End justifies the means is not an excuse for this how practice fel , void and death

[Varodoc]

Your point only means anything if we consider the PC part of the lore. Which... he isn't really.

The "adventurers" (i.e. player characters) literally narrate the trailer of MoP, the Adventurer (i.e. player character) is indeed an acknowledged story character, meaning that there are also Shadow Priest adventurers who are seen as heroes and don't succumb to madness.

Yet. Benedictus has. Deathwing has.

If such powerful beings go mad because of the Old Gods, playing around with their powers is sheer stupidity.

This is a silly argument. Yrel went mad with the Light, the Scarlet Crusade went mad with the Light, the Botani are mad with Life, those who created Mana Bombs are mad with Arcane, etc. There will always be people who abuse such powers, and you can't even make the argument that there are more people abusing the Void than any other power, given how Draenor was taken over by Light fanatics in BfA.

[Mourneblade]

The "adventurers" (i.e. player characters) literally narrate the trailer of MoP, the Adventurer (i.e. player character) is indeed an acknowledged story character, meaning that there are also Shadow Priest adventurers who are seen as heroes and don't succumb to madness.


This is a silly argument. Yrel went mad with the Light, the Scarlet Crusade went mad with the Light, the Botani are mad with Life, those who created Mana Bombs are mad with Arcane, etc. There will always be people who abuse such powers, and you can't even make the argument that there are more people abusing the Void than any other power, given how Draenor was taken over by Light fanatics in BfA.

Ironic Alleria told us about this how have practice and used void magic have gone mad/insane/evil because of their weak willpower , but she also told us if her son Arator is killed nothing can stop her even her willpower or husband/sister/friends/allies from becoming mad/insane/evil in the process.

[starstationprofm]

The "adventurers" (i.e. player characters) literally narrate the trailer of MoP, the Adventurer (i.e. player character) is indeed an acknowledged story character, meaning that there are also Shadow Priest adventurers who are seen as heroes and don't succumb to madness.


This is a silly argument. Yrel went mad with the Light, the Scarlet Crusade went mad with the Light, the Botani are mad with Life, those who created Mana Bombs are mad with Arcane, etc. There will always be people who abuse such powers, and you can't even make the argument that there are more people abusing the Void than any other power, given how Draenor was taken over by Light fanatics in BfA.

Yeah? What are their names?

Yrel went mad with the Light

AU fanfiction

the Scarlet Crusade went mad with the Light

Wrong. The Scarlet leader was replaced by a DEMON ( hint hint, Fel = evil ) who manipulated them

the Botani are mad with Life

AU fanfiction

those who created Mana Bombs are mad with Arcane

That's not how it works lmao. Arcane doesn't make you ''mad with Arcane''. Fel and Void very much have negative effects on your mind. That's literally the lore for those powers.

[Soon-TM]

A bit of blood sacrifice and demonic summoning has never hurt anyone.

Except the gnome who summoned Jaraxxus in TotC

But honestly, while I understand, even like (to an extent) the concept of "fighting fire with fire", I would honestly like to see more RP consequences for folks like void elves or DKs at large. For example, the rebuke you get when entering the SW cathedral on a VE toon is awesome, we definitely need more of that kind of stuff.

- - - Updated - - -

Ironic Alleria told us about this how have practice and used void magic have gone mad/insane/evil because of their weak willpower , but she also told us if her son Arator is killed nothing can stop her even her willpower or husband/sister/friends/allies from becoming mad/insane/evil in the process.

Frankly, there is nothing in Alleria screaming "strong willpower", especially when she got mad after Lirath's death and went to hunt Orcs in a desolate wasteland against her king's wishes, neglecting her responsibility towards her own people as Ranger General (as a matter of fact, that's how Sylvanas came to occupy that position) and with the same humans she still despised five minutes before, on top of it.

