Page 14 of 31 FirstFirst ...
4
12
13
14
15
16
24
... LastLast
  1. #261
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    NY, USA
    Posts
    39,911
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    They've never needed actual "proof" before, merely the implication. An investigation serves that purpose.
    For the public, yes. That's why I want these people dragged into court. If they're going to imply there's fraud after doing a formal government-sponsored investigation, they should be put on the stand to present their findings. I want that exact strategy dismantled in public.

    EDIT: Lemme flesh this one out. Some rando like MyPillowGuy claiming to have evidence of fraud is one thing. It's rabble-rousing and a blatant lie, but everyone who cares has already dismissed him. Cyber Ninjas are working a government contract to investigate fraud. They should be forced to report their findings on an official, perjury-applying record. "Implications" are not sufficient for a government investigation into a topic. You don't go to jail because the police implied you killed someone, you go to court and the evidence is presented. Yes, they'll leak. Yes, they'll suggest. None of that matters once they're on the stand and have to say "yes, we found fraud, here's the proof" or "no, we didn't find proof of fraud".
    Last edited by Breccia; 2021-07-27 at 03:15 PM.

  2. #262
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Washington (né California)
    Posts
    9,029
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    For the public, yes. That's why I want these people dragged into court. If they're going to imply there's fraud after doing a formal government-sponsored investigation, they should be put on the stand to present their findings. I want that exact strategy dismantled in public.

    EDIT: Lemme flesh this one out. Some rando like MyPillowGuy claiming to have evidence of fraud is one thing. It's rabble-rousing and a blatant lie, but everyone who cares has already dismissed him. Cyber Ninjas are working a government contract to investigate fraud. They should be forced to report their findings on an official, perjury-applying record. "Implications" are not sufficient for a government investigation into a topic. You don't go to jail because the police implied you killed someone, you go to court and the evidence is presented. Yes, they'll leak. Yes, they'll suggest. None of that matters once they're on the stand and have to say "yes, we found fraud, here's the proof" or "no, we didn't find proof of fraud".
    You're missing the point. A group like Cyber Ninjas does the investigation. They make outlandish claims via their "investigation" tactics, ie checking for invisible watermarks, checking for bamboo, that kind of shit. Naturally, they find nothing, and they don't want to report on that. There's nothing illegal about them checking for that shit, though. At most, they release intentionally vague "progress reports", which obviously only confuse the issue more.

    Then, the second wave occurs when people (politicians, usually) not involved in the actual investigation make claims and statements based on the ongoing testing and the vague progress reports issued by the official company. These claims and statements can be outright fabrications, and the more vague and confusing the progress reports are, the more room they have to wiggle out their justification for their batshit crazy claims. The company didn't come out and say it directly, so they can't be sued or prosecuted. The politician is just "interpreting" the data coming out, so they can't be sued or prosecuted.

    It's the political equivalent of laundering money; it's a slander-laundering scheme.

    The only way to combat this is to subpoena Cyber Ninjas to actually answer questions on the record, so unless it gets to that point, the narrative is controlled by those who have a direct and biased agenda. You're taking it as a foregone conclusion that we'll reach that point. I guess I'm not.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  3. #263
    Herald of the Titans
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Dual US/Canada
    Posts
    2,595
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    You're missing the point. A group like Cyber Ninjas does the investigation. They make outlandish claims via their "investigation" tactics, ie checking for invisible watermarks, checking for bamboo, that kind of shit. Naturally, they find nothing, and they don't want to report on that. There's nothing illegal about them checking for that shit, though. At most, they release intentionally vague "progress reports", which obviously only confuse the issue more.

    Then, the second wave occurs when people (politicians, usually) not involved in the actual investigation make claims and statements based on the ongoing testing and the vague progress reports issued by the official company. These claims and statements can be outright fabrications, and the more vague and confusing the progress reports are, the more room they have to wiggle out their justification for their batshit crazy claims. The company didn't come out and say it directly, so they can't be sued or prosecuted. The politician is just "interpreting" the data coming out, so they can't be sued or prosecuted.

    It's the political equivalent of laundering money; it's a slander-laundering scheme.

    The only way to combat this is to subpoena Cyber Ninjas to actually answer questions on the record, so unless it gets to that point, the narrative is controlled by those who have a direct and biased agenda. You're taking it as a foregone conclusion that we'll reach that point. I guess I'm not.
    It won't get to that point. The people who would be responsible for taking them to task, getting firm results, and taking them to court should those results be falsified is the very people who want them to lie and cheat. They could come out and say that their investigations proved that Democrats used the blood of unborn babies to raise the dead in order to steal votes and the AZ government will say "See! We told you Trump won!"

