View Poll Results: do you want Meta back for Demo?

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  • yes

    11 61.11%
  • no

    7 38.89%
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  1. #21
    Disclaimer: I am not, and have never been a warlock main.

    I did really enjoy the WoD version of demo, having 2 rotations that change your spell like that felt really cool. I kinda wished that void form would do that for spriests, but it really doesn't have that same feeling at all, and obviously neither does DH meta

  2. #22
    I would like the gameplay back, not necessarily the visuals.

    Being able to switch to instant casts, having an execute and being able to be a single target spec that is able to be elevated in council situations (via old doom) was perfect.

    Honestly, I like current demo. But the MoP Doom would fit perfectly into the kit right now and would fix one of the most glaring issues. And current doom is just the worst designed spell in the existence of WoW.
    Last edited by LordVargK; 2021-04-30 at 05:12 PM.

  3. #23
    Dreadlord Molvonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadiru View Post
    "I like Demonology better now!" Yeah it's great spamming Fel Sinister Strike to build up your Fel Combo Poi- Soul Shards to cast Fel Ruptur- sorry, "Hand of Gul'dan."
    That....

    Applies to any class with a combo point system anymore.

    Got anything else to contribute with?

    The fact Hand of Gul'dan summons imps, the fact you're a pet class, with your imps, dreadstalkers, and plethora of other demons, all out at the same time, feels more like demonology now than it ever did in the past.
    Just because I advocate your ability to play and enjoy WoW Classic doesn't mean I think it'll be successful.

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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    That....

    Applies to any class with a combo point system anymore.

    Got anything else to contribute with?

    The fact Hand of Gul'dan summons imps, the fact you're a pet class, with your imps, dreadstalkers, and plethora of other demons, all out at the same time, feels more like demonology now than it ever did in the past.
    Having a granular resource that you can pool and spend at will to fit the encounter with some flexibility vs the rigid train wreck we have now. We had imp swarm before, we had double doomguard, we had the summoner fantasy on top of meta.

    But whatever, muh imps and dogs woo.

  5. #25
    Bring Dark Apotheosis back

  6. #26
    the funny thing is that blizzard said that they changed it because the design of the spec went too far from the original spec.

    But the original demonology had nothing to do with summoning demons, but to improving them while being a hybrid of shadow and fire damage, so instead of having metamorphosis or the demonic tyrant, they could have given the spec the transformation gul'dan does in the literal same expansion of the rework, and give that the demonic tyrant effect, thus making the old demonology the original design it had without transforming into a demon.

    Then they made combat a pirate spec and survival a melee with bombs, wich neither of them had that design in vanilla.

    They just didnt know how to evolve demonology anymore.

  7. #27
    Bloodsail Admiral Kalador's Avatar
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    Current demo is a really good and fun spec. The amount of warlock main i see who have never actually tried it is sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nadiru View Post
    "I like Demonology better now!" Yeah it's great spamming Fel Sinister Strike to build up your Fel Combo Poi- Soul Shards to cast Fel Ruptur- sorry, "Hand of Gul'dan."
    More than half of the spec in this game are build/spend. Are you saying Arcane Mage is the same as Ret Pally or WW Monk and that Destro play the same as Enhc sham

    Like I get the nostalgia for an old spec but this is just rly bad take

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalador View Post
    Current demo is a really good and fun spec. The amount of warlock main i see who have never actually tried it is sad.



    More than half of the spec in this game are build/spend. Are you saying Arcane Mage is the same as Ret Pally or WW Monk and that Destro play the same as Enhc sham

    Like I get the nostalgia for an old spec but this is just rly bad take
    I think his point is that Soul Shards for Demo are barely Soul Shards. For the other two specs they are a valuable resource slowly built up and then used to unleash powerful spells. For demo they are virtually worthless in comparison as they are generated extremely quickly, more akin to combo points and then dumped to cast a mediocre spender.

  9. #29
    Bloodsail Admiral Kalador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    I think his point is that Soul Shards for Demo are barely Soul Shards. For the other two specs they are a valuable resource slowly built up and then used to unleash powerful spells. For demo they are virtually worthless in comparison as they are generated extremely quickly, more akin to combo points and then dumped to cast a mediocre spender.
    Demo doesn't play at all like destro or aff and that is a good thing. I personaly enjoy demo a lot. I'm sure it's not the case for everyone, but saying new demo is bad because it's to much like rogue (that's what he is saying) is just a bad take on the spec.

    Demo core mechanic is not even bulding and spending. It's about optimizing pet timing for certain windows.
    Last edited by Kalador; 2021-06-05 at 05:25 PM.