Looks like throwing a tantrum and getting away with it equals somehow to "strong willpower". And don't get me started with her eating a dark Naaru without any consequences whatsoever. I really hope they don't turn her into the next Mary Sue, Andy and Sylv are more than enough as it is.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

[enigma77]

Fel magic, void magic, and death magic aren't innately evil. They're no more evil than light or life or arcane. Xe'ra was essentially forcing the light upon Illidan. The botani used life to infest and enslave organisms to spread their own influence. The Kirin Tor and shal'dorei both used different forms of arcane prisons to imprison innocent people. While we can point to Arthas and say death magic destroyed Quel'thelas or point at the Legion and say fel magic destroyed...I'm sure the Legion at some point actually succeeded in destroying something with fel magic, that doesn't make death and fel innately evil or bad to use.

Also, self-sacrifice/self-destruction sounds way more a paladin/light thing than death/fel/void thing.

Fel magic is magic literally fueled by the destruction of souls.

I'm sorry but that's as innately evil as it gets.

Fel is fueled by drawing life from living beings and consuming their souls, utterly destroying them in the process.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Fel

Fel completely destroys your otherwise immortal spirit. Yup, totally not evil, lol.

[Ielenia]

End justifies the means and fighting fire with fire is not an excuse for warlock , death knight , demon hunter , shadow priest , necromancer , dark ranger , dark shaman , blood mage , void elf , rogue with shadow magic , druid with nightmare magic , cultist with old god/sha magic , witch doctor and shadow hunter to practice and use their evil magic for every twisted ideas that come in their heads.

Also is their any price for their dark powers and by price I mean exhaustion , corruption , paranoia , becoming evil , insanity , suicide , suicide thoughts , madness , spells that backfire resulting in death , sacrifice , self-sacrifice , self-destruction , demonic possesion , possesion , killed by their minions , addiction and getting killed by their powers in the process.

You forgot something in your post.

An actual point.

[Traveler Voltin]

why arent you calling out the light?

the light crystalizes planets.

[Le Conceptuel]

The "adventurers" (i.e. player characters) literally narrate the trailer of MoP, the Adventurer (i.e. player character) is indeed an acknowledged story character, meaning that there are also Shadow Priest adventurers who are seen as heroes and don't succumb to madness.


This is a silly argument. Yrel went mad with the Light, the Scarlet Crusade went mad with the Light, the Botani are mad with Life, those who created Mana Bombs are mad with Arcane, etc. There will always be people who abuse such powers, and you can't even make the argument that there are more people abusing the Void than any other power, given how Draenor was taken over by Light fanatics in BfA.

Well, it's not necessarily solely because it has the potential to be extremely destructive - it's because it's innately destructive. Think of the different between nuclear power and oil. While nuclear power may actually be more destructive than oil, it can be used in a way that doesn't innately cause damage. All use of oil, regardless of the case, causes damage to the environment. Similarly, even if other powers can get close to the Void and drive their users mad with power, destruction and madness are innate elements of the Void.

Furthermore, it's not what it can be used for that presents a problem - it's that the Void is innately destructive and maddening as a rule. You require great discipline not to go insane from it, and even then we've seen possible futures where that isn't the case. Although I'd say it's not as bad as Fel because the Fel is so innately destructive and doesn't even offer a new perspective or its own form of ascension like the Void does, but Void is definitely innately harmful, if not evil, and should consequently be treated as such and more dangerous than the Arcane, Light, Life, etc.

It's also worth noting that the Scarlet Crusade didn't go mad with the Light, but simply went mad in general and happened to have the Light on their side. Same thing with people creating Mana Bombs. When you go mad in relation to the Void, it's because of the Void, not coinciding with it.

Now, it can still be asked whether or not it is justified to use the Void. That is a different question entirely.

[AcidicSyn]

No the tool isn't good or evil at all. It is a tool. It is the person who is good or evil.

That's what I said dude.

[Varodoc]

Well, it's not necessarily solely because it has the potential to be extremely destructive - it's because it's innately destructive. Think of the different between nuclear power and oil. While nuclear power may actually be more destructive than oil, it can be used in a way that doesn't innately cause damage. All use of oil, regardless of the case, causes damage to the environment. Similarly, even if other powers can get close to the Void and drive their users mad with power, destruction and madness are innate elements of the Void.