  4. #264
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Washington (né California)
    Posts
    9,029
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynarii View Post
    It won't get to that point. The people who would be responsible for taking them to task, getting firm results, and taking them to court should those results be falsified is the very people who want them to lie and cheat. They could come out and say that their investigations proved that Democrats used the blood of unborn babies to raise the dead in order to steal votes and the AZ government will say "See! We told you Trump won!"
    That's my point exactly. That's what I meant when I said that "the narrative is controlled by those who have a direct and biased agenda".

    This is all just a fucking pageantry smokescreen.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  5. #265
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    NY, USA
    Posts
    39,911
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    The only way to combat this is to subpoena Cyber Ninjas to actually answer questions on the record
    I think we're in agreement. This is what I was asking for, and I think it needs to be done by federal authorities or Dominion again.

  6. #266
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Washington (né California)
    Posts
    9,029
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I think we're in agreement. This is what I was asking for, and I think it needs to be done by federal authorities or Dominion again.
    I don't think federal authorities can do anything about it. It's up to each state to determine how they run an election, and AZ is thoroughly controlled by the GoP.

    And again, Dominion doesn't have the power to subpoena them outside of a lawsuit, and I don't think they have a case for a lawsuit if the scenario I laid out comes to pass. Cyber Ninjas won't have lied if they never release a full report, and the politicians can't be sued for their "interpretations", unless they're really stupid about what they say. This isn't the same thing as Dominion suing Fox News (which has deep pockets and a broad platform), or Powell and Giuliani, who both made direct legal arguments against them. I'm not sure Dominion would even bother with an attempt to sue Cyber Ninjas or any of the lying politicians.

    Buuuut, for the record, when I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    I'd honestly be surprised if we ever hear any "final" result from this process.
    ...I was more speaking about a final official "report" from the "audit" process, not a broader type of result including subpoenaed testimony from Cyber Ninjas. I just also don't think that kind of testimony is likely to happen, either.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  7. #267
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    NY, USA
    Posts
    39,911
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    I was more speaking about a final official "report" from the "audit" process, not a broader type of result including subpoenaed testimony from Cyber Ninjas.
    I think if Cyber Ninjas is going to continue to imply fraud, and those implications are being used at the state level, the House has to ensure that Cyber Ninja's results are public. Yes, states run themselves, but federal elections are serious and the House has the power to pass bills, too.

    Basically, if Cyber Ninjas doesn't gracefully back out and vanish, then they need to be pulled into the spotlight. The whole "I know there's a massive enormous world-breaking problem, and I have proof, but I'm not going to show you" needs to die in a fucking fire.

  8. #268
    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...accounts-trump

    Well, if you want the latest updates on the Maricopa County "audit"...don't go to Twitter.

    No, this isn't to make fun of how bad discussion on Twitter is, the official account for the audit has been permanently suspended alongside 7 other accounts for consistently pushing election falsehoods.

  9. #269
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    NY, USA
    Posts
    39,911
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    don't go to Twitter.
    Let me guess, the comments are filled with "MUH FIRST MENDMENT"?

    Oh...right...banned. So, no comments.

  10. #270
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    78,909
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...accounts-trump

    Well, if you want the latest updates on the Maricopa County "audit"...don't go to Twitter.

    No, this isn't to make fun of how bad discussion on Twitter is, the official account for the audit has been permanently suspended alongside 7 other accounts for consistently pushing election falsehoods.
    Like, its about the federal election, and they're speaking to the national public through Twitter (or were), so that has to make this a federal matter, right? So why can't they be prosecuted for election interference or the like?

    I get that the federal government is probably playing with kid gloves, but c'mon.


  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I get that the federal government is probably playing with kid gloves, but c'mon.
    I've been pretty shocked that this is all allowed to happen in general, but I guess our laws weren't designed for this kind of intentional, bad-faith, dishonest, blatant ratfuckery from a state political party in control of one chamber.

  12. #272
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    NY, USA
    Posts
    39,911
    The Arizona Senate has subpoena'd both Maricopa officials, and also Dominion, for what sounds like a backdoor audit of their own? They wanted routers, voting records, (from both) passwords to the voting machines, and a few other things.

    They both refused.