  10. #30
    I much prefer demo now to the metamorph spec.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesahaettr View Post
    I much prefer demo now to the metamorph spec.
    same,but i do miss the days of being the spirit bitch in wrath lol,granted that doesnt mean i want meta back

  12. #32
    Bloodsail Admiral kushlol's Avatar
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    I had ceased playing my warlock essentially because of the removal of old demo with meta. The current iteration of demo is extremely bland. All 3 of the warlock specs are shells of what they once were. I wonder if they will ever stop pruning away spells and tearing away iconic spec identity with it. I've kept in touch with a lot of high end progression raiding and pvp warlocks over the years and the vast majority don't like most of the specs compared to how great they have been many times in the past.

    To stay on point with the post I would love for the old demo to come back.

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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by kushlol View Post
    I had ceased playing my warlock essentially because of the removal of old demo with meta. The current iteration of demo is extremely bland. All 3 of the warlock specs are shells of what they once were. I wonder if they will ever stop pruning away spells and tearing away iconic spec identity with it. I've kept in touch with a lot of high end progression raiding and pvp warlocks over the years and the vast majority don't like most of the specs compared to how great they have been many times in the past.

    To stay on point with the post I would love for the old demo to come back.
    Current Demo is by far one of the most unique and interesting casters in the game...

    The only spec that is not as fun as a previous iteration is Destro vs how it was during Siege of Orgrimmar.

  14. #34
    Empowering self to be a Demon doesn't seem like a very caster sort of role. It seems like more of a melee augment. Unless they would change Demo to a melee spec it wouldn't make sense, imo. Augmenting demons to be powerful is something the new Demo kind of did to a lesser extent at one point -- and still kind of does, with things like the Tyrant. Tyrant I'd argue is more the new Metamorphosis. Hell, Tyrant even kind of looks like Metamorphosis a little bit. Empowering lots of demons does happen with the spec, it just isn't the primary focus of it. I think it's a lot more unique to summon lots of demons rather than just empowering one. Because, then instead of being the study of all demons, the spec would then become the study of just ONE demon. And only one demon. It would basically just be the Felguard spec. This kind of doesn't work with Warlocks, as the Warlock needs to be powerful in lore to dominate the demon. If the entire spec is about empowering the Felguard, then it would make little sense that the Felguard couldn't just turn around and kill YOU if it wanted. Lorewise you could wiggle it a bit and say you can strip all the power and make the demon helpless if you wanted, I suppose. So that's kinda one way out of that, if you're really trying to squeeze the logic there.

    I think it's more iconic of The Burning Legion to have a huge army rather than one big huge demon. Some demons are big, but not Felguards. If the Demo spec revolved around a different demon - like mini enslaved Titans like Sargeras, or Pit Lord, or Eredar, or some other really iconically huge demon type, I think that'd work better. But Felguards as we know are more "common soldier" size, or medium size, so the fantasy of making them super big doesn't really fit with how we know how big they get. Whereas a demon like an Eredar or something like Sargeras can kind of be any size they want to be -- so those being radically empowered to change and get all beefed up makes a lot more sense. Pit Lords kind of empowering the Warlock with their blood would be another direction to take Demonology -- by drinking blood, and being more obsessed with blood magic. But Blood magic in general doesn't really get covered by anything except DKs as it is currently, anyway, so there's a ton of room there in general. Demon blood specifically is green, so I think in a way that is pretty iconic and could be separate from other potential blood specs in that visual kind of way.

    There's also a minor issue of "empowering the pet" being the trope of Beast Mastery currently (Unholy also kind of does this). Still, Demo still kind of does this with Tyrant as it is currently so the aspect isn't entirely missing. If Demo basically became "Big Red Demon Spec," it'd probably feel too similar to BM at that point. I think the point is to be a little more unique, even putting aside the other issues. But, as stated a little previously, there's ways to make Demo feel more appropriate as the Big Red Demon spec, or to have other directions like taking in Pit Lord blood as a basis for self-empowerment rather than going full-hog entirely in the same direction as BM. That said, it could be a collective set of talent options to specialize into big bad demon, army, or self-empowerment type as the talent options in each row or column set. It could be more varied like that without establishing the identity so rigidly so it would be more varied on your talent build. But, that kind of thinking kind of leads to homogenization if all specs start having that same kind of build-theme variety, like BM had an army and big pet and empower by beasts, or Unholy did the same -- it'd get samey, so going down that road is a little dangerous for what it could lead to when a spec strays too far from one strong spec theme. It's dangerous.

    I understand it kind of opens up room for Necromancer to be the army-summoning. But both the Legion and the Scourge both have endless army themes. It can work for both. I'd argue we see a lot more giant Demons, as Undead are usually based on humanoids and there aren't as many giant-types or golems or constructs that make up the Undead in total compared to Demons which can kind of come in any size more consistently without the angle of being combined or structured that way - just in terms of how they originate. Demons can also kind of combine to be larger - by taking in more power, for example, so I think Demons having a 'Big Red Demon' spec may make more sense than say a Big Red Skele Boi spec.