Furthermore, it's not what it can be used for that presents a problem - it's that the Void is innately destructive and maddening as a rule. You require great discipline not to go insane from it, and even then we've seen possible futures where that isn't the case. Although I'd say it's not as bad as Fel because the Fel is so innately destructive and doesn't even offer a new perspective or its own form of ascension like the Void does, but Void is definitely innately harmful, if not evil, and should consequently be treated as such and more dangerous than the Arcane, Light, Life, etc.

It's also worth noting that the Scarlet Crusade didn't go mad with the Light, but simply went mad in general and happened to have the Light on their side. Same thing with people creating Mana Bombs. When you go mad in relation to the Void, it's because of the Void, not coinciding with it.

Now, it can still be asked whether or not it is justified to use the Void. That is a different question entirely.

You say that the Void is innately destructive/corruptive, and yet Life is no different then. It has been shown multiple times that Life can be deadly/toxic towards biological beings. Refer to the Botani in WoD, who essentially turned people into zombies via their Life sorcery. One Kirin Tor mage was even turned into a zombie by literally having a plant take control of her brain.

And Yes, there is certainly a debate to be had because it's already been shown many times that the Void can be used for good. This is what the Ren'dorei are doing, they are using the Void to protect Azeroth. Alleria Windrunner used her Void powers to save the Alliance at the Battle of Lordaeron. And so on.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Your point only means anything if we consider the PC part of the lore. Which... he isn't really.

Yet. Benedictus has. Deathwing has.

If such powerful beings go mad because of the Old Gods, playing around with their powers is sheer stupidity.

This is an inane argument. It should first be said that the idea that because many villains' we have fought were associated with the void explicitly means that all individuals who use void will become villains (i.e.: go insane or become evil) could be applicable to the Light as well (i.e.: Y'rel, Xe'ra, and the Scarlet Crusade). Both of these forces are capable of warping people's perceptions and encourage zealotry, the only difference is that our goals have been broadly aligned with the Light and against the Void. Second, Old Gods driving people mad is not even remotely the same as the Void driving people mad. In one instance you have a mind intent on causing you duress until you break and is not evidence that these minds would have broken otherwise. Imagine a dam that is holding back a massive lake of water. What you are trying to argue is that the dam will always break, regardless of whether a malicious actor has done anything to the dam, while explicitly referencing situations where a pissed off Neptulon slaps his briny cock on dams until they fail.

- - - Updated - - -

Furthermore, it's not what it can be used for that presents a problem - it's that the Void is innately destructive and maddening as a rule.

...

When you go mad in relation to the Void, it's because of the Void, not coinciding with it.

Individuals who are going mad in relation to the Void are going mad because entities are explicitly intending this to occur. The Twilights Hammer, Deathwing, and pretty much every "insane" cultist that is related to the Void was formed by people drawn to the Old Gods who had the express intent of causing this to happen. This is not evidence of the Void being innately destructive. All the Void does is provide you a set of possible outcomes and suggests courses of action, whereas the Light (i.e.: Xe'ra, the Lightbound) has been documented as attempting to impose beings into compliance through direct means and installing fanatic devotion in their dogmatic beliefs.

Literally this whole argument around the Void can be boiled down to "Void is bad because is look bad in game" when we've seen that our perception of the cosmic forces is only as it is because of how we've engaged with those forces so far.

[Varodoc]

The Story and Blizzard are clear in their intent. They sacrificed Yrel and the AU Draenei for a reason. And it's to show that there is no good and no evil in Warcraft. Like Benedictus put it, "there is no good, no evil, there is only power."

The Void is not evil, the Light is not good, they are just powers, this is the clear message of the Story. Just as the Ren'dorei use their powers to protect Azeroth, the Lightbound use their powers to subjugate Draenor.

It is pointless to try and make this story into a White and Black-kind of story, because it isn't. Otherwise the Lightbound and Scarlet Crusade wouldn't exist.

[Maxilian]

Frankly, there is nothing in Alleria screaming "strong willpower", especially when she got mad after Lirath's death and went to hunt Orcs in a desolate wasteland against her king's wishes, neglecting her responsibility towards her own people as Ranger General (as a matter of fact, that's how Sylvanas came to occupy that position) and with the same humans she still despised five minutes before, on top of it.