    To their credit, Maricopa said they would comply with a public records request, but will not hand over routers because it's a security breach. Yes, they're that worried about their own Senate, based on this circus I can't blame them. Dominion just didn't want to do it. Their lawyers claimed they don't have to comply with a subpoena because they're a private company, and that the request violated Dominion's Constitutional rights. As a reminder, Dominion took a contract from the Arizona Senate.

    "Which rights?"

    Dominion didn't say. Nor could they. The Constitution doesn't give companies rights. I suppose they could be arguing Unreasonable Search and Seizure despite taking a contract to investigate the election.

    Specifically, providing these routers puts sensitive, confidential data belonging to Maricopa County citizens — including Social Security numbers and protected health information — at risk. Further, the Maricopa County Sheriff has explained that the production of the routers would render MCSO internal law enforcement communication infrastructure extremely vulnerable to hackers
    -- Maricopa county

    The board has real work to do and little time to entertain this adventure in never-never land
    -- also Maricopa county

    "Surely the Arizona Senate denounced both groups that refused to turn over the demanded info."

    There were harsh words and contempt threats aimed at Maricopa. Nothing for Dominion that I saw.

    "Well then Maricopa will find themselves in jail within the week."

    The AZ Senate doesn't convene again until Jan 2022. For...some reason.

    "Well, then I guess they'll be in jail in six months!"

    There was a contempt vote in Feb. It failed.

    "What would the Arizona Senate do with the routers, anyhow?"

    Check the logs, see if they were hooked up to the internet during the election.

    "Why would they be?"

    They wouldn't. They use flash drives. There's also a server but that's not connected, either.

    "Why didn't they say this?"

    They did in February. There was an independent audit that backed that up. The Arizona Senate chose not to believe them.

    It seems like the AZ GOP has found a back door through all this: asking for things they know they'll never be given, or things that Dominion has broken, blame Maricopa and use it as an excuse to just run the election themselves. Rather than facts and evidence, they're looking for suspicion and conspiracy theories. Maricopa has given them almost everything they asked for, Dominion has broken multiple laws and handed over nothing.

  13. #273
    The Undying
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    34,524
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I've been pretty shocked that this is all allowed to happen in general, but I guess our laws weren't designed for this kind of intentional, bad-faith, dishonest, blatant ratfuckery from a state political party in control of one chamber.
    It's a huge problem with our system now. The GQP is taking advantage of it, and they are doing it in the blatant rat-fuckery way you've described, but they are also doing it across the nation in subtle ways, that may not see any kind of national light. They are taking a minority voting block and manufacturing a majority rule, and there is both no end in sight nor any real way to stop it.

    The 2022 House elections will be very telling. And if our former Resident Ratfucker runs in 2024, we'll see how it all plays out. The fact that the Democrats control the government right now is a god damn miracle.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    It's a huge problem with our system now. The GQP is taking advantage of it, and they are doing it in the blatant rat-fuckery way you've described, but they are also doing it across the nation in subtle ways, that may not see any kind of national light. They are taking a minority voting block and manufacturing a majority rule, and there is both no end in sight nor any real way to stop it.

    The 2022 House elections will be very telling. And if our former Resident Ratfucker runs in 2024, we'll see how it all plays out. The fact that the Democrats control the government right now is a god damn miracle.

    The 2022 stuff really worries me with how weak the Democrats largely seem to be here. They refuse to really pressure Manuchin to actually do what they need to do and again feeds into them being weak and appearance they seems hellbent on keeping.

    If they can cheat their way into a majority after all they pulled, I really don't see things getting really addressed within the coming decade or more. At that point, it really won't matter how the demographics change as the politicians will effectively be choosing whom is allowed to vote and how much their vote is allowed to count at that point with impunity as the Supreme Court won't stop them and the Federal level Democrats refused to fight when it mattered.

    I agree that it's a miracle they have control now, but if they have even this sliver of control and still can't even do what they know they NEED to do against such public attacks, I am not sure how well they can keep it, let alone build on it.

    Let's face it, the 2020 election was Trump Vs Not-Trump to a HUGE portion of the population. And many of the voters won't return on both sides of the isle without him there. So unless the Democrats can at least make very public attempts to show they are trying to do what they need to do while stopping the laws that effectively says that the Republicans can choose who throw out the votes and voters, then the odds will be stacked, potentially hopelessly, against them in the future from 2022 onward without stuff I really don't want to mention right now forcing hands.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  15. #275
    The Undying
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    34,524
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    The 2022 stuff really worries me with how weak the Democrats largely seem to be here. They refuse to really pressure Manuchin to actually do what they need to do and again feeds into them being weak and appearance they seems hellbent on keeping.