    As far as the lot of rarely doing huge empowerment, or constantly doing it, has another avenue that can go down into somewhat more frequently but still not as frequently territory. One is full burst, one is more sustain, another angle is kind of both. (Ret paladins kind of fills this niche irregularly, in terms of other archetypes that aren't burst or sustain as consistently.)

    There is a small annoyance that large armies may cause lag or performance issues. The more specs that focus on large armies, it becomes a bit of a problem. So at least in terms of performance there is a kind of benefit to the game for Demo to be a Big Red Demon spec. But, if there's room for a Big Red Demon spec, there's also room for a Big Red Skele Boi spec (actually, Trove does Necromancer like this).

    As far as my feelings on old Meta go, it's mainly appealing for the niche role of being able to off-tank, or tank entirely, which for pet specs traditionally is so unsupported and unfriendly in terms of control scheme. Most groups never allow pets to tank, despite pet replacing being easier than replacing a dying tank while sometimes being durable enough to off-tank if they were allowed to. I feel like something that has to happen in the game at some point is to make pet controlling more intuitive and easier so that things like pet tanking can be done more in the hands of casual players rather than an advanced strat you rarely see. Like, how often do you see someone with a pet manually move it around? Like, never. I feel like melee pet specs kind of get away with having pets follow them, so it would seem natural that pet controls move more towards local to the owner to kind of allow that level of control. For ranged specs it kind of sucks because for a generally less free-form mobile class like Warlock, such a control scheme isn't as appealing unless the pet also has ranged capabilities -- but it's not like they would give Fel Guard a ranged auto or something.

  15. #35
    I am Murloc! gaymer77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexplode View Post
    Why cant we have 2 classes wich a Metamorphosis specc if we have 2 holy specs and 2 resto specs?
    Last time I checked, holy priest & holy paladin and restoration druid & restoration shaman were actual specs while Metamorphosis is simply a spell that both the Vengeance demon hunter and the Havoc demon hunter currently have and previously given to Demonology warlocks in Wrath of the Lich King but was removed in Legion when Demon Hunters were added to the game. I know of no "Metamorphosis" spec in the game EVER....

  16. #36
    I don't know why Blizzard didn't let us BECOME the demonic tyrant instead of summon it, that way is the best of both worlds because I do think that's possible.

    Class fantasy becomes a demon summoner BUT there's a twist, you're also a demon yourself, in disguise, fighting for Azeroth for your own personal gains or power hungry reasons.
    Last edited by LarryFromHumanResources; 2021-06-06 at 09:52 AM.
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalador View Post
    Current demo is a really good and fun spec. The amount of warlock main i see who have never actually tried it is sad.

    More than half of the spec in this game are build/spend. Are you saying Arcane Mage is the same as Ret Pally or WW Monk and that Destro play the same as Enhc sham

    Like I get the nostalgia for an old spec but this is just rly bad take
    None of those specs are the same, but all of those specs have vastly superior implementation of build/spend compared to what Demo's been stuck with. It's one thing to build resources with instant cast attacks and spells, and its another thing to build them with a casted spell that gets increasingly more powerful the more you cast it. But Demo has the worst of both worlds: its builder is a cast time spell that does nothing except builds, and all of its damage is backloaded onto spenders. It's such a boring implementation that Blizzard had to add an entire subsystem (demonic core & demonbolt (and why isn't demonbolt soul fire? why add a new spell?) just to actually let players get to the spender part of the rotation in a reasonable amount of time.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    I don't know why Blizzard didn't let us BECOME the demonic tyrant instead of summon it, that way is the best of both worlds because I do think that's possible.

    Class fantasy becomes a demon summoner BUT there's a twist, you're also a demon yourself, in disguise, fighting for Azeroth for your own personal gains or power hungry reasons.
    My preferred implementation is to replace the talent Sacrificed Souls with Metamorphosis (replaces Demonic Tyrant). Destroy all active demons to temporarily become a demon. I did enjoy demo when it was based around meta, but I think the new version is really interesting too. I don't want to just revert to the old version unless we get it as a fourth spec, and even then I think I'd rather have that be a tank spec bringing back Dark Apotheosis.
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  19. #39
    I played my lock from vanilla-legion and he died when they changed demo

    I want the old metamorph build back, my character wouldn’t have just forgot it. That’s bad game design and lore breaking

    Secondly, I hate the way new demo plays. I can’t stand it. I don’t care if it does good damage, I don’t want to babysit 50 imps and little minions. Hell, I’d prefer it be more like BM hunter with us enslaving different big demons to use.

    I just think the current demo build is the definition of lacking imagination and kinda is indicative of this entire dev team lately

    Edit: let me jusf say that it’s my 2 cents and subjective opinion. Others may love new demo and hated old demo, and others like me love the old one vs this modern one

    What I wish is that Blizz allowed every spec ever introduced in the games history to be playable and let us choose which version you wanted to use
    Last edited by justandulas; 2021-06-07 at 10:45 PM.

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