of Wrath/early Cata, which is when I played retail last time. All the 'hardships' you describe are not even a factor if you're doing mythic raiding. Sure, you're not going to be pushing for world first, but I dont think anyone is expecting it. The biggest factor is how well you play and how well your raid leader manages the raid. Sure, if you're playing in a pug the requirements for optimization are going to be much higher because you're hedging for a lot of things that are outside of your control.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

there is a carrot but instead of it being right in front of you like a twinkie with chris griffon you have to ask someone to help you both get a carrot and that level of human interaction is asking too much

that is the best definition of the 90% of mmo champions self proclaimed "casuals" i have seen so far lol

[kaintk]

because Ion was a hardcore raider before working for blizzard
he think that raiding old school for stuff is the only way to go in WoW, he's old school, boring and should be replace with someone who is more open to raider, casual , pvper people

imagine developping a game for only around 15% of the players (the raider) and thinking its fine, well, its not, its why the game is dying and lot of casual people are leaving the game

[rrayy]

Well, I don't want to join your guild then, because in my books trials are for testing people if they are good enough addition to the team.

Not my guild that does that. The guilds that do that contain the people whining that master looter was removed.

[Soon-TM]

I love how the casuals here are whining they want mythic raid gear, do +20's and max rated pvp with 0 effort "because they deserve it"

If you don't do the content, you don't deserve, nor need the gear.

it's really not a hard concept to grasp.. but alas, the people that defend such casual "I deserve X because I pay" are also the types that go on Facebook/reddit "omg corona is a hoax!!!!"

Between strawmen, ad hominem and wild reaching, this post is a small jewel indeed. Even for MMOC standards

[Revamp Man]

because Ion was a hardcore raider before working for blizzard
he think that raiding old school for stuff is the only way to go in WoW, he's old school, boring and should be replace with someone who is more open to raider, casual , pvper people

imagine developping a game for only around 15% of the players (the raider) and thinking its fine, well, its not, its why the game is dying and lot of casual people are leaving the game

Yeah because raiders are the ones that got told “the covenant system will be fine shut up you elitists”

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Not my guild that does that. The guilds that do that contain the people whining that master looter was removed.

Oh stop with that garbage

The whole “guilds never gave fear to trials” was based on forum posts and most of them got debunked by other raiders that were in the same guild

Poor jimmy didn’t get the BiS trinket from the progression boss so he’s obviously not getting loot...ignoring the loot from the farm bosses that he got which were about 3-5

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Between strawmen, ad hominem and wild reaching, this post is a small jewel indeed. Even for MMOC standards

It fits this thread