    If they can cheat their way into a majority after all they pulled, I really don't see things getting really addressed within the coming decade or more. At that point, it really won't matter how the demographics change as the politicians will effectively be choosing whom is allowed to vote and how much their vote is allowed to count at that point with impunity as the Supreme Court won't stop them and the Federal level Democrats refused to fight when it mattered.

    I agree that it's a miracle they have control now, but if they have even this sliver of control and still can't even do what they know they NEED to do against such public attacks, I am not sure how well they can keep it, let alone build on it.

    Let's face it, the 2020 election was Trump Vs Not-Trump to a HUGE portion of the population. And many of the voters won't return on both sides of the isle without him there. So unless the Democrats can at least make very public attempts to show they are trying to do what they need to do while stopping the laws that effectively says that the Republicans can choose who throw out the votes and voters, then the odds will be stacked, potentially hopelessly, against them in the future from 2022 onward without stuff I really don't want to mention right now forcing hands.
    I think Manchin has been doing what he can to support Democrats but also keep his seat in WV - that has to be a tough balancing act. Consider that Biden has already passed huge legislation, with Manchin's support, after a lot of theater but not much substance from Manchin.

    Agreed. If the GQP takes the House or the Senate, we're mostly fucked. The House will keep any legislation from being passed, and the Senate will hold up all Judicial appointments. Possibly for a VERY long time. Along with slowing/stopping legislation.

    Agreed - 2022 won't be about Trump vs Not-Trump, it will be about the effects of the state-based voting law changes, and how those laws can make a minority political party the majority rule.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I think Manchin has been doing what he can to support Democrats but also keep his seat in WV - that has to be a tough balancing act. Consider that Biden has already passed huge legislation, with Manchin's support, after a lot of theater but not much substance from Manchin.

    Agreed. If the GQP takes the House or the Senate, we're mostly fucked. The House will keep any legislation from being passed, and the Senate will hold up all Judicial appointments. Possibly for a VERY long time. Along with slowing/stopping legislation.

    Agreed - 2022 won't be about Trump vs Not-Trump, it will be about the effects of the state-based voting law changes, and how those laws can make a minority political party the majority rule.
    I can understand Manchin looking out for Manchin, but if they block HR1 and pass their stuff, how much of a chance does he really think he has? Does he think he can retain his seat afterward? At that point the Republicans will go whole hog once they are basically given the go-ahead and that won't show him respect for holding democracy back, they will rig his election against him the moment they can. Does he think he can change parties and run as a Republican? Even blocking it, he would be primaried for failing his purity test and be labeled a RINO.

    If he passes HR1 and actually pushes for that stuff where gerrymandering is outlawed and public funding matters and dark money is harder to hide, he could at least run on that in his election.

    Infrastructure, the Covid Vaccine, when it comes to the long term interests of this nation or even himself, those take a backseat to HR1 and preventing the crap the GOP is trying to push blocking legal voters from actually counting.

    Edit:

    Heck, even if the GOP doesn't go against him, you can best bet he will piss off people who will try and primary him making the election largely about his refusal to uphold his office on this issue and the Democrats won't vote for him based on that while the Republicans won't be voting in that primary.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  17. #277
    The Undying
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    34,524
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    I can understand Manchin looking out for Manchin, but if they block HR1 and pass their stuff, how much of a chance does he really think he has? Does he think he can retain his seat afterward? At that point the Republicans will go whole hog once they are basically given the go-ahead and that won't show him respect for holding democracy back, they will rig his election against him the moment they can. Does he think he can change parties and run as a Republican? Even blocking it, he would be primaried for failing his purity test and be labeled a RINO.

    If he passes HR1 and actually pushes for that stuff where gerrymandering is outlawed and public funding matters and dark money is harder to hide, he could at least run on that in his election.

    Infrastructure, the Covid Vaccine, when it comes to the long term interests of this nation or even himself, those take a backseat to HR1 and preventing the crap the GOP is trying to push blocking legal voters from actually counting.

    Edit:

    Heck, even if the GOP doesn't go against him, you can best bet he will piss off people who will try and primary him making the election largely about his refusal to uphold his office on this issue and the Democrats won't vote for him based on that while the Republicans won't be voting in that primary.
    Manchin's position is very complicated, being a democrat in a very conservative state, or apparently conservative. And I'm not absolving him of his actions; it's clear he's beholden to big corporations. However, HR1 is dead in the water. It can't pass using Reconcilliation, and it won't get to a floor vote because of the filibuster. The only path to life for HR1 is voting out the filibuster, which Manchin and Salina have already said they won't do. Now, it's possible they are holding their cards close, waiting for a vote to be stymied by the filibuster to come out against it, but we don't know yet.