Looks like throwing a tantrum and getting away with it equals somehow to "strong willpower". And don't get me started with her eating a dark Naaru without any consequences whatsoever. I really hope they don't turn her into the next Mary Sue, Andy and Sylv are more than enough as it is.

Well willpower and being hot headed are not mutually exclusive... i think

Nor being smart.

- - - Updated - - -

why arent you calling out the light?

the light crystalizes planets.

Because this thread was made by a Goblin and we all know anything that shines and can be sold at a high price with a low production cost cannot be evil

Jokes aside, I think is because the light doesn't have any obvious detriment to its use (excluding the fact that it may not be the most reliable type of power)

- - - Updated - - -

Fel magic is magic literally fueled by the destruction of souls.

I'm sorry but that's as innately evil as it gets.



https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Fel

Fel completely destroys your otherwise immortal spirit. Yup, totally not evil, lol.

But to be fair, it can be used with just life force and in minor quantities, like using the fish life force before cooking it, or a lot of plant you wish to cut down, but yes, even though it can be used for good, and there may be some ways that it can be done without the whole "CONSUME YOUR SOUL" thing, its still questionable at best, as regardless if you don't consume a soul, you will still feel the addiction of Fel the more you use it. (Unlike Arcane, that the addiction to it, comes when its abused)

[zhimm1011]

good and evil are abstracts made by thinking peoples to explain away peoples actions. I am sure this doesn't come up when Us Human beings who use great floods of poisons and flame to eliminate insects on a massive scale without even a thought. Or the animals kept in horrific conditions ready for consumption by the masses. Evil and Good have always been abstracts and nothing more. what you consider evil and alien might consider good its all subjective the entire universe is built on the principle. Black Holes consume stars without any thought, the universe does not stop to consider if its evil because life might be thriving on a planet near the consumed star.

[Nnyco]

Are they truely evil though when you use em for good?

[Raisei]

Weapons are neither good nor evil, the ones using them are.

The Alliance has openly used Warlocks to use Fel and summon Demons as long as it was for a good cause and even the Priests have an entire chamber in their Netherlight Temple dedicated to the study of the Void.

Not to mention that we need this knowledge to overcome these powers when they are used against us. When the Lich King attacked us (and now the Jailer) the knowledge possessed by the Death Knights was integral to overcoming them. When the Legion attacked we had Warlocks and the Illidari with precious knowledge and during N'zoths short reign we had Alleria and the Void Elves.

You are naive, OP. Sometimes you can only win by using fire against fire.

[Raisei]

From I remember we defeated N'zoth with the help of Heart of Azeroth, Mother, Wrathion and Magni not from Alleria and void elfs

Yes and Illidan did not kill Argus and Morgraine did not kill Arthas. Yet they are contributing knowledge that is invaluable. Though I admit, Wrathion and Magni kinda stole the Void Elves thunder there. Probably because the Velfs are still very much faction bound, while Wrathion and Magni are free agents.

[Varodoc]

Alleria Windrunner was the only one in 8.2.5 who suggested to make an armistice with Sylvanas/Horde Loyalists in order to form a united front against N'Zoth. It's safe to say that the Ren'dorei waged their own war against the Old God, even if on-screen they didn't appear. Not everything has to be shown on-screen.

Yes and Illidan did not kill Argus and Morgraine did not kill Arthas. Yet they are contributing knowledge that is invaluable. Though I admit, Wrathion and Magni kinda stole the Void Elves thunder there. Probably because the Velfs are still very much faction bound, while Wrathion and Magni are free agents.

Yes, what happened to the Ren'dorei in 8.3 was criminal. They definitely deserved some spotlight aside from the Corrupted Vision.

And I guess that's true too, if Alleria or Umbric were the main Quest givers of 8.3 then the Horde fanboys would have stormed the forums with complaints

[Lolites]

these weapons are inherently evil, and that they are only used because they are needed.

cant you say that about ALL weapons? or is there some peacefull use of sword?

and in what way is use of shadow magic worse than burning someone alive with fire or freezing him to death or burning him with Light or starlight or sunfire, applying bleeding effects or poison with weapons or claws?
and what about barbed shot, flaying shot?