    Agreed that if Manchin switches parties he's done - the purity test would see him primaried.

    HR1 itself has several now-Constitutional issues, especially when it comes to dark money. Citizens United and the SCOTUS case gutting the Voting Rights act might see HR1 die in appeals five years down the road, and never become effective law because law suits will prevent it's implementation until resolved, and SCOTUS will kill it once it gets to them (if that doesn't make sense, shout).

    Agreed about the long term interests of the nation - HR1 is key, but see above for my opinion.

    Now, Infrastructure, COVID relief - those have been large bills that the Democrats can point to voting for and slay their opponents when they brag on them and their records show they voted against it.

    I don't see anyone trying to primary Manchin as a Democrat. But we'll see.

    For me - the big issue is the lack of thought that goes into elections. People are voting for all the wrong things imo, and that won't change. It's all partisan and lack of thought. Vote Trump/GQP and believe the lies or face admitting you're wrong. And people by their nature do not like to admit they are wrong.

    How do you fix that here in the United States? I have no idea.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    The Arizona Senate has subpoena'd both Maricopa officials, and also Dominion, for what sounds like a backdoor audit of their own? They wanted routers, voting records, (from both) passwords to the voting machines, and a few other things.

    They both refused.

    To their credit, Maricopa said they would comply with a public records request, but will not hand over routers because it's a security breach. Yes, they're that worried about their own Senate, based on this circus I can't blame them. Dominion just didn't want to do it. Their lawyers claimed they don't have to comply with a subpoena because they're a private company, and that the request violated Dominion's Constitutional rights. As a reminder, Dominion took a contract from the Arizona Senate.

    "Which rights?"

    Dominion didn't say. Nor could they. The Constitution doesn't give companies rights. I suppose they could be arguing Unreasonable Search and Seizure despite taking a contract to investigate the election.


    -- Maricopa county


    -- also Maricopa county

    "Surely the Arizona Senate denounced both groups that refused to turn over the demanded info."

    There were harsh words and contempt threats aimed at Maricopa. Nothing for Dominion that I saw.

    "Well then Maricopa will find themselves in jail within the week."

    The AZ Senate doesn't convene again until Jan 2022. For...some reason.

    "Well, then I guess they'll be in jail in six months!"

    There was a contempt vote in Feb. It failed.

    "What would the Arizona Senate do with the routers, anyhow?"

    Check the logs, see if they were hooked up to the internet during the election.

    "Why would they be?"

    They wouldn't. They use flash drives. There's also a server but that's not connected, either.

    "Why didn't they say this?"

    They did in February. There was an independent audit that backed that up. The Arizona Senate chose not to believe them.

    It seems like the AZ GOP has found a back door through all this: asking for things they know they'll never be given, or things that Dominion has broken, blame Maricopa and use it as an excuse to just run the election themselves. Rather than facts and evidence, they're looking for suspicion and conspiracy theories. Maricopa has given them almost everything they asked for, Dominion has broken multiple laws and handed over nothing.
    I could have sworn at least 2 Republican Arizona state senators have come out against the audit now and that lost Fann the majority she needed to issue subpoenas. Both Paul Boyer and Michelle Ugenti-Rita are now calling the audit botched and horribly mishandled and are pulling their support. This only came out a few days ago so possibly Fann lost her majority support (14D+2R vs 14R) even with a tie breaker to issue subpoenas killing the audit. Also now with an Arizona superior court judge ordering the release of all audit records from the Senate and Cyber Ninja for Arizona public records statute. This could mean that the audit could finally be ending and not with Cyber Ninja bullshit faked audit but all their data being put on the public record.

    https://apnews.com/article/arizona-e...281291ca9e6dcf
    https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/judg...211200536.html

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Manchin's position is very complicated,
    its not that complicated. Hes a capitalist who believes in nothing.

  20. #280
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Aelia Capitolina
    Posts
    59,338
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    its not that complicated. Hes a capitalist who believes in nothing.
    Yeah, I'm not sure why people are authoring these massive thinkpieces when it's really as simple as he's a corrupt shit - especially when you take into account he often votes against things which are actually popular in his constituency.